I've got a 400sbc with stock heads.. My stock alternator (63amp) went, so I would like to upgrade now that I need a new one anyway.. I want it to be able to handle an electric fan when I swap out my flex fan..

Any recommendations? I heard that the '84 H.O. Z28 alt. is a direct swap.. It has 94amps.. And I've also heard to just forget the SI's and get a CS-130 or CS-144...

What would be entailed in that swap? Have to redo wiring? New brackets? etc.. Any info would be appreciated.


I'm also having a problem with my brackets.. Have a long water pump. Upper bracket mounts to intake, lower to water pump.. I picked up a replacement-brand new 63amp alt..Same as I had on it. But the fan hits the bracket.. Need like 1/16th" to clear.. Would it just need a smaller fan/pulley? cant understand why though... So I just wanna return it & upgrade..

thanks guys

 

If your car is carbed and your not running a big stereo the 63 amp alt should be fine for electric fans. If it is a standard gm alt you can buy a rebuild kit for it like 15 bucks it was probably just the regulater that went bad.

 

thanks alot for the response.. It is carbbed & I dont have any amplifier for my stereo & dont plan on adding one..
I wound up getting a brand new (not reman) 63 Amp Alternator from Autozone.. The reason I am concerned about the amperage output is b/c I have been told that the taurus electric fan pulls 40amps when low speed kicks on, then a quick 70amps when the high speed kicks on.. But I plan on wiring the high speed to a toggle switch to control manually just in case.. I figure as long as I run a 40amp relay, I should be ok..

But how about when driving say at night, in the rain.. What kind of a draw is pulled from the headlights & wipers in addition to if the fan where to kick on? Would the stock alt still be sufficient?

I think it will, but I am by far no electrical expert and just want to be sure.. I already got the fan, just need to spring for a wiring kit..

If I had to change the alternator b/c it might not be powerful enough, then I was just going to put in a thermal type clutch fan instead b/c it would be cheaper.

thanks again..

 

I have an amp meter if i get a chance tomorrow and its not raining i will try to get a reading with the headlights and wipers on to let you know what the draw is. Thats alot of pull from one fan. I have two 12" fans and I dont think they pull close to that much power, but I do have a powermaster 140 amp alt.

 

Stock alternator on my 87 IROC is a Delco 105 amp. I don't see putting in such a small amp (63) one.

 

No fan draws 40 amps. Max about 15 when it first starts, usually they settle down to around 8-10 when at speed. The 63 amp unit is fine. The SI is also a good unit, better than the CS 130 unless you get a "D" version. The 63 and 100 amp units have close to the same output at average rpm anyway. The gen is less important than a good battery. Get a battery with a higher amp/hr rating and you will be fine.

 

Hey Danno, thanks for the response.. But now, I am all confused.. See, a couple of guys from another board who were running the electric fan from 3.8L Taurus in the 2nd gens, told me opposite of what you are.. I'm not saying you, or anyone is wrong.. If I knew what was right, I wouldnt be asking this question.. But I was told the SI alt's basically suck & dont hold voltage @ low RPM, and CS series were way superior..
And they also told me about the amperage draw.. Wish I had saved the info.. They actually tested it at both low & high speeds & got those readings..

As is right now, I dont have a/c in my car.. But like today driving home from work, Idling @ a stop light, had my wipers & headlights on b/c of the rain, voltage was @ like 16-17 on my guage.. turned on my defroster, and it dropped to 13.. That is with the new alternator & a 3-month old battery that was recharged @ the auto parts store when I put in the new alternator .. So now if I had that fan kick on at the same time, I think I would have been in trouble.. Or at least my charging system.. Am I right or wrong??

I just dotn wanna go through the hassle of spending more $$$ & then blowing another alternator.. Wish I had a solid answer so I new what to do.. As of right now, I am considering looking for a cheap set of LT1 fans, or just putting in a clutch-fan...

If I went to the junkyard & picked up the electric fan from a v-8 third gen, would it be sufficient for my 400?? It does have a tendancy to run hot..


Again, thanks alot for everyone's help & info.. Appreciate it & any additional help you may offer.

Joe

 

Talk to a Ford tech, he'll tell you the same thing. That kind of current for an electric fan is nut's. Peak current is drawn when the fan spins up from a cold start. My 89 with dual fans and I measured it was about 18 amps pulsed(one fan) when the fan spun up and settled down to around 8-10 amps when at speed. With an entirely stock system and a 105 amp CS-130 my 89 would drop down below 13 volts with the fans on, heater and defroster(thats the current hog) at idle. Thats entirely normal and will be just as bad with a CS as with an Si unit. Niether generator or any one for that matter has very much idle output and it's not that important. I even upgraded to a 140 amp unit as was expected it was a little worse since most larger amp units typically have less at idle. You won't be in trouble as long as the battery is good, the gen does not run the car as most so called experts will tell you. The battery does, the gen only maintains the battery at approx 75% of rated charge at any given time. Thats why a higher amp/hr rating is the best way to attack large current draw. The GM CS-130D attacked that problem, I run one from 99 Cavalier with a different voltage regulator. I has a more aggressive charging curve a lower RPM. Either the CS or the Si will be fine, because there is no way that Ford made a fan that drew 70 amps. Even the GM CS-144 is only rated for 124 amps in the vehicle and you don't see anywhere near that until you get up in the high RPM range. There are many myths about what generators do, if you want more info PM me. One note, a peak or momentary draw is not anything to worry about. It's the average sustained current that's more important and at idle unless that's all you do the 65 amp unit should do OK.

 

I may do that.. I'll try an email a ford tech or stop by a local dealer & speak to someone in the parts dept.. If they say the same, then I'll just give it a shot n drop it in..

Thanks alot for your help.

Joe

 

Just talked to a Ford tech. He laughed when I said 40 amps. He said it's around 15. Ford of Englewood, NJ if you're interested.

 

140
I just did the conversion in my truck and am about to do the same in the camaro.
The trucks had CS130 up to 1995. In 96 they introduced the CS144 and CS130D. the 130D is the same size as the 130, but with a different connector and internals.

The CS130, 130D, and 144 all use the same brackets. The 130D has a distinct plug. My truck had a 130, and I put a 144 in it today. Works great. If it will fit in the camaro I will put one in its place as well.

 

91 GM manual for the vette shows 124 amps expected for vehicle use with a 144. Never expect full output from any gen on the vehicle. Tests are run at specific rpm using a carbon pile. Under normal operating conditions expect about on average half of the gens capability. Thats why the "D" is different. It addressed the overdrive transmissions and lockup converters resulting in low average engine RPM. I use a "D" on my 89 camaro, it works better than either the 144 or straight 130. Yes, the plugs are different. About $16 for a new plug, and if you use the correct regulator all you need is the tan sense wire on the plug, you can eliminate the red field wire that the 130 uses.

 

We need to sue for false advertising then.
Which vette are you refering to (which year?)

CS144 truck version (forgot part number) wasnt available until 96. Different part numbers than the ones from the late 80s/early 90s.

 

The 144 was available to my knowledge on certain 87 up models, one that comes to mind was the BC4 package. It's still a moot point because as stated the average charging curves are all pretty close unless you get into the higher RPM range that does not happen in the real world. The are a couple of web sites that show actual charging curves for the 63, 100 and 140 amp units. You will see that below 3k rpm they average respectively from 25 to 40 amps. Also regulator IC temp is also a factor, as they start to charge aggressively they back down as the hybrid IC heats up. The "D" will actually completely shut off if the IC temp goes over 280 degrees. There is no doubt that a 140 amp unit will more aggressively charge the battery, but that also is a compromise. Batteries last longer with a lower charge rate. Hitting the battery with 50-90 amps severly shortens it's life expectancy. As I have said in countless other posts the generator only maintains the battery and usually around 75-80% of it's A/hr capacity. The GM engineering people look at engine size, electrical load demand and battery amp/hr rating when selecting a gen for a specific model. They then select a gen that factors all those issues. More is not always better.

 

More may not ALWAYS be better but it's a pretty good bet on ALTERNATOR capacity.

Add ALL the SUSTAINED loads the system may incur at any particular time;

Lights
AC
Windshield Wipers
Defroster
Defogger
Etc.
Etc

Add 50% to that load figure.
Get an alternator that can SUPPLY that amount for 100% of the time.

That will probably be a CS-144 alternator.

Your BATTERY will last MUCH LONGER if you do this.
So will your ALTERNATOR.

 

Right
And by the alternator only provides the load that is needed by the system. If the system isnt needing amps the alternator will be easier to spin.

 

The reason for that is because the CS144 is available in different amp ratings, just as the CS130 is available in 85 or 105 amps. The amp capacity is determined by the stator windings. Off the top of my head, 140, 120, and 108 amps are the amp ratings I've seen cs144's in, although the 108 is rather rare. The alternator called for in that vette must have been the 120 amp model.

 

It was the 140 amp unit. Output of an alt is determined by TWO things, field intensity and stator. In most real world applications in the vehicle you never see anything close to the gens full capability. In fact if you full field just about any gen you will probably lose the rectifier pack in minutes assuming you have the proper load on the output.

 

One more output determinant: Load. The alternator will only put out as much amps as it takes to maintain the regulator's target voltage. That's why their rated output can be achieved with the carbon pile...it's possible to apply as much load as desired.

I have a CS144 that I can get to put out 120-125 amps all day long...and it has put out as much as 143amps. It's on a John Deere combine. That thing is entirely electrically driven. 70 amps worth of headlights, everything mechanical is engaged with electromagnetic clutches, everything hydraulic is actuated with electric solenoid coils.

If you have an alternator not achieving rated output, you have one of two things. A weak alternator, or insufficient load capacity for performing a load test.

 

With all due respect I fully understand the comments you are making. I have worked in and taught electronics for over 30 yrs and was rebuilding old Delcotrons before most of the younger guys here were born. The primary current source whether its a combine or a car is the battery. The gen is generally only capable of maintaining the battery and at best it's only going to keep the battery at around 75-80% of it's capacity. I don't have the thread handy so you can look at the GM charging curves but typically at about 2-3k RPM they put out around 25-40 amps give or take depending on the gen in question. The carbon pile test is only used as a way of determining the gens peak output. You draw 100 amps from any gen without the battery using only the gen for current the diodes will fail in short order. The CS 130D gens on later GM cars have a more aggressive charging curve and they go through diode packs like you would not believe. The diode packs can get so hot they melt the solder where it attaches to the stator. The 144 is a much beefier unit and will take sustained heat longer but even it will not take as you say 120 amp current delivery stand alone.

 

I understand your point. Alternator amp ratings are maximum capacity ratings, not continuous duty ratings. The point I was trying to make was that an alternator should be able to achieve it's rated output. I wasn't saying it should be able to run at that rate all day. I've only worked on a half dozen alternators, and after I've put new brushes in them, they've all achieved their their rated output.

I've been working on that combine all week, and I rechecked my amps again, and this time it was only running 100 amps with all accessories running...when I checked it the other day, the batteries must have been down a bit.

Also, I have to fess up. One of my figures was wrong. The 120-125 amps figure must be more down around 100, and I was wrong to say all day long, as the headlights are only run at night.


You seem to know a bit about alternators. I'd like to pick your brain for a bit. I've never worked on a CS130D, but I would like to. Is there a CS130-D with traditional alternator mounting points? The one with about a 2 inch pivot mount, and then an adjustment ear 180 degrees opposite from it. If they made one like that, do you know what vehicles had them? I get my alternators from salvage yards and rebuild them myself. Next time I need an alt, I'd like to try as -D and see how it fares.


EDIT:
This is the only alt output chart I've found on the internet. Is it the one you were talking about?
http://207.158.221.52/gw/alt/edge_Al...or_Theory.html

 

I put a D in my 89 rock. Much better charging curve at lower rpm, solved the problem with the tach bouncing to the turn signals when the AC and the dual fans are running. The stator is pressed into the front housing as opposed to the sandwich design in earlier Delco units. I used a D from my daughters 98 Cavalier and reclocked it, but I had to remove the stator(very difficult). Couple of things about the D you need to know is first the clocking issue and second what vehicle it came from. GM uses several different regulators(the ASVR) type. In the Cavalier they use the PCM for control and the plug voltages are 5 and around 2-4 volts for sense. I used a reg from a 97 blazer or a Renard D-702 single wire reg. You can eliminate the heavy red wire at the plug or the old field supply and use the tan/brn sense wire with a 560 ohm resistor in series. Also the plugs are different. The Cav had a burnt diode pack, got it through NAPA. I hooked up with an alt shop and they now will sell me parts, the reg ran about $30. Total parts including the plug were around $75. Nice thing about the D is that all parts excluding the bearings are accessible by removing the back cover, you don't need to crack it open. You can replace the brushes in about 5 minutes once you have done a few. With the D version GM addressed the problem of low output since so many cars never see much above 2k rpm. I had an "iceberg" 130 I converted with the 140 amp kit and the 100 amp D has it all over the 130 as far as low rpm charging is concerned. Once I moved the stator and reclocked it it fit right in. I had to elongate the holes in the rear support, the D is offset by a couple of mm. If you get a D you might want to have an alt shop do the stator for you but it was the best change I ever made.