Me and my dad just started our first swap on my '86 IROC. So we've removed almost all the accessories and started on the wiring (which was pretty badly messed up by the PO).

Can we just go through the wires and take out what we don't need/want and keep the ECM? I guess the follow-up to that would be, if we can keep the ECM, what is it that we need? I'm really concerned with the TCC lockup, I'd rather just leave the computer in and let it control that, if possible.

I expect to ask a lot more questions throughout this process, so bear with me. haha.

Thank you.

 

There's a sticky at the top of the carb forum that covers TCC control.

 

Only a computer type carb, with a proper carb computer, will lock up the TCC. The TPI computer will be brain dead.

 

That makes sense. Thank you.

 

Ok, we've run into our first real problem in the fuel system. I figured it was going to be the most involved, since we wanted to drop the tank, make the pump just a pickup, and re-route line to the passenger side of the block for the fuel pump. But, when we got under there today, we found the exhaust system's been welded to a brace just to the left of the fuel tank. While that brace is removable, it means that we have to disconnect the pipe in front of the differential (a feat in itself) and try to twist it over the rear end and drop it out. And then we can just drop the tank? Is this the only way? Any tips?

Also, how can I make sure the pump is still getting power, in case we can't get to it to get it out? Where does the wire run to, and what, if any, connectors do we need to connect to complete it's circuit?

Sorry, I know it's alot.

 

Ok, I'll let y'all marinate on that question for a while. But in the meantime, we got the engine dropped in, with nothing hooked up. We're trying to get the accessories bolted on, but can't remember how the power steering pump brackets worked. If somebody has a picture of the power steering pump set-up, that would be infinitely helpful.

Thank you.

 

ok. find the fuel pump relay. over by the booster most likely. see if you get power to it when you turn on the key. if you are able to do this then dont drop the tank. put in a bypass regulator and go for it. for the most part go to the home page and read thru the tech article.

https://www.thirdgen.org/carbswap is your best friend. start all your searches in the carb section and i believe you will find everything you need.

 

thanks for the reply, but I'd just feel better going ahead and using the mechanical pump. Unavoidably, the in-tank pump's gonna take a crap, and i definitely don't want to do this again. haha.

Alright I need a little help. How do we remove the wires we arent using from the ecm? I know they run down the PS fender, and through the kick panel to the ecm. But there's a clip-looking thing just outside where the wires enter the kick panel. How does that get removed? or does it even need to?

And the power steering pump is still kicking our ***. haha. so if anyone with a v-belt setup would take a picture of that, it would be infinitely helpful.

Thank You.

 

I didn't remove any of my wiring - I just unplugged the ECM and took it out. I tucked all the wiring from the pass side engine bay harness into the fenderwell - they tuck in nicely sight unseen. I now have an unlimited supply of wires that run from cabin to bay for anything imaginable - I'm currently using several for under-hood lighting, fog lights, manual fan controller switches, etc.

TPI meant dual fans right? You'll need a seperate fan controller to operate your fans now, as the ECM controlled the operation of the primary fan (A/C pressure switch operated the secondary fan). I'm using a Flex-a-lite unit, about $100 - very nice piece, highly recommend - easy to wire, fully adjustable, and 4+ years later I've never had an ounce of issues with mine.

 

In hindsight, I probly should've just seperated the wires i don't want and tucked them into the fender out of sight as mentioned. What I did, however, was cut them. So now I'm looking for a way to get rid of all those loose wires. Poor planning, I know.

I'm not sure if it's a dual fan, i can check when I get back out there, but it's hot wired to run with the key on. So that should be fine, right?

In addition to the one stated above, I may have another poor-planning story/question for you. I bought a vacuum advance distributor off a guy for $35 without the cap, assuming I could use my HEI cap. Turns out, this distributor doesn't have the tapped holes for the bolts that hold the cap to the distributor. It looks like the cap would kind of "slide" into place. I'll try to get a picture if that was unclear. But I've been told it could be a Pontiac distributor. Any thoughts? I assume that wouldn't work?

Thank You.

 

if it is an hei cap they dont have screws. they are held on by clips. it should have a wide base with the coil that goes in the top.

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...-1&showValue=3

 

The distributor that was in my 305 had the coil in the cap, but still had bolts that held it together. haha. so does that make it an HEI?

Regardless, that definitely loooks like the distributor I bought. I was a little confused about how it connected. So now I know what cap to look for. Thank you, that was very helpful.

 

Well yes but your HEI now is computer controlled,just get an older Hei from a 70's and it shouldn't have the computer plug on it.The computer HEI will have 2 groups of wires comming out it and the older 1's only have 1 group comming out of it usually they are a group of 4 wires that will plug back into the cap.

 

Shouldn't be a problem with that dist - just have to get a cap for it. Your old coild should work just fine in the top of it.

 

Alright, well I was a little mistaken. The distributor is actually a points-style off a '78 el camino 305. It'll work anyway, but is there anything I should look out for, or be sure to do? I know I have to set the points at like .017 or something, right?

Obviously, I'm not very familiar with these. But when I went to the auto parts store to order a cap for the aforementioned vehicle, the cap is one with the coil in the cap. Does this sound right? The way I understand it, HEI has the coil in the cap, and aren't points and HEI completely different?

 

Oh, you definitely want to skip the points dist and go with an HEI - brand new they're only $125

 

I know that'd be the best way to go, but that isn't really available for me. I'm 16 and disposable income is virtually non-existant. haha. So we're just gonna have to do our best with what we got.

 

Ok, we got a pretty good deal on an HEI, so that's the route we went. We got everything hooked up and ready to go, with the exception of the fuel pump situation, but we're just going to pour gas in the carb to get it running in the meantime. Of course, it didn't fire....then it got too dark to work on it.

We're sure it's getting fuel, obviously. And it turns over fine. So the only thing left is spark, right? What is the most common solution to this problem? I've heard about the distributor being 180 off? Could you elaborate on that a little, please?

Thank You.

 

You have to stab the dist when the engine is at TDC on the compression stroke. The engine makes 2 revolutions for each "cycle" - one time around the mark on balancer is at TDC on the compression stroke, the next time it's TDC on exhaust stroke. You can stick your finger in #1 plug hole and feel for pressure - when you have pressure in that hole as the mark is coming around to the timing tab, your on the compression stroke - simply line up with TDC mark on tab. Then stab the dist in place, and put the rotor button on - wherever the rotor button points, that post on the cap will be #1 plug wire, then follow around the cap in the firing order.

180* off means that the rotor button is pointing at #1 plug wire, but the dist was stabbed when the balancer mark was TDC on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke, thus 180* out of time.

 

Alright, I understand how that would work. There wasn't even a TDC mark on my balancer, so we were determining TDC by looking at the lifters and putting a finger over the spark plug hole on #1. Problem being, we never marked it...Then we made things a whole lot harder on ourselves by putting the manifold and carb on. So now we looked at the rockers. I still don't think we have it 180 off, though, cause I made sure the exhaust valve wasn't open.

The only thing on the distributor that isn't brand new is the coil pack, which we re-used from our old distributor. We had the same crank-but-no-start problem in the 305, and we suspected it was the distributor. So first thing in the morning, we'll go to autozone and get a new coil and make sure that isn't the problem, cause it's the one that seems to be the most likely at the moment.

 

There should be a mark "cut" into the balancer - maybe it's got gunk in it and your not seeing it? The mark on my balancer is a good 1/32 inches deep - try cleaning it maybe.

The method you describe would put you at TDC on compression - but you could be as much as 40 or more degrees off in either direction - you really need to find an accurate TDC mark on the balancer - you're gonna need it as a reference point to get tuned - as little as 1 degree can make a world of difference when setting initial timing.

 

We'll give it another shot, but we really made it hard on ourselves. I think we're probly well within the acceptable ballpark.

We found out that our MSD 6A box needs a module bypass on the distributor to work. So we ordered that last night, and it should be here in about 4 or 5 days, so we'll let you know when we get it started.

 

I have a question, as far as running a 700R4 with a carb I see many 32' Fords and older cars running SBC engines carbed running 700R4 trans for the OD and gas mileage. Are they using a computer from a third gen tucked away or is there an aftermarket control module per say they can buy to control lockup points? May be something to llok into so you could control lockup. I may be way off, anybody know what the street rod guys are doing?

 

There's several options available to control the lockup. I have a TCI kit installed in mine (requires removing the tranny pan). They involve replacing the solenoids in the tranny, and some rewiring - not hard to do, especially with tranny out of car like mine was. Then they are actuated with a vacuum switch or by manual switch. On mine the vacuum switch crapped out on me, and I just use the manual swith - been running 3 years like this with no issues. I only lock the TC when I'm above 45mph and don't anticipate stopping soon (like highway only). I don't bother in town since I'd be flippin the switch on/off always. I also ditched my cruise control with the carb swap, so I rewired my TC lockup into my cruise control switch on the turn signal lever - no yucky toggle switch disturbing the stock interior.

There are other brands available too. And B&M makes a lockup kit based on speedo input - it's electrical and you don't have to remove the tranny pan - but I have never used it. It's adjustable based on speed, and as a small controller box that you mount on dash or something. Summit carries alot of them - just search torque converter lockup.

 

Ok we are experiencing some problems. We got our MSD bypass cables in today, hooked 'em up, and still got no spark. We're getting fairly frustrated at this point. What else could it be?? New distributor, including cap, rotor, and coil. Plugs and wires are only about a year old, if that. I guess the ignition box itself could be bad? Does anyone know how we would go about testing that? We don't have a voltmeter on hand, but I'll try to go get one tomorrow. Some of the wiring's been seriously hacked up by the PO, so we'll check to see if power is still getting to the wires.

Open to ideas here.

 

Well we had a breakthrough today. I called the MSD tech line to ask them about testing the box and checking voltages throughout the system. I learned that since we tested it and it worked fine, the problem was with the pickup inside the distributor. So we took off the cap, and sure enough, one of the pickup wires was disconnected. Was it a dumb mistake? Yes. Am I glad it was only a dumb mistake? Absolutely. haha.

So we're getting spark now. When we tried to start it, though, it just backfired. So we took out the distributor so I can run the wiring in a more aesthetically appealing fashion, and then we'll work on stabbing it the right way. I'm just glad we finally got spark. Timing should be the only thing keeping it from starting now.

 

Ok. we got it started. finally. and i must say, it sounds mean. haha. sure, its only running open headers right now, but still.

We're going on vacation for a week, so we'll start on what i believe to be the hard part when we get back. That being removing the fuel tank. Still would appreciate any tips on that from someone thats done it before.

Thanks for all your help!

 

ok didnt read why you want to drop the tank. but this is on my car for lock up of the converter. check out this thread. my switch was free. and after about two hours and a little adjusting mine worked great. no pan removal if you have the correct solenoid.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...up-budget.html

 

OK - on the tank drop - yes, you'll need to remove the exhaust. I disconnected mine at the cat, and twisted it out over the rear axle. The trick to the entire tank removal job is getting the rear jacked up as high as possible. Add a chunk of 4x4, or several pices of 2x4 under your jack, and jack the rear under the differential as high as you can (until the nose touches the ground), and get jackstands under the car, on the framerails just in front of where the LCA's attach to the body. You'll need as much room as possible.

Here's a thread I made about tank drop https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...p-not-bad.html

On the TCC lockup - in the sticky atop the carb forum, it explains about determining if your tranny has a normally open (NO) or normally closed (NC) switch inside - read over that and do the test - depending on what type switch you have, you can wire your own TCC lockup without opening the tranny. But as I understand it, it all depends on the type of switch you have.

 

Sorry for the lack of an update, we've been out of town for the past week.

We successfully removed the pump from the tank, modified it to be just a pickup, and replaced it and the tank back in the car. We had to cut the exhaust (not really what I was hoping for). Thank you for that write-up of the tank removal. It was very helpful.

Now all thats left is running fuel line from the existing location in the engine bay to the mechanical pump, getting the throttle cable "nipple" thing to mount it. Mount the throttle return spring (seemingly simple, but giving me trouble). Hook up the electric choke. Reconnect the exhaust. And get it to a transmission shop so they can mount the TV cable correctly so we don't void the warranty.

And, God willing, find an air cleaner that will fit under the stock hood.

Thanks for all your help!

 

Ok we finally have it running for more than 3 seconds under its own power. haha.

We do have a fairly decent sized water leak coming out of the thermostat housing. I don't know if the water isn't going through the radiator hose or what?? And there is a LOT of white smoke coming out of the exhaust pipes. I understand blue smoke is oil, so what is white smoke? Is this normal for the first start up of an engine? I can post a video if needed.

Also noticed the tach doesn't work, nor does the fuel gauge. I can live without the fuel gauge, but need the tach to break in the engine. We bought a pod for oil pressure, water temp, and volts, so those are ok. Just wondering what wire (color, location) is for the tach as I know where the drive is located on the distributor. And where the connection is located for the fuel gauge?

Thank you for your help. We're almost there. haha.

 

White smoke is typically water. At first start-up, it might be assembly lube.

Ironically, the tach wire is white. It should have been attached to your distributor/coil.

 

All's well. The white smoke was indeed water and was backed up by the milky brown oil we found in the pan. Turns out, it was a number of problems. We had the wrong intake gaskets (non-vortec), causing water to leak into the block instead of going through the intake. Our thermostat was also bad, in that it wasn't opening, leading to leaks at the thermostat and extremely high running temperatures. We have fixed both issues, and with them, the problems.

The cam has been broken in, we ran it at 2000-2500 for 15-20 minutes. We've changed the oil twice since we started it the first time. It isn't milky anymore!

We installed a simple aftermarket tach and a 3-gauge pod so we could know what was going on when it really mattered. We have plenty of oil pressure, and its starting to cool down to normal temperatures.

We're sending it to a machine shop i used to help out at to have them time it correctly and do a general "check up" on it. (they're the best there is). After that, it's off to the transmission shop to have them set the TV cable like they'd like so we don't void the warranty, and then to the exhaust shop to have it all tightened up/welded/checked.

We're pretty much done with our end. I just have to work on some of the wiring in the bay. the PS is kinda cluttered and i'm trying to keep them all from burning. haha.

 

OK guys, how bad of a problem do I have here? I'm kinda freaking out. We had the car towed to the machinist so he could look at it. Well, he finally got to it and we went to check on it, he had a number of things he noticed were wrong. The most unsettling of which being that turning the distributor isn't advancing/retarding the timing it appears. The engine doesn't bog down as it should. I'm confident we have the cam in correctly. Not as large a problem are the push rods he said were too long. He ordered them! But those shouldn't be too big a deal. And the vacuum advance diaphragm on the distributor is bad. I

t's worth noting that the current distributor is hooked up to an MSD box, which is run off the magnetic pickup and we bypassed the module. He said he'd try to run an older stock distributor without the box.

What could be wrong??? I'm getting a little worried.

 

Most likely the timing light isn't compatible with the MSD.

 

Forgive my youthful ignorance, but I was under the impression that if you physically turn the distributor, it should change the timing, regardless of the light. I honestly don't know, so please let me know how the light factors in.

 

if im correct about MSD boxes (not entirely knowledgable mind you) they can adjust timing based on load and necessity, so to speak. so when your turning the dizzy and its hooked to the box, its not recognizing that you are manually turning the dizzy to adjust timing, therefore acting like a cars computer and adjusting the timing electronically. i am guessing, but i bet that bypassing the msd boxes pickup is further complicating the matter. so in turn, you must have a timing light that will be compatable with the box, but in my mind, id just get a high output coil and run it full manual. no box (until you can work out all the problems) and have it running normally without any big aftermarket add ons. just my two cents

 

Another problem solved! Went to check on it today, and he took the MSD out and ran the dist. by itself, and its running like a top now. With the exception of a couple nasty exhaust leaks, but those are a non-issue right now. Our new carb should be coming in tomorrow, so we'll run that over and then its off to the transmission shop for Phase II. haha.

Now we just have to figure out how to run the tach without the MSD...

 

should just be able to run the wire from the dizzy to the tach box in the gauge cluster. running wires sux, but thats an option. either that or go down to autozone and pick up one of their suntachs and vacuum kit for about 50-100 bux total, depending on size of the tack. id try to run the wire first, cuz thats free.

 

Yah, we bought one just for the purpose of getting the cam broke in and getting it running right. But it wouldn't work with the dist., but would work with the MSD. The Accel tech line said there's some kind of an adapter or filter or something. So I may have to call back and check on that.

 

Hey y'all, we noticed the other day that the brake lights aren't coming on when the brakes are applied. all the other lights are working well. what could be to blame here? aside from us. haha.

 

So I just noticed I never put up any pictures. my bad.

 

few more.

 

A couple videos of the initial start-ups. The first one is one of the first starts and, as you can see, is where my questions about white smoke came from. haha.

The second one is crappy quality, but gives you an idea of what we're working with. when we get it back, hopefully this week (the guy with the trailer we're gonna borrow is being difficult), we'll take a better video during the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmyak9ge2oc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-qV8tFmrHQ