Ok I know everyone says it is a piece of junk. But hear me out. I have a LG4 87 firebird that I want a Pontiac engine in. It is my daily driver and I want good gas mileage with enough go to run high 13's. The Turbo 301 must have more power than the LG4 in stock form even.
Anyway I was wondering if tall deck Pontiac heads would work on this block? Also what would have to be done to a Edelbrock Pontiac intake to make it work on the 301? I cant seem to find enough info on this engine. I plan on making it multi-point fuel injection. What would be my best bet as far as a computer and harness? Also since the 301 Turbo was never computer controlled what about using knock sensors, map, etc ? Thanks for any info. I am really excited about doing this! I have to be different and was thinking about putting a Buick turbo in it. But that has been done.

 

That's a mental illness that seems to be rampant around here.

Daily driver, good gas mileage (16+ commuting, 21 highway in limited such use), high 13's (at sea level, mid/low 13's) - see sig.

 

Ok I am getting 26 MPG with the LG4 but I would like to keep that and still run better than 16's. Can anyone help?

 

Why not turbo the 305? It'd be alot easier to build up than an oddball engine like a 301.

 

OH I forgot I am on a chevy site! I guess I will go to a PONTIAC site. BTW I said I wanted to be different and I want a PONTIAC engine in a PONTIAC.

 

I hate it when some dumbass gets all pissy because noone supports a STUPID idea.

Go on to a Pontiac site,they will also tell you that your a dumbass.

As a final note,doing something stupid does not make you different,we see stupid people daily.Good luck on your gutless wonder.

 

What is even dumber... really is that i think our third gens all had the same friggen engine in them from GM.. I mean for the love of *** thier are basically the same cars... you can try to find a "pontiac" block... but if you look up the numbers it is made by GM... which in turn makes the SBC blocks... all the same thing.. wanting to Be different is not excuse for being rude and ignorant.

 

Point well made.
I could see Pontiac power,but no way in hell is a 301 of ANY type worth the trouble.
I think this guy and Wellington should get togethor and build cars togethor.That way there would be tons of gutless gas hogs out there for us "generic engine guys" to walk on.

4 bangers and 301s R US!!!!!!

 

301 Turbo not a bad engine, better than the non-turbo versions. I have a buddy with an '80 Trans Am 301 Turbo Bandit edition and it's torqey (is that even a word? heh)

210hp and 345 Torque isn't bad at all, but I think the milage would go down....not for sure though.

 

I expected that kind of response from you chevy guys and would like to remind you that the 302 chevy has the same bore and stroke as the 301 Pontiac. Also you can use tall deck Pontiac heads with this block as well as aftermarket intakes with spacers to make it breath. With a turbo you dont need the heavy breathing but if you do have it ...it helps. The biggest problem with these engines is with the crank and rod strength. That can easily be taken care of with cheap aftermarket parts. I found this info on a PONTIAC site. Thank you for your help.

 

BTW Angelis83lt you know nothing about engines if you think a chevy is a PONTIAC. You havent a clue. Totally different block! Totally different engine! Try to put any chevy part in a Pontiac and vice-versa. Wont work.With out mods. The only thing that hurts the Pontiac 301 is that it has a deck height close to a chevy. Good thing its only a 301. Rod/ Stroke ratio would be crap. The 400 Pontiac has a better Rod/Stroke ratio than the 350 chevy. Sad. In fact chevy used the same bore and stroke for their 400 as the Pontiac 400. But because of the short deck height the chevy used 5.56 inch rods;giving it a 1.48:1 rod/stroke ratio.good for a truck. The PONTIAC 400 has a rod/stroke ratio of 1.76. Very good! Dont think chevys are so good just because everyone runs one and the aftermarket caters to them.

 

Chevy/pontiac are owned by GM, So to me Chevy andPontiac blocks are GM blocks , gonna argue with that logic?

 

Thanx firebreed.. that was the exact point i was trying to make. they are both made by GM... the whole "chevy vs pontiac" thing is pretty mute but anyhow.. the point is.. a 305 will get you better gas mileage than that turbo 301... 4 CU Inches is not really enough to care about. the turbo is just put grater demand on the fuel system because it will want more fuel... since there is more air being pushed into it... at anyrate.. do what you wish.. in the end with your ranting at the people on this site.. I wouldn't expect to get alot of help. eventhough many of them have Pontiacs.

 

I'm a Ponchoholic, and I'm even suggesting stay away from any 301. It is a weaker starting point, even w/the turbo. They were designed as econo motors w/thin wall casting techniques and a crank w/like balance weights. If you really want to be different, **cheap plug** why not consider late model Buick V6's? IT's not chevy (ducks) and with a stick, can eaily be put in the 14's w/little mods. My 99 GP gets up to 35mpg and is a lot heavier than f-bods.

BUt if you still want to do the 301, do a on Pontiac in this forum. You might find some things, but most will be about the 400/455.

 

Uhhh....that's a bad way to look at it, Chevy is what the "corporate" GM went to for their motors, but the 301 is a totally different engine than a 305.

The 301 was still made by Pontiac Motor Division like the 307 was still made by Oldsmobile and the 3.8 (231) was made by Buick. Matter of fact the 3.8 in the TTA is a Buick engine, not a Chevy.

Let's see you take a head from a 305 and bolt it to a 301, won't happen, plus there is nothing on the 301 that says GM at all where the 305's have the GM lable on them.

 

lol

 

umm. be honest

if you goto ANY pontiac board, they're going to tell you to build a 400 or 455... or go into some mountain motor combo you cant afford.

NOONE is going to really support you putting the 301 in there... most pontiac guys view the motor as a insult to their precious pontiac name... lol.

 

Wow!!!!

It will be interesting to note the references I'm about to give you will have lots of responses like above. Always keep in mind how many of the above respondants have actually "seen" a 301T vs. "owned" the engine vs. modified improved the engine, etc. The 301 Pontiac engine suffers much of the same fate as the 305 chevy. If you can see past the "rip out the 301/305 and put a 400/350" in its place, you'll find lots of good, reliable information from those that really do have some experience.

I'm currently going through a similar attempt on my 301. Here are a few places I've been using for my research :

I started this thread @ TAC : http://www.transamcountry.com/forum/...ic.php?t=16684
To discuss the head swap issue. There's also more information on 301T searches on that board. Interesting to note that there's someone running 12's or 13's on what's advertised as a mostly stock engine (different cam, opened up exhaust) with the boost cranked.

Generic 301T information including some peoples buildups : http://home.ripway.com/2005-1/240165/301shrine.html

Here's the biggie. Post #58854 in the Q/A section at classicalpontiac.com discussing making the 301 withstand 300-500 hp. This is the thread with over 500 posts. Beware! About half are dedicated to people saying "301's are crap. Build a 400/455". Interesting how "helpful" people can be when building an engine. When asked why they're saying anything if it is contrary to the question being asked (i.e. will big port heads fit a 301? Answer, rip it out. 301's suck!.....), they respond they're only trying to save the builder money. I applaud that attitude. And, given their overwhelming sense of charity, I'm waiting for them (and maybe some of the people who replied above) to actually give me some of their money since they're so concerned........ Shoot, I'll even settle for a free lunch......

Anyway, that post will give you some good information on heads, rods, pistons, cranks, etc. I've read and re-read that post a few times. Search for "301" on that same site for additional posts on this subject.

Addressing a few other questions you asked (and didn't)....
It is said that GM in 1980 was planning on carrying the 301T into the 3rd gen cars. The 301 Turbo Shrine site mentioned above has someone's educated guess/simulation of a 3rd gen vehicle performance with the associated hardware changes (final drive, OD trans, ~1000lb vehicle weight reduction, etc)

1981 TTAs were computer controlled (CCC Q-Jet). This includes ECM-compatible coolant, 2-bar MAP, oil pressure, VSS and knock sensors. I've recently swapped out the Q-jet for a TBI running a 7749 ECM. I used the majority of the existing harness (as I would imagine you could do with your '87) and added whatever lines/components were needed (IAC, Fuel Pump) I haven't completed the car enough to really tune much. But, it does start and go back and forth in the driveway!!

Edit : Almost forgot, you can't do MPFI if you use the stock 301 siamesed heads. The cylinders will "borrow/steal" fuel from the neighboring port. However, if there is success putting older or aftermarket heads/intake on the engine, that problem goes away. That's why I went TBI, for now.

I'd like to encourage you to investigate this further keeping your mind open to all the facts. The detractors of the 301 do have valid points about the weaknesses of the 301. If you keep these in mind along the way while finding out how (and how much it will be) to deal with or overcome them, you're in for an interesting time. I'm with you on the trying to be "different" path. You'll have to grow some thick skin to see this through.

Let me know if you have any questions or need more details. This post has already gotten too long with a few too many ramblings already!

 

I don't know what the bore and stroke of a 301 Pontiac is, but I KNOW its not 4"x3" like a 302 Chevy.

The 301 is a smog motor, always was, and big bore/short stroke setups do not do well with emitions.

 

Marking the first time I think I've quoted myself on this board..... Didn't have to wait long.....

http://www.wallaceracing.com/boresizes.htm

 

woah...would you look at the stroke/bore combo of the 303...you could put some huge valves in there!

anyway...coming from someone who has been "different", unless you have an enormous amount of extra cash layin' around, i'd advise not going with one of the BOP motors. they are expensive to put in these cars and EXTREMELY expensive to make go fast.

heck, i mean think about it, why did GM drop these platforms in 81 and decide to use the sbc for everything from then on out?

 

- I think the 303 ws the destroked 400 so that T/A could be raced (I don't have my reference material handy, but I know they raced it)

- They go fast allready, and only gets EXTREMELY expensive when you want OMFG power.

- GM dropped the Poncho motors(among other makes,besides the iron Duke) to save $$$$, not because they were "inferior"

 

I guess I stand corrected (about the 301 bore and stroke). I had no idea it was really a 302, I thought it used the 3.75" stroke crank, like most other Pontiacs?

 

Tear it up kid. Sounds like a fun project. I'm a Transamcounrty as well so if you need some help PM me.

 

Some of you must skim over these posts quicker than I do. Either that, or you can't read. Nobody said the 301 was a SBC. So, stop with the personal attacks already.

Back to the topic: The likelihood of making the car faster with a turbo 301 and getting 26 mpg at the same time are pretty slim, I would think. If you want to get the car into the 13's while still getting 26 mpg, spray the 305.

All this Pontiac/Chevy/GM stuff is McDonalds parking lot monkey spank. It has no place in the real world. I've seen plenty of fast Pontiacs, I've seen a lot more fast Chevys. Having to have a "Pontiac" engine in a "Pontiac" 'Bird boils down to brand loyalty silliness.

But, if you have to have a Pontiac engine in your 3rd gen, the factory didn't completely forget you - it was called the Iron Duke...

 

ok. I can admit.. I was wrong about the pontic engine up until the very early 1980's. the pre80's blocks are vastly different now that i looked at them, including the motor mounts... so... you made a valid point on the engines being different.. but it led into a new problem for ya.. how to mount the engine.. oh well. I am sure you will figure something out.

Besides the post was what people think about putting the motor into the car.. I still think as far as that goes it is a bad idea... the motors were not the best to begin with (just got done looking at one in 79 transam and driving it).

 

funny thing,the iron duke is HALF of the 301. the 301 was made only two years and it was pontiacs v8 and l4 combo of the duke and the 301. both were supposed to be in the firebird,but some corprate assbandit said put in the cheaper sbc.

i think that super duty l4 heads might also fit on the 301,but i dont think their would be an intake for it.and you could get twin cosworth heads for it[$10,000] , someone has built one before,ill try to find the link.

id say go for it,build a fast turbo pontiac. it will be nifty.

 

Actually, there's a sticky on this board that describes how to install a Pontiac V8 in a 3rd gen. "Mounts" wouldn't be any different going from one displacement to another. Accessories, brackets, exhaust manifolds, etc would probably have to be worked out. But, that's pretty standard fare for a project like this.

 

I've thought about doing this exact setup myself. I too think it would be cool to be different. There was a guy I was talking to a while back that had a 301T setup in an 80 or 81 TTA and was running in the 12's. He gave me a list of mods how to achieve some better power out of this engine so it can be done. It seems everyone likes to swap these motors out as well, so for me finding one was difficult. I have a 400 SBC in my '82 right now, but I still have thought about swapping out to a 301T

 

I thought it was hard to get the turbo parts for those engines?...anyway i think u r wasting ur time asking what ppl will think of this...u know ur gonna get ripped apart...maybe with good reason, maybe not...

besides...there is nothing special about these cars...there cheap to buy and work good for he money...they r not diffrent in anyway and even thought putting in a wild egine mite make the car special to thoses of us who own them and no what work u put in....90% of the thoses who see ur car....wont care...

so if u really want to be diffrent...go buy a different car...something special...something unique...

i have nothing agenst these cars...and i have owned 3 now...(and im only 18 hehe) and they are wicked for what u can get them for($ wise)...but they r no Charger, or Boss mustang...2 day they are about as special as a honda civic or a cavalier

i love my firebird and have no plans to sell it...but ppl could care less when i pull into gas station in my firebird...but when u pull into a gas station in a 67 Mustang or 70 Torino...everybody stares...there arent many third gens that can claim that...

its the truth...

 

I would agree with you to some extent. True there isn't much special about our cars, but I think that is because they are still fairly "young" You're talking about a 67 Mustang and 70 Turino...The mustang is pushing 40 years and the Turino 35. A third gen at it's oldest is 23, and end of production was 13 years ago. Many of these cars are still pretty common on the roads, with lesser examples of the early third gens. When our cars get to be 30 and 40 years old maybe more people will look when you pull into the gas station

However there are special or unique examples of our cars...pace cars, recaro's, the 84 aniversarry edition, TTA's, MSE TA's, etc...

I don't think the intent of the original poster was to make his car unique just so others will say, "hey cool, a 301 in a third gen" Granted nobody will probably know or care, or ask "why???" I think maybe he wants to do it just because nobody else has done it and wants to tackle the project to make it work. That is one of the reasons I wanted to do it, another was because it is what could have been if Pontiac put them into production. Mostly a

 

Location! Location! Location! Ask camaroguy18. or NEEDFORSPEED. Up here in Minn, any third gen gets looks. Up here, we get just as many looks at our cars as do the muscle cars here. The main reason being that the period you can run muscle cars up here is limited. So when we take out our nice third gen cars, we shine em up nice and pretty and we get looks. and to ME anyway, Our cars are special. When I bought my first one, I had a plan. I was going to buy one third gen, then buy a C-4 vette, Then a C-5 vette. Then finally, a viper. That was three years ago. since then i've owned 7 IROCS, 1 firebird formula, a 6cyl SC camaro(only for 10 hours. sold it same day) and a 94 vette. I stalled right there. I sold the vette after 2 months because the vette just wasnt that impressive to me. I still intend to buy a viper, but i will always own third gens.