Hi again

For I had to exchange my fuel pump my car has sat for 5 months now. Before that I cranked my car about 8 times or so without driving it. And also I used the battery to pump fuel out of the tank. So my battery's eye went from green to black. That was last July. Since then I disconnected it but left it in the car.

The battery is at least 11 1/2 years old and might be even some years older. It's a Delco 75-6MF and I've never ever had any problems with it. Well, since that day...

When the temperature dropped two weeks ago and snow was forecast I quickly had to put my tank back up because I didn't know how much coolant I had in the water. That was when I first tried to charge the battery. First I measured the volts and it said 11,5. So I thought that would be no problem to charge it. I bought a cheap and simple charger (5 amps). When I hooked it on the battery it would charge at some 13,xx volts but the amp meter on the charger was between 0 und 1 amps. After one hour I disconnected the charger to measure the volts at the battery again. I measured right after disconnecting the carger and it said 12,7 volts dropping constantly. But at least the battery seemed to be able to get some power from the charger. I then continued charging over night. After 12 hours the power from the charger was only 12,25 volts, the amps had gone up to about 3. But when I disconnected the charger the battery had only 10,7 volts. I didn't continue charging. I got a better charger (CTEK 5.0). But the battery sat for another 4 days. When I measured its volts before I hooked on the new charger it was already down to 7,xx volts. The charger then started... step 1 was desulfating which didn't seem to take place as it started from step 2 right away. This is a slow / soft charging phase with only 12,6 volts power. When the charger started working I could hear a crackling and bubbling (not too bad), I couldn't hear that when I used the cheaper charger. I then left the charger for some hours and when I came back it was at phase 3. So that should mean that the battery took the charge and in phase 3 the charger continued for another couple of hours. In phase 3 the charger goes up to 14,4 volts and 5 amps until the battery reaches 80% of its capacity. Phase 4 again is the absorption mode to pull the power up to 100%, the amps are reduced here. I couldn't see when phase 4 took place... when I got back the error lamp was on and the charger was at phase 5. Phase 5 tests whether the battery can hold the power. So it seems that it wasn't able to do so. But when I measured the volts at the battery, it had already dropped to under 8 volts again. As a last try I started the charger again but then it would already stop at phase 2 with the error lamp going on. Until today (another week almost) the volts go down steadily... last time I measured was about 2 volts.

Well, why am I writing all this... I'm a bit "sad" about this battery because it always kept me safe and today's batteries are almost all never the same quality as back then. AC Delco doesn't produce them anymore themselves. So if there's some ways to try to revive the battery I'd like to test it. Problem is I'm so scared of a possible explosion.

What I'm asking you is: What are the next steps I could take with my battery to try to revive it? And what are the conditions the battery could explode? I read of batteries exploding without even being on a charger or something because of a spark inside the battery. But normally there has to be hydrogen gas present to produce an explosion. But with dead batteries... you never know. There are many videos on Youtube of guys opening the battery and filling up water or Epsom salts. Or they say that some very short short-circuits could revive the battery or a thing called pulser... I thought to be safe I could place my battery in the middle of my lawn and hook up long cables to be able to do the dangerous tests some metres away from the battery and then wait some time before I approach it again until the possible hydrogen has been blown away or spread... Also I already have safety glasses and I know that I have to be careful because of the acid.

So I'd really appreciate your comments and tips. I know the best thing is to buy a new battery... and I eventually will, I know that. But just for heaven's sake I'd like to try to revive my old battery. So please no educative posts and warning fingers without any help. I have absolutely nothing against constructive hints, also about safety issues, though.

Thanks,
Thomas

 

Well unfortunately I have no experience with reviving old batteries but good luck! Hopefully someone here can help you.

11 1/2 years is super old for a battery. The ones now a days don't last like that at all. I never really thought about trying to revive a battery but if it's possible I suppose it would be a good talent to know in case I'm ever in a pinch. It probably won't be something very easy or very safe though, but I'm interested to see what other people know about this topic.

 

Your battery is done .

Now , let me tell you my battery revival story ;


Many moons ago (1970s) , I bought a really good condition 53 Buick that had sat for 20 years in a garage . Like yours , the battery was junk , but unlike yours which is as common as any parts store , BJs or Wallmart is handy , mine was the unobtainum "suitcase" battery . Don't know what a suitcase battery was ? Well , it was a battery 4 inches thick X about 2 feet long X about a foot tall , and it ran along the passenger's side inner wheelwell . There was TRULY no room for our conventionally shaped modern car battery and I eventually ended up sending it to a company that rebuilds batterys with new lead and such . Yes , BTW , it was a 6 Volt system and no "modern" 6 Volt battery would have ever fit in the available space . So anyway , the plan was to get the car running using one of those big charger/start booster units like gas stations have to get the car home from where I bought it . We cleaned out the old gas , changed the oil and sparkplugs and such , and during this got a crazy idea . What if we were to take the electrolyte (water + acid) from a good battery and replace it into the dead suitcase ? Now bear in mind this battery had sat 20 years and was electrically inert , not even 1/2 volt showing on the trusty Simpson 260 . Well sure enough , replacing the acid brought the battery enough back to life that it would even run the headlights , although the starter still needed the 6V boost to crank the engine over (straight 8 with dynaflow trans.) .

So anyway , the general answer is no , unless you can both "re lead" as well as "re electrolyte" the battery , it is done for as any kinds of reliable power source for your car .

PS , once professionally rebuilt , the suitcase started the Buick till the day I sold it (to buy a mint 58 caddy) .....

 

That's a pretty nice car. Yeah I was thinking that once the chemical process in the battery is done, it's going to be something not economically feasible to repair.

Maybe someone else has experience for Thomas that may know a whole bunch about bringing the batteries backs though.

 

There was a few companies that flushed them with a chemical and then put new whatever back it.As long as the lead isn't broken and touching each other, Some say it works to keep them alive a few more yrs.
Ive had a battery last 8yrs or so but never even heard of 11-12! Thats amazing!

 

There are a few videos on YouTube you can try that have ways of getting a old lead acid batteries to hold a charge again...

 

BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Morning!

 

Thomas you mentioned constructive hints and in that regard I'm going to mention that your initial question is a bit long. I understand the need to provide as much information as possible but it makes it more difficult to respond to due to the amount of time and effort to reply in specifics. That said, I feel that my reply might be just as long.

The first thing I feel that you need to understand is some basic concepts in electronics, this would especially help with knowing what might be dangerous or not. I can give you some quick basic ideas, but you will need to investigate the things that you don't quite understand by searching some of the key words/phrases I post via Google etc. The videos are also a good source of info. I'm also going to use an analogy to help you visualize electronics but will need to flip back and forth to help you see the whole picture.

The first basic concept imo is to think of electronics as being similar to flowing water. Voltage (V) is water pressure, ...how fast the water moves is equivalent to amperage (amps), and resistance is something that restricts the flow (in electronics this actually produces heat).

One danger of an automotive battery is the capacity(or ability) of flowing a lot of electricity(electrons) in a very short time, you may see this on the battery as cold cranking amps. When you charge a battery you provide a low amp flow at a higher voltage in order to push electrons into the battery, much like filling up a tank of water (maybe think of the tank as a pressurized bladder). When the battery is charged you can think of it as having a pressure of say 12v (volts) but a high capacity/volume of water (charge). The high capacity along with the ability to flow large amounts makes it possible to flow very large amounts of electrons through wiring. At such high levels, large amounts of heat can be developed which can catch fire or even explode (from an molecular/atomic level, in other words -not combustion).

One thing that happens to batteries as they are used is that the surface of the plates inside reduce the capacity of the battery (more later). Getting back to the analogy, this would be the same as reducing the available volume of water it could hold. So in this case, you can re-pressurize the battery (12v) but it no longer holds the same amount of volume. So that means you can sometimes charge the battery to the proper voltage, but because of the reduced capacity it will fall short when you go to use it. What is left in the battery quickly drains out and the voltage drops.

Getting back to the plates inside of the battery. (This will not include the water analogy and is a different concept.) Inside of the battery is actual water, an electrolyte, and two sets of plates of (iirc) dissimilar metal. Because of this design, it is possible to store electrons on one set of plates and hold them there (theoretically) indefinitely. As the battery is used over time the plates become coated with byproducts which is the reason why a battery loses its capacity. -What you were reading about is trying to shock the debris from the plates to regain capacity (or the amount of charge it will hold). Also, the water solution loses its ability to transfer electrons from one plate to the other. The solution is distilled water (which is non conductive) and typically hydrochloric acid (which is extremely dangerous) acting as the electrolyte, or conductor.

One byproduct of charging a battery is called electrolysis. When you energize two electrode in the water solution mentioned you separate what water is made of. That is oxygen and hydrogen. This does happen inside of a car battery and you can see the bubbles when a battery is charging which that also tells you how well the conversion is taking place. You also lose water this way and you want to make sure the plates are covered in the solution.
There are two dangers here. Hydrogen is obviously explosive and involves an extremely fast reaction (BTW, the Hindenburg was a fire of the outer skin coating, not hydrogen), there is also plenty of oxygen around however -the pure oxygen byproduct is also extremely dangerous because of its concentration (Example Apollo 1). The second danger is the possibility or actual physical pressure building up inside of the battery case exceeding the capacity of the shell holding it together. The explosion then sprays hydrochloric acid everywhere. This danger can be prevented if you have removable caps (and keep them over the top to reduce contaminants from getting in) but allow the gas and pressure to escape. This should be done where there is plenty of ventilation. One good thing about keeping it in the car is if it does explode the car will contain the acid vs. it flying everywhere.
From that, you have three types; a chemical gas combustion, pressure build up explosion, and high amp flow (electronic/electron-molecular level) explosion to be aware of.

So now you know some of the conditions of why it might explode. Now, when you are trying to knock off some of the build up (iirc) you are using reverse polarity so there is also the danger of an electronic type of explosion. Knowing what you know now, you should be able to see that the method/s typically include low amounts of voltage/amps sent in a varying amounts (pulser) to reverse and/or knock off the build up on the plates. I have seen more aggressive methods but that is obviously more dangerous. If you understand what I explained then it's up to you to determine how safe you feel about whatever methods you're looking at. This is why I want you to understand the variables involved. I did not mean to insult you either by repeating things you already know, it's just a lot easier for me just to write it out trying to cover everything. Also, you mentioned the battery losing it's charge and cold weather. Make sure that you keep the battery charged or it could freeze. I hope you already know that but just in case.

I whole heartedly agree that batteries aren't what they used to be. Some of it is due to the past economy and companies cutting costs in order to survive. Here in America there are supposedly just a few factories that make batteries for many different brands. Sometimes you can pick up a battery for less money if you know where the batteries are made, however sometimes the retailer changes their source and/or specifies different qualities. One battery here that is expensive but has had good reviews is Interstate, but I can't stand behind that either because I don't personally own one. Otherwise you can go by warranty (Non-prorated as long as possible) with a retailer that you can easily exchange for a new one.

I hope that helps.

 

Excellent write-up Scorpner!!

 

Thank you!

 

Hi again

Me, too, I'd like to say thank you for your detailed explanations. Some things I already knew, others were new to me. As I'm not that gifted with physical / scientifical skills I think I can understand what you wrote but sometimes not really put it into practice / apply it.

But as I think to understand an explosion might even occur if the battery hasn't been charged, just from a chemical point. So the thing is that I guess a risk of an explosion can't be eliminated however cautious I'd be. And to get that battery alive again I would have to take a more or less high risk. I experienced a hydrogen explosion at school. A teacher at college did an experiment to show us such an explosion, so I know there can be quite a lot of pressure and energy. But I can't estimate this in a battery situation and how much would be needed to prevent the acid from splashing around.

So you were saying that a battery exploding in a car would prevent (at least most of) the acid from getting out. I wonder whether a wooden box would be appropriate enough to hold back most of the liquid in case of an explosion. So if I placed the battery into such a box somewhere outside and some metres away from me, do you think this could prevent most of the dangerous impacts? Also if I imagined the battery exploding in my garden... even if I weren't near it, I guess I would have to dig over all the soil from my vegetable beds and it would leave the soil contaminated with acid...?

Thanks a lot!
Thomas

 

You're welcome.
Well, if you were expecting it to explode then I might want something like a tall box or even something like a 55 gallon drum cut in half, open at the top. But you get the idea, I mentioned the car as being better than sitting out in the middle of the yard and you're exactly right on the acid getting everywhere. In reality you don't want your car ruined either.
What I was hoping to do was to allow you to see what situations can make a battery dangerous. They are generally safe if you understand what factors can create a dangerous situation. You could think of each factor as a range to stay within.
As far as the hydrogen/oxygen danger you need to take the caps off of the top of the battery to allow the gas to ventilate, or float away. Also, with the caps off it cannot slowly build up pressure and without pressure it cannot explode in that sense. Of course if you lit a match at the opening it might ignite and the combustion expand (creating high pressure in very little time) and possibly explode that way. However the pressure would still be considerably less, and that is not something you would typically do in the same manner that you would not hold a match near an open gas tank. That danger is there every time you fill up, but the risk is acceptable. Sometimes people don't see that if you create a situation where the battery gasses are trapped and you also cause a spark by connecting cable that you would now exceed the range of safety.
The higher the current you apply, the more you stress the battery and cables and also the rate that gases are created so you can get near that range from that perspective too.
I guess that's how I would apply the theoretical to reality.

 

Well, the AC Delco 75-6MF is a closed (non servicable) battery, so without half tearing it apart, I won't be able to open the caps for having less pressure.

But talking about the hydrogen exploson possibility again... if after an attempt to load it I would wait like half an hour or so until I approach the battery or take away any clamps, I should be safe? So the hydrogen that was buildung would kinda evaporate while waiting and not charging the battery anymore?

 

Ok, as far as I know, maintenance free batteries still have vents although they are much smaller than a standard battery. Knowing that you could assume that the rate of the gases building up would need to be much slower so that it has time to escape.
The link below might help you get an idea of what to look out for, however if as you say you are not good with physical or scientific skills you may want to reconsider doing anything outside of the box (Ie. beyond normal use) until you can acquire the knowledge and judgement to access the situation in person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automot...ding_batteries