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Ok instead of jumping threads I figured I'd just put all my trials and tribulation in one thread. I didn't want to spam the forums.. 3 Weeks ago I installed the EBL Flash-II on my 85' Vette. I did not have a WB02 at the time but I got it running. Did some learns, played with the timing tables, etc etc etc. Last week I installed the Wide Band 02 for better tuning. I started the wide band tunes from the first tunes. I got some help from @Street Lethal and @Larry and a few others. I also keep going down the rabbit hole and reading 20+ threads on tuning. Too many changes, too many learns, too many BINS, with forgotten settings, too many SA changes from stock on top of all the rest, etc etc , trying to jump to fast with other things people tried on other thread, yes newbie mistakes. Disable EGR, Dis able PE, disable change this etc etc.. Enough, start slow and do it right... @RBob informed me in a question thread that I just needed for WB learns only need to set the closed loop enable temperature high.
Back to Square 1 the right way!
1. Reloaded the 3005 Start BIN file.
2. Copied stock L98 SA tables to that BIN3.
3. Set Closed Loop enable Temp maxed.
4. Flashed....
Car runs fine, stable idle and drove down the road fine.. I did 2 VE-Learns over 45 minutes with long drives over 10 miles down back roads, city drives, highway runs, and power braking to hit every cell I could going different routes the whole time...
The results are below with attached BINS and Data logs. If anyone would care to guild me with the next steps I'll do my best to try and stay patient and do the right thing this time. Thanks again for all the help from before.
Results of VE LEARN SESSION 1
Next Learn Session flashed as learned. Session 2
Final BIN file after session 2 Currently Flashed/Running
Disable EGR, Dis able PE, disable change this etc etc..
Enough, start slow and do it right...
EGR should already come disabled, and PE disable is meant to allow for the system to Learn Closed Loop while avoiding an Open Loop trigger. Was curious to see what the right way looked like (kidding), so I just looked at your second datalog... your idle AFR needs to be corrected for 14.7 because you're idling at 13.5 being in an Open Loop corrected constant. Adjust your Open Loop AFR idle target, as well as your Open Loop fuel grid...
EGR should already come disabled, and PE disable is meant to allow for the system to Learn Closed Loop while avoiding an Open Loop trigger. Was curious to see what the right way looked like (kidding), so I just looked at your second datalog... your idle AFR needs to be corrected for 14.7 because you're idling at 13.5 being in an Open Loop corrected constant. Adjust your Open Loop AFR idle target, as well as your Open Loop fuel grid...
- Rob
Thanks Rob... But where exactly is this setting? Attached is my current BIN file. After starting from square one,I started watching the AFR gauge and what the WUD shows when driving (both match) and the AFR is much more stable then before. It use to jump all over the place now it is pretty constant and just varies up or down a bit depending on what the load is. It use to be all over the damn place when driving. I currently have "Closed Loop - CTS Threshold" set to max 149.75 to stay in Open loop. I do a learn when ever I move the car to try and catch any cells I missed the last run. Then do a Smooth with .5 on both low and high VE Tables. "PE TPS% Enable Threshold" is still at defaults. I have adjusted "INJ - MPG Injector Flow Constant" to get the HUD to match true Instant MPG and AVG settings. Beyound that I have not changed any settings.
* Open Loop - Idle Lean Limit; change it from 13.50 to 14.70 AFR...
* Open Loop - AFR vs RPM vs VAC; blend in the areas where you idle into off idle...
If you decide to go back to Closed Loop later on, just put it back to where it was.
Ok so why would I want to go back to closed Loop from open loop? Im doing all my learns with WB in open loop.
Closed Loop vs Open Loop is honestly based on preference. For a daily driver I would run Closed Loop unless you plan on running constant Wideband Learning corrections every time you drive the car. Closed Loop is meant to monitor the engine through feedback because sensors and mechanical components fail, its not just based on AFR correction, hence Closed Loop feedback...
Ok so after getting the SA tables good, there is no reason to stay on open loop then. Do you redo the learns in closed lop or that is what the ECU is doing, correcting itself to the learns..
And this is what I want to get rid of in the "Open Loop - AFR vs RPM vs VAC" but if Im in closed look it don't matter leave as is?
I changed Open Loop - Idle Lean Limit; to 14.70 AFR
When you're in Closed Loop, the Idle AFR is set to 14.70. Remember, the VE is based on 14.70. Off idle, you will transition into Open Loop, in which you will have a targeted AFR depending on what it is you are doing; cruise, decel, power enrichment, etc. If you are running Open Loop, though the Wideband can tune the VE via Learning, when the Learning is off, it is what it is. This is why many will use the Wideband to tune, but then revert back to Closed Loop because its' job is done. With the system itself you still need to run both O2 sensors, it was never really meant to run the Wideband as a constant, though you can if you want to...
Ok did a quick 5 mile VE learn one last time. Idle cleaned up a bit more. The cAFR is darn close to the WB AFT reading most of the time.. I assume thats a good thing.. What I have noticed every time I do a Learn the same areas always have new data. Between 800-3000 RPM under a smooth acceleration I always get a bunch of 7-9 +/-. I flash again and do a learn and same thing. That same area changes again as if the car can't make up its mind.
What I have noticed every time I do a Learn the same areas always have new data. Between 800-3000 RPM under a smooth acceleration I always get a bunch of 7-9 +/-. I flash again and do a learn and same thing. That same area changes again as if the car can't make up its mind.
.... and this is exactly why you would want to run Closed Loop for everyday driving. The density of the air changes, the temperature of the engine changes, both have an effect on the air/fuel ratio. The AFR is never set in stone. Unless you are running down the track at a specific coolant temperature and air density then it's best to just stick with Closed Loop because there is a correction threshold, meaning when the ECM see's the air/fuel deviate away from stoich (feedback from the O2 sensor), it will correct. This is why in your other thread I told you to keep your Learn window tight in relation with your thermostat and fan settings. Open Loop uses a pre-set scaler to compensate for coolant temperature changes, Closed Loop uses O2 correction. Like I was telling you, once the VE is Learned with the wideband, you are not really done Learning with the Wideband because as you just demonstrated, the AFR is constantly changing. This is where Closed Loop shines. I'm sure your next question will be then why can't you use the Wideband in Closed Loop.
.... I'm sure your next question will be then why can't you use the Wideband in Closed Loop.
- Rob
Ok I'll ask...< learning experience> WHy can't I use the WB in closed loop....Ok so now is when I set Closed Loop - CTS Threshold back to the stock 48 and see how she acts? It's running a whole bunch better then with the stock ECM and MAF I know. Before I tried upping the SA-Main tables and give it more timing and I was flabbergasted I could never get her to see knocks, Finely I said something is gonna break and set them back to stock. New engines are expensive and this one has just 3000 miles on it. lol
Next steps?
Some systems will use it, and some won't. Just like some systems will have Wideband correction during boost pressure, and some won't. It really comes down to risk. I believe Bob experimented with the concept years back, but the air/fuel would come up funky in certain areas, from a feature perspective, like alky control for instance. However, if it's one thing the narrowband knows, is stoich. Some see them as detrimental, and others don't. I myself am of the latter group....
Some systems will use it, and some won't. Just like some systems will have Wideband correction during boost pressure, and some won't. It really comes down to risk. I believe Bob experimented with the concept years back, but the air/fuel would come up funky in certain areas, from a feature perspective, like alky control for instance. However, if it's one thing the narrowband knows, is stoich. Some see them as detrimental, and others don't. I myself am of the latter group....
- Rob
Are you saying once I have the learns down to where hey are now as far as the AFR (close), I no longer need the WB02? So what do I do, enable Closed loop and disconnect the WB fro the EBL?
So my next steps in tuning is what?
You will run the Wideband the way we all do, as a tracker. If you feel you got your air/fuel to its' closest point with the Learns (0% correction), then reset your Bin for Closed Loop, and datalog. You should have a rock solid INT/BLM reading in conjunction with your Wideband AFR throughout Idle, Part Throttle and Wide Open Throttle. You will more than likely fine tune in Closed Loop, as the idea is the least amount of O2 correction as possible. That's all there is to it. No magic whatsoever. You are essentially tuning the same way you would with carb albeit using voltage feedback. Air, fuel and spark. Idle, part throttle, and wide open throttle. Cold, warm and hot. That's all it is...
Ok so make sure Im getting nothing but 1-2s or even zeros during the WB learns. AT that point turn on the Closed loop and start logging. Watch my INT and BLM and they should not be far apart from one another if at all and fine tune to get to that point. I think I got that right.
From there we'll discuss your future twin turbo plans for the car.... - Rob
Don't even go there.. I've been eyeing the Procharger setup already for a few months designed for the C4. I've spent over $12K on this car in the last year (bought in Oct/2020) with restoring interior, wheels and tires, new engine and transmission, exhaust and various suspension upgrades. Hell whats another $5K .. I even have the 3-Bar MAP sitting here on my desk for no reason other then to have it..
Throw that MAP sensor on. I run a 3-Bar MAP even though I pulled the turbo off of the car last year, no resolution loss whatsoever. We'll have that Procharger dialed in in a matter of minutes. If you get one though, spring for the D1X...
High Output Intercooled System with D-1 10+ boost, Intercooler 2 core (85-89) 75%+ HP Gain...
I was thinking the High Output Intercooled System with P600B ,
Differences? The other seems more adjustable with 8-12% boost
Maybe I'll toss that 3Bar on tomorrow just for the hell of it.
Pulley boost is a thing of the past. The idea is a larger supercharger for boost to come in much earlier because it is RPM based, controlled by a wasetgate on the cold side which regulates boost pressure so you won't exceed the pressure you want. So while the D1 may see 10-psi at "x" RPM, the D1X will see it lower, and that is a tremendous difference that you will feel, believe me. Paxton jumped on board and sell one for their supercharged Mustangs, I believe they call it their Torque Booster, but the concept itself had been around for decades...
Ya on sale for just $6149.00 LOL, whats another $1500. Ok ya thats the next "major" purchase but not anytime "real" soon
I'm honestly speaking from experience. If I had a dollar for every person I knew or read about who started with a P1SC, but then upgraded to something bigger in the not so distant future....
So if you're going to buy one, buy the right one the first time...
Ya I tend to go big or dont go at all, I can say this as I look over at a $10K 200Gallon Saltwater fish tank with $200 worth of fish in it,, Hey they need a nice place to live to..
I thought I saw the steps someplace but can not for the life of me find them. Is there a way to datalog with TunerPro itself with the EBL? No Learns, just use TurnerPro to log the data and play it back?. All I have TP for is to read e bins but though it would nice to just be able to datalog and or make live adjustments once in a while on a long drive to see the effect.
You can log via the ALDL port, but that is mostly useless. Maybe you missed it, but the WUD can data log along with playback. And this is with the high speed connection.
You can log via the ALDL port, but that is mostly useless. Maybe you missed it, but the WUD can data log along with playback. And this is with the high speed connection.
RBob.
Thanks RBob, I was just curious Been doing VE learns all week with a few 100 miles highway runs. Yes in Texas back roads you can do 55-85mph to hit all the cells
Getting less and less corrections as I go.
Once I have a clean VE table, what is the next step in tuning to perfect it even more?
After VE tables level out is it time to enable Closed lop again to maybe help with MPG on the highway?
Ok I have been doing VE-Learns on the tune for a week. I have found a route 15 miles both ways that lets me fill in pretty much every cell (90%) when I'm done. Nothing over 4800rpm.
I have run a learn, smoothed, and repeated at least 30 times. After each learn I come back right to were I started pretty much. More smoothing..
Anyone offer some hints or steps on were to go next with this tune?
Things I have noticed and settings..
At 45-65 mph under 2K rpm when lean cruise kicks in I'm seeing 20-24mpg average. WB AFR jumps around 16-17
Soon as I get to 2100rmp at 75mph it drops to 16-17mpg. WB AFR jumps around 16-17
Learning is limited to 190deg - 205degs and it stays pretty much in that range at all times.
Closed Loop is disabled. Only flag I have disabled.
I can't feel any surging or flat spots while driving. Seem pretty good.
But these peaks and valleys will not go away. After each Learn they come back.
Current VE Tables before I smooth out again. And BIN attached.
Just my opinion, so please take it as such.... but it looks like you are fighting reversion every time you do a Learn. If you have gotten the VE close already, then no more Learns, manually adjust the VE by hand where you need it. You also have to look at your kPa at that RPM and MPH, as there is a targeted AFR dependent on kPa that ranges an average for MPG, based off of the VE table. You can increase the air/fuel target to get it closer to a 16.50 average throughout the scaler in the higher kPa areas, but it sounds like the VE keeps getting misadjusted through the Learns due to reversion. Record the area you are in during 2000 to 2400-RPM, as well as your kPa, then go into the VE and manually pull a percentage out. Don't rely on the Learn, because if there is enough backpressure at those low RPM's, then you're fighting reversion...
I always value your option Rob Reason I asked.. I have to run to the next down over after work, I'll do a datalog there and back it's all highway.. What AFR should I be looking for? Match the WB readings or what?
When should closed look be reenabled? any other steps I can take to fine tune it as I drive? I can log 10-15 miles a day in all kinds of driving conditions.
Remember that the Learns are just meant to get you started with the system, you don't need to keep doing them. You're already up and running now, so you can start looking at the data and making corrections to the VE based on what the engine is telling you. Set your Highway Mode AFR where you want it based on kPa location, and if you're running too fat in those areas, pull fuel from those areas in the VE. Don't drag it down too much, just highlight the cell area and calculate in increments of 1% until you are where you need to be. Don't rely on the Learns anymore...
Ok been kinda busy at work for a week or so, so trying to get back to working on the tune, Thanks @Street Lethal for the reply. So I have closed loop back enabled, and the BIN hasn't been changed since the last learn. I'll try and fine tune manually from here out. So a little guidance please.
As Im doing datalogs and watching the WB AFR as I drive, what am I trying to do? I see I'm running very rich on cold start for about 30 seconds. So I need to lean out that area just a bit. I'm watching for SRK Knock and I saw 1 cell with 22 counts, So im going to back down that SA cell a bit. As I watch the WUD while cruising around. I see the cAFR is off from what the WB AFR is show, do I adjust that area to try and get the cAFR to match close to the WB AFR?
How does the INT & BLM come into play?
This is a great discussion, I've been on vacation with no internet so I'm catching up now. I've never had the cAFR match the WB AFR when cold. I just set the AFR multiplier vs CTS so it runs and drives good when cold and I don't worry about the numbers. And as for WB VE learns, as Street Lethal said, get them close and edit by hand. Correct me if I am wrong, but In open loop VE learns do not change the fueling until you load the new BIN. It is just calculating what it should be and sometimes it overshoots. That's why repeated learns sometimes bounce around so much. If you want to see something interesting in your DataLog go to data analysis and create a dump log and open it in Excel. It will show you much more detail like dTPS, tpsAE, dMAP, mapAE, aePW, WB AFR and much more.
Yes, Larry is spot on, that is how I do it too. Once the VE is tuned down low for stoich, the system knows to multiply the difference to obtain a specific AFR at colder temps in Open Loop. RBob's math is perfect, not that I ever second guessed it, but I always found myself going right back to what he initially had it set for once the VE was tuned to stoich. Back in the day, I would change it ahead of time to get the engine running where I needed it to when first starting a new tune, then revert back to what he had once stoich was obtained in the VE. However now I just leave the OL values alone, and feather the throttle for a new tune to get it to operating temp, then tune the VE to stoich by adding or subtracting from the idle VE area while its heated up, and its done. So, everyone has a scaled AFR at a specific temperature that we all go by depending on the fuel being used, and in colder temps before Closed Loop enables, the multiplier is used to obtain a richer AFR off of the VE tables 14.7 base (which is what your Learns shoot for), and as the engine heats up, the Open Loop scaler will scale itself down to 0 just before Closed Loop enables.
When Closed Loop enables at roughly 120* F, the targeted AFR then switches to 14.7 AFR because at this temperature, the O2 correction now has enough Learning leeway to maintain stoich without exceeding the correction limitations. In a stock OBD-1 ECM, I believe it is about a 6% correction window before it loses control. So you will see the O2 values swing back and fourth to maintain that 14.7 from 120*F to wherever you have your operating temperature set for. This is why I always encourage everyone to also set their IAC steps at operating temp while you tune the VE, because they too are scaled down from a Cold Start, though with larger camshafts, you may need to raise max steps as well as the speed of the decay rate. As far as how the INT and BLM work, the value of 128 is considered a center point of the range of 0-255 (halved). Above 128 you are adding fuel, below 128, and it is pulling fuel. The values represent a correction for either a rich or lean condition. The system will use the information from the O2 sensor to control the INT, adding in small increments either way which reaches a threshold, for either rich or lean, so it knows to either add or pull. It does this extremely fast.
Been doing VE learns all week with a few 100 miles highway runs. Yes in Texas back roads you can do 55-85mph to hit all the cells 
