83ho86tpi

I have a 86 tpi automatic TA.
I was all psyched to start my new engine for the first time KOEO and my fans turn on & the check engine light flashes at me while the electric connection gadget on the charcoal canister (or that area) makes a clicking noise. This is with Key on engine off KOEO. The IAC sensor clicks also, even with the key out. I did not try to start it because something is obviously wrong. Everything seems to be hooked up. I am guessing I got the ground wires / starter / or wires that bolt to the back of the heads mixed up or on wrong.

What order do the wires go? I am not sure what ones should be bolted together and what ones use the star ground washer, or what side of the wires the star washers go on.


Here are how I have my wires done:
1) starter: 1 small wire going to the small post, 1 black ground wire on the big post, 1 red wire on the big post, 2 red wires with one connector on the big post. I searched around here and that should be correct.

2) drivers side head has 1 bolt total in it holding 2 connectors. Both connectors are made with two wires, the first one has a bigger black wire along with a little black wire. The other has a black white stripe wire and a tan black stripe wire on the connector. All of these wires touch eachother and the head.

3) passengers side head has 2 bolts in it. The bolt closest to the distributor has a connector with a single black white striped wire and then a star washer then the ground to body wire. These all touch eachother and the head. The other bolt has one connector made of 2 wires, a black white striped wire and a tan wire are on that one connector.

Does anyone know how these wires should go on the back of the heads?

Vader

Gotta love that avitar...

It certainly sounds as if it is in diagnostic mode, meaning the ECM terminal 'A9" is either grounded somewhere, the CALPAK or PROM has a problem, or the ECM didn't passt the POST up routine. Does the SES lamp "bounce" when the ignition is initially turned on? (On briefly, off briefly, then remains on?)

Vader

Hey, Moe! I just noticed you have as many posts as cubic inches.

Why, I oughtta...

83ho86tpi

Hey fellas, spread out!!!
The ses light seems to flash at random at first, then goes into the diagnostic mode code 12.

I found it is the connector that is on the passengers side head. It is a 2 on 1 connector with a black white striped wire along with a tan wire. The clicking / fan / sensor problems go away when I disconnect it. But it comes back when I try to hook it up.

Any ideas?

Vader

Ironically, the diagnostic request line (ALDL Terminal 'B' ) is supposed to be wired to the ECM connection 'A9' via a black/white wire.

If this is an aftermarket, donor, or altered wire harness, I'd strongly suspect that the wire is not supposed to be in that ground terminal connection. You can meter continuity of the wire back to the ECM to be certain.

Is this a stock harness?

83ho86tpi

original wire harness that had fire damage, I cut and soldered some replacement sections in 1 and 1/2 years ago and it has run fine ever since then for 15k miles. I just rechecked all the wires to make sure and they all look good. Everything was in order and worked fine when I pulled the old motor, I just hooked everything back up and its bonkers now. I did not add or remove any new electrical stuff this time so it should work the same.

I rechecked what exactly happens and its whenever a ground wire gets hooked up in the back of the motor (any of them) the engine light flashes crazy for 2 seconds then the ecm goes into diagnostic mode (code 12), the iac clicks a few times, the charcoal canister solenoid clicks some, and I think the fuel pump relay clicks too, and my add on fan turns on (I have since unhooked it). I tried unplugging everything so far (except the speedo wires at rear tranny and the tcc tranny wires) to help find the problem. Even tried the old unhook and rehook the ecm shuffle. I did not swap proms, but I could, I have a duplicate that works fine. It only stoped when I unhook all my grounds at the rear of the motor, the I get no clicking or ses light.

I would like to find out what order the rear ground wires are on a working car (I was stupis and did not label mine), so I can hook em up and not worry that they are the problem, then move on if it still goes haywire. I have a bolt with the nut in the middle, so I dont know what side of the nut I had the wires on.

The new motor is so close, yet so far............

Vader

It honestly doesn't matter which wires get bolted down in what order, since they're all going to be grounded once the bolt is tightened. It has no effect whatsoever.

I'd still be very suspicious of that black/white wire. If it were mine, I'd cut it loose from the ground ring and check continuity back to A9 at the ECM just to be sure. It's just too coincidental, and it certainly acts just like it should when the ALDL diagnostic request line is grounded. Don't ask me why it just started happening, though.

83ho86tpi

I cleaned and re-did all my grounds and added a extra ground strap to the drivers side head just for fun, it still acted up. I unplugged the prom and then put it back in, that fixed the problem last night. This morning when i do KOEO it acts up again. I unplugged and replugged prom and it was fine again. Then I disconnect the ESC jumper wire for timing so I can try and start it for the first time, put the key on and it acts up again I thought I could unplug the esc anytime without having problems?. I assumed it was the prom and tried to start it while it was still acting up but it does not start, I wore the battery out before trying to unplug/replug the prom again. I guess I should not have tried to start it with the sensors ses thing going on, too late now. I have 42lbs fuel pressure and spark was ok (tested #1) Timing was ok i think but I will tell what I did to make sure. #1 drivers side front plug hole gave me the compression puff and I turned the crank a little more till it was at 0. then I put the dizzy in and got the rotor bug pointed twoards the front of the motor a pointing a little more twoards the drivers side between #1 & #8. I have the wires correct according to the plastic cap that has the #s on it and checked drivers side 1357 and passengers 2468. all look good. I am guessing that it does not start because of the ses goofy computer thing or because I goofed up timing.

I will try the unplug / replug prom thing again and try and start it if it acts normal. For now, my battery charger is being slow.

If that does not work I will cut and test the ground wire like you said. What should it normally do? Should it normally have a connection through to A9 or not?

I will try the prom replug 1 more time. If the

83ho86tpi

my other prom did not work at first, it acted up with the ses and sensors / fan like it had been doing before, then after 10 seconds it went to normal. So I tried to start it, it seemed close to firing but the computer ses / fan / sensors thing started again, I only got 3 minuites of normak operation. Now it acts up with either prom. Im afraid I fried both proms, but I am pretty sure it is not a prom problrm because both proms worked fine prior to this.

Could it be the ECM?

I would hate to waste 100$-200$ on a ECM if that is not the problem, or fry it.

Also, the positive battery post got hot when It started acting up with my other prom. I disconnected it and reconnected it and it was fine (not hot) but the fans, relays / sensors still clicked.

Here is a picture of the passengers side head ground strap and wires. I used a ohm meter to check the ALDL circuit. I hooked a aligator clip (the thing in the picture that says china)to one of the wires (I did not seperate the wires, so they all were still touching eachother). and the other wire to the top right terminal on the diagnostic port (A9?) The circuit was complete, just like touching ohm meter wires directly to eachother. I got no reading from the bottom left terminal port.

I hope I did this test like you asked me to.
What do you think of the results?
Does it seem like a ECM problem or wire problems?

Vader

I wouldn't go to that extent just yet, since you still haven't proven anything about your wiring.



It sounds like you tested continuity to the 'A' terminal of the ALDL socket. That's close, but you really need to test the resistance to the 'B' terminal of the ALDL connector. the 'A' terminal is supposed to be grounded. Better yet, when you drop the ECM out of the dash again, test it directly at the 'A9' connection at the ECM. If the wire that you are testing under the hood is in fact the diagnostic request line that is supposed to be at the ALDL, any test there wouldn't be valid (since that wire may not be there).

If you read continuity between that suspect wire and the A9 connection, you have a wiring problem. If you read continuity to the A9 terminal, your ohm meter is telling you that the ECM diagnostic request line is grounded, or somehow has continuity to that ground lug. The next step would be a little more invasive, to cut the black/white wire off that ground terminal and repeat the ohm meter test with the ALDL or ECM A9 connector.

83ho86tpi

good idea Moe, Im glad I thought of it. Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk

I will try exactly that this saturday afternoon. I get limited automotive play time since my car is 40 minuites away at a friends house. I work on it there because I dont have a garage.

83ho86tpi

I noticed that my blowed does not work woth KOEO, add that to the list of problems. It runs when I hotwire it directly to a battery, so that tells me this is a wiring problem for sure. I tried the A9( from the ecm harness to each ground wire and got no continuity. I did not have the battery hooked up or the key on though. I got carried away and started to take ALL the wires out so I could check each one. I took my dash out and am 1/2 way done total. I probably should have taken a break and asked for more help but I was so P.O.ed at the blower not working that I decided I should check every wire.

I will do the basics like checking for broken/loose/missing connectors, and check wires for exposed spots and try and find breaks with the ohm meter.

Are there any other things I should look out for?

So far there was a bad connection for the ground on the blower motor. That ground is not hooked up to anything else though, so it is probably not my problem.

Vader

We're gonna have to ask Schemp. I'm getting confuzled now. The heater/AC blower doesn't work KOEO, but works with the engine running? That makes me wonder where the missing ground is coming from when the engine is running. It can't be good.

Does the ECM A9 have continuity to the B terminal of the ALDL?

83ho86tpi

Sorry, I was probably rambling before. The blower does not work with the original wiring at any time. I "hotwired it" ran 2 wires from the blower directly to a battery and the blower worked.

The engine cranks but does not start yet. I was getting fuel spark and air. I guess I can blame the non starting factor on the electrical gremlins for now.

Yes, A9 is has good continuity through terminal B in your diagram, but I am checking this with ALL the wires out of the car.

I have checked A1 through A12 on the ecm harness, everything looks good, matches the wire diagram and has continuity. I still have B1 - B12, C1 - C16, and D1 - D16 to check... not to mention checking the wiring that was under the dash.

This is the last thing I can think of to do that might uncover the problem. If these checks with my wire diagrams does not uncover it, I guess I could try a new ecm. I have always been good at turning a wrench but I am slow with the diagnostic stuff.

83ho86tpi

What in the workd is going on with this wore harness!!!!!!!?????

It is the same exact one that worked perfectly in the car 1 month ago and now it does not work.

My wiring does not match up. A1 -A12 and B1 - B12 at the ECM harness were fine and looked good.

There are some matching problems with C1 - C-16 and D1 - D16 at the ECM.

I just found there is no wire going to D - 13, that says it should be the Sensors Ground, I highlighted the wires it should have in RED, it should ground the Air Temp Sensor, the Coolant Temp Sensor, and the Throttle Position Sensor..... but there is no wire there!!!!!!!
I traced the wire that grounds these sensors and they feed into D-2. According to this diagram the Coolant Fan Relay should be there instead, I marked this wire in Pink. I have not checked the rest of the wires but did notice a wire at C -1 where it says there is no wire, and no wire at D - 8 where there should be one.


This diagram is a mitchell for 1986 firebird ecm v8 EFI. I am sure this should be the correct diagram for my car unless someone has one that is different............is there another wire diagram that you or someone can show me?? The Fan and Sensors wires are mixed up according to this diagram and they were some of the things that were acting up.

Do I have the wrong wire diagram, or did someone sneak into the grage and install different wires in my car when I was not looking??? This does not make sense, why did it run ok before???

Ok, I just made a trip to the parts store and got a Chiltons to compare diagrams and it has the D-2 and D-13 just like my ECM harness. I am sure the mitchell one I was using was wrong. I am going to use the Chiltons now, but I still dont know whats wrong with the car.

83ho86tpi

HERE IT IS!!!!!!!!! or at least i think its this.

Here is the picture of the part under the dash where you plun a code scanner in. If you were to remove that piece from the car, you would see these parts including the Big Blue Box. What in the heck is this blue box for? Dosent it have the door buzzer in it???

83ho86tpi

Here is a pictire of the underside. These are the wires that go into the Big Blue Box.

Most of the wires there have continuity (readings anywhere from 20% to 100%) between them when that Blue Box is plugged in. These wires all spider out into many parts of the car including the ecm.

When I unplug the box there is NO continuity between the wires.

Correct me if I am wrong but I dont think that blue box should cause the pink wire make a connection to the black wire and to the grey wire and to the orange wire, to the green wire, and to the black white wire. All those connections are cut off when I pull the blue box out.

Could you or somebody PLEASEEEEEEEE take their cover off and test the wires in this picture to see what happens on a normal running car??

Vader

That entire panel is called the "Convenience Center (yeah, really convenient to get to, eh?). It contains the flasher, warning chime, and IP lamp dimmer control on Pontiacs. That "blue dealy" is the warning chime and associated logic.

Either that, or it's the warp field generator/reactor control module - I can't remember clearly.

83ho86tpi

It was not the blue buzzer box. It was the ECM. Got a new computer and all the problems went away, but the starter would not work. I figured that one out 2 days later. I had to fix the old AT gear selector electrical box (It was not letting power go to the purple starter wire).

I will finaly get a chance to try and fire up the new motor and tranny later this week. That is if any more old parts dont break.