bathcobird

i have a 1990 pontiac firebird with a v6. when i turn the key to start the car, it wont do anything. heres what ive done so far....


replaced starter. found that purple wire going to s terminal on starter doesnt get any power.

tore down the steering column to get to the ignition switch. found a broken wire coming from the switch. thinking id solved it, i went and bought a new ignition swtich. still no dice.

ever since we've been testing wires..everything works on the switch except the actual cranking signal that goes to the starter.


today i pullled the codes out of the computer...its showing code 43 and code 46. i assume the 46 is because of the new ignition switch. i dont know what else to do with the thing.....

anyone know what could be causing all this?

PhLaXuS

I've posted the codes here for you & anyone who may need similar help:
Code 43=Low voltage at electronic spark timing circuit.
Code 46=Fault at vehicle anti-theft sytem OR Fault at power steering switch.

Below is a troubleshooting guide to sorting out the no crank issue. I wrote it with the mindset that you don't know all of this already, so don't take offense if I wrote in too simple a term. I don't know your level of understanding of this system You can run through the schematic below if needed.

NOTE: I'm assuming you have an auto tranmission. This is also assuming the new ignition switch is good and has power at the two red wires.

1.) Put a meter between ground and the yellow wire at the ignition harness. Turn the key to START. You should have +12V. If so, go to step #2. If not, check the fusible link back to the battery for an open connection.
2.) Probe the starter enable relay terminals C & E for +12V when the key is in START. If so, go to the next step, if not, you've got a break between the ignition switch and the relay.
3.) Probe terminal A on the enable relay and turn the key. If you don't have +12V, then most likely it's a VATS issue and you can test this by grounding terminal B and trying again. If you get +12V now, it's a VATS problem. If you do not, then the enable relay is toasted. If you did get +12V go to step #4.
4.) Remove the shifter lid to gain access to the neutral safety wire harness inside. Probe the TAN-WHITE wire for +12V when in START. If you get it, now probe the PPL line. If you have power on one wire and not the other, then the neutral safety switch is dead. If you get power on both lines go to step #5.
5.) Probe the starter S terminal (which you've done). You should have +12V when in START. If so, but the starter solenoid will not engage, then you have a bad solenoid -- replace the starter. (Note that here you're only testing the solenoid and not the actual starter motor. The solenoid should make an audible sound when it is engaged.) If you do not have power now, then the PPL line between the neutral safety switch & the starter is open. If the solenoid engages, but the starter will not, then check the BLACK wire running from the battery (+) to the starter.

Dan8289gta

Does your security light stay on constant or not come on at all when you turn the key forward? If so its a vats issue. Check to see that your start enable relay is working properly its behind the drivers side kick panel. You can actually remove the black plastic cover and see if the relay is physically moving when the key is turned. If the relay is making a connection its not a vats issue.

And by the way vats= vehicle anti theft system.

Start there and tell us what you find.

crazymex83

I didn't see step 4 while reading the troubleshooting guide.

PhLaXuS

That's because I was writing it @ work in between everyone asking me questions...I'll go fix it now...

bathcobird

the security light doenst come on at all.....when the car was running right the light didn't come on but every so often...


following the steps above, step one i have power on the yellow wire....on step two we're having difficulty finding the starter relay, im trying to go by wire colors and i found something that looks to be right beside the steering column. is this it or is the thing more hidden?

Dan8289gta

Remove the kick panel on the drivers side(the trim piece that is next to your left foot if sitting in the driver seat) It should be right there. There is a black cover on it remove the cover(it should just snap on), when you turn the key the relay should move and make contact.

bathcobird

so the one im talking about is right....but the colors are not exactly the same....it has like three wires coming into it....green yellow and tan. thats why ive been confused...ill go back out and check and see what happens

bathcobird

no...i was wrong...the switch i referred to goes to the head light motors....the kick panel would be the small piece on the side then?

bathcobird

ok....finally found the relay.....after doing the tests.....its a vats problem. im betting it doesnt like my new ignition switch and key. is there any way to bypass VATS?

PhLaXuS

Take a known good key and measure the resistance in the embedded pellet. I think there were 16 different values GM used in this incarnation of VATS.

Go to RadioShack and buy the closest value resistor you can find (Just as a curious point of note, ALL of the 91 Camaro keys I've measured thus far have been 1.5k...go figure...). Unplug the VATS harness located on the steering column. My car had two wires in an orange sleeve. Make certain you don't tamper with the airbag, if equipped. I BELIEVE those are always yellow sleeves, but double-check before messing with it. Anyway...

Unplug the connector at the steering column and on the side going to the VATS module, plug the resistor in there. Give it a try. If it doesn't crank, then the VATS module is either not powered or is most likely dead. Ground terminal B on the starter enable relay and try again. It should crank. I don't believe it will start because the VATS module feeds back to the ECM that it is authorized to start. In any case, it SHOULD crank. This will let you know the rest of the starting circuit is OK and you'll only need to focus on fixing/replacing the VATS.

IIRC, the VATS outputs a 40Hz square wave to the ECM to indicate the key passed VATS authorization. You could build a circuit based arounf a 555 timer to simulate this, but it's probably easier to replace the module (and better in the end, in my opinion).

Trickster

What you should have done when you replaced the lock cylinder was to get a new key cut at the dealership using the resistance value from the old key. Are you using a new key with a pellet in it or are you using the brass key that came with the lock cylinder. The brass key will turn the lock cylinder but will not start the car in any way. It is only there to provide a template for the security key to be cut.

bathcobird

so if i take the old key, and the brass one to the dealership, they can make me one that should have the right resistance? thats sounds like what i should try and do tomorrow.

bathcobird

hi everyone. just wanted to let you all know what happened with this car....


so i went to the dealership and got a key made, and sure enough it fired right up. the idling problem was still occuring, but we fixed that because my dad bent the throttle arm enough to force it to idle right. and then another problem arose....


the next day(thursday) my battery was dead because somehow i managed to leave the headlights on....so i jumped it and left it to charge the battery. it idled for fifteen mins and then i came back to find my radiator had busted and was steaming. i shut it off. the engine was fine....turns out my dad had unplugged the fan the other day when he was down there becuase the wire was in his way. so to make a long story shorter i had to buy a new radiator( which actually was for the best because the old one wasn't the greatest) and now it runs like a top. when i can ill get a picture of the car for you guys to see. thanks to everyone for helping me through this(im down with the flu on top of it all) and your help really helped solved the dilemma.

joshwilson3

.