84CAMARO28inFL

What is it? Is it a 396 from a Chevelle? Or is it an LS6 454?

Also, do "Corvette" engines LARGER than a 350SBC w/ Crossfire (no! Heard bad things except for "how it looks") -FIT- in a3rd Gen?

And im very rusty on what engine is what.. LT4? WS6? LS7? LS1? LT1?

I know im all over the place here, and this is more for "my info" i crrently have a 2.8L V6 that i can FORCE to do burn-outs and im ready to stop it so i dont kill my nice-nice condition trans engine needs lines replaced sooo...

Please educate me. 1) "Largest engine ever ina Thrird gen" and what was it and what were its performance numbers, STREET NOT TRACK lol.. and 2) What is the "most popular engine" BESIDES" 350SBC to go in a Third Gen, DO they come out of Corvette, and why.

I have a 1984 Camaro 2.8L V6 Auto. Thanks!

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

OEM Chevy engines....

Small Block Chevy.....262-400, all the same external dimensions so all will fit & look the same from the outside. Only difference is the size of the pistons inside & length of the crank arms.

Big Block Chevy.....396-454, same as above. Externally identical, internally different.

Aftermarket.....Biggest I know of is the 514, but even it is basically "just a Big Block Chevy", so it fits right in too.


Only issues you can run into are basically things like the intake which affects like a carb. Too tall of an intake and the air cleaner hits the hood. Then you just use something like a cowl induction hood or a hood scoop to clear the air cleaner. The intake can be "too big" for Small Blocks & Big Blocks.

Then even if the intake is short enough, the air cleaner might not fit. Then you just use a drop base filter. A carb spacer can cause the same carb/air cleaner issues & be solved the same way.

For FI, basically the same issues, just a little different in the details. Intake to tall for port FI & throttle body FI (which takes you back to the carb clearance solutions).

That will give you a very basic rundown to start with.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

A big block is probably the biggest engine you can put in these cars without having to do alot of work. Cubes isnt really the concern, its the physical dimensions of the motor itself.

Guys have put in tall deck big block chevy's in these things in race applications. They will fit with big cowl hoods.

I've seen a ZR1 LT5 motor in a thirdgen before and those motors are pretty big too. Not sure if they compare to big block specs or not but it looked big in that bay.
http://www.speedflux.com/1988-chevro...o-lt5-concept/

I"ve seen an 80's corvette with a V12 falconer aircraft engine in it. That was quite impressive and probably the longest motor to fit in a thirdgen...i think it would be possible but havent seen it done.
http://www.corvettereport.com/wp-con...12cylinder.jpg

AlkyIROC

A SBC is externally the same on the outside. Internally the largest factory displacement was 400 CID which can be bored out to 406. Using all aftermarket parts, it's possible to make a 454 SBC that that's a very expensive engine. The 350, 383, 406 or even a 434 are the most common SBC engines and externally, they all look the same.

A BBC can also fit even in a street car. Staying with a short deck block for an easier swap, like the SBC, external dimensions are all the same. 396, 427 and 454 is the common factory displacements but you could also consider the 502 in that category now. The 4.500" bore block can be stroked to easily make a 540 and overboring it can make a 555 or 565. Beyond that and you need to start getting into tall deck or mega blocks which are not suited for an easy swap or street use. A 572 and 632 are tall deck blocks.

There's nothing "special" about a corvette engine now. 40 years ago they were the real factory performance engines but late model f-bodies now use the exact same engine as the corvette but may be tuned differently.

jchaussee

A 454 small block?? That would be interesting. And cool.

AlkyIROC

You could probably build two 454 BBC with the same power level for the price of a 454 SBC.

cuisinartvette

ZR1 engine is HUGE, wide too. Heavy like a BB not to mention and pricy.

Lots of options, are you even looking to build something or just curious?

Starting with a V6 car youre on a slippery spending slope.

What would be fun is putting some boost to your V6 til its on the ragged edge.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its hard to get enough head to feed a 454 size small block while big blocks have superior heads...probably could make a 454bbc for half the cost of the 454 making similar power.

84CAMARO28inFL

Just curious

Please provide more "454SBC" info ? that sounds unique and different.

People also talk about a "396" .. is that a good one?

Again. curious. i have duct tape on my air check vale on my 2.8, this is just mental speculating at my car "doing burn-outs at will, as mine did before i topped up the trans fluid

AlkyIROC

396 is one of the small BBC engines.

Now once you get into the LS series of engines, there are a lot of other weird sizes but can't be compared to the old SBC/BBC platform. The 6.0L (427) LS engine has nothing in common with the 427 BBC other than total displacement.

Finding information about a 454 SBC is as easy as using google.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ine/index.html

http://www.theengineshop.com/product...n-454-engines/

They all make 600 NA HP and cost from just under $12,000 to just over $18,000. They could probably make more power but you're really reaching the limits of a SBC head. The 454 SBC is a 100% aftermarket engine.

Air_Adam

The 6.0L LS engine is 364ci. The LS7 is the 7.0L engine, which is 427ci.

But ya, its a waste of money to build a small block 427 or 454, because you can build a big block with the same or more cubic inches, with a head designed to support those cubic inches, for FAR less money, and probably make more power to boot.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

There are some good large sbc heads that will feed those motors fairly well and make gobs of power...but not sure if its gonna be as cheap as a comparable bbc build...the heads would probably cost similar depending on what you get but a good sized BBC head has a good 20-40cfm over a 23 deg sbc head and even altered angle heads need more cam lift on a sbc to match a 300+cc bbc head.

AlkyIROC

You could use an SB 2.2 head or a Dart Little Chief head but the intake, exhaust manifolds, valve train, pistons, etc would all need to be changed as they share nothing in common with the SBC design. This isn't a cost saving idea as they're very expensive but it's the best way to make huge amounts of power with a small block.

Unbolt my BBC heads and put them on the table. Including valves, rockers, springs etc, I put an estimated replacement cost of $5000 for the heads. They flow more than enough for my 540 but at the high rpms I spin the engine to, I need the air flow.

Some mild ported BBC 781 iron heads with 2.19/1.88 valves on a basic 454 BBC will easily flow more than big expensive 23* SBC heads.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

If all you want to do is burn some rubber a stock 350 TPI engine does it pretty well.

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

"Most popular engine besides 350SBC to go in a third gen": I'd say either 383 SBC or LSx. There are a lot of people on this site that have done the LSx swap. The LSx engines come in all kinds of different vehicles. From Corvettes to Camaros to Trucks. Are you serious about swapping your engine?

327sleeper88

lol just for kicks...

you can do a Merlin super block (BBC) and get 705 CID. 11.625 deck height, 5.3" stroke x 4.6" bore. that would be pretty big. it makes power at street friendly RPM, but uses top notch parts...

This particular build made completely street-friendly power:

961 hp @ 5800 rpm AND 951 LB/FT @ 4700

AlkyIROC

But as I already said, tall deck and mega blocks are not suited for an easy swap.

andy74

and sure arent budget friendly either!

KMK454

I disagree... it depends what he's going for. Keep in mind that the LSx in 427 or 454 will be a smallblock package, meaning small block size, weight, and weight distribution/CG. Also, add in fuel injection, advanced technology, and the extra costs of big cube smallblock LSx start to make sense. The LS7 is an incredible motor.

84CAMARO28inFL

Im serious about learning whats involved. There is NO RUSH, i can plan for a couple/few years.. and amass parts ? down the road. i can get a few more years out of my V6, and for now im interested in learning the ABCs of "Engine building."

Is the LS7 the 7.0L that comes out of a "2006 Corvette "Z06" ? That motor is 505HP, and is reDONKulous!

Or is it the NEW ZR1 (2008, 2009) Corvette motor ?

I dont have a garage and tools and time, or even money.. i have a parking space, "friends," craigslist, and a thirst for knowledge. Yeah, tire-spinner.. i KNOW im gonna "break" the V6 FORCING it to spin the rubber.

This is my car, two views. hat do you think?

And i thank you for all the input. My uncle has a built-up "502 Crate motor" in a 59 Nova w "narrow rear-end" that does 12.4sec Q-mi at "109MPH" some years ago.. t might have gotten faster since then. Full interior, leather, radio.. 6 or 8 point roll cage, stuff from "Summit racing" and "Ceater slicks" and a NICE "Custom Grey Flake Metallic" paitn job.. this is my reference. its a 69 Nova, though.

Hereis mine




My uncle's 69 Nova, NOT STOCK except for Interior (?)

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

There is a ton of information on this site, LS1tech and a few others that will help you tremendously. Also, go buy engine building books and get yourself a subscription to Chevy High Performance or Super Chevy. That will help a ton. That is how I learned.

Just be realistic when you finally decide to do something. Talking about huge motors is fun, but realistically, dropping a TPI'd 350 or LSx in your car would be plenty of fun without costing you an actual fortune. Once you move past a moderately modified 383 or LSx you start exceeding the limits of other parts on these cars which gets real expensive real fast to modify the car to be able to handle the extra power! An upgraded differential alone can be in the neighborhood of $3k for a 12 bolt or 9" that can handle the power. So hopefully you can see where I am coming from.

I'm not sure exactly what year of 'Vette the LS7 came in. I haven't really kept up with it. You can get those engines as crate engines though. They are somewhere between $14k and $21k! Way out of my price range

Where are you located in Florida?

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

He was comparing a Gen 1 small block to a big block.

You're right about the LS engines. The heads flow like a big block. It hardly makes sense building a street big block any longer with the friendly fuel injected LS engines that can be built.

84CAMARO28inFL

Jacksonville

Marv02

Allison V-1710 aircraft engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_V-1710

Ya you have to do some cutting here and there some welding banging with a hammer.

But when you were done it be one off thats for sure.

LOL

Not because you have the most displacment it meens you have the biggest power.
You want Useable power is the Key the right amount at the right time or all you be doing is going nowhere fast but breaking parts all the time and throwing more money into a car that will never work right.

A Big Bore Stroked SBC would be your best bet, then dont forget with more power you have to build everything else in the drivetrain to handle the extra power.

And start looking on beefing the Chasse up also ya it never ends I sure hope you have a big bank account it wont be the time you get done.

A smart build you be better off with enought power the car will be fun to drive and wont make you go broke doing so.

IrocTheZ28

Good thread. You are power hungry for sure!

Looking at the pics I'd fix the body and prepare the suspension and rear engine drivetrain for all that punishment to the pavement.

Hard tops are suited well for this abuse than a T-top Camaro or Firebird but the aftermarket is excellent for upgrades. Best of luck there!

AlkyIROC

My car is a T-top

IrocTheZ28

I've seen in extreme cases some kind of quarter panel warpage from all that torque from a BBC. Unless the vehicle wasn't upgraded, should that be taken in consideration first?

Just curious since T-Top vehicles suffer more from some sort of chassis twisting in the long run as 3rd Gens age at the internal chassis structure.

The OP has a nice plan of ideas to begin with but if it was for my Camaro I'd consider strengthening the body first. I have read that the convertible F-Bodies are the worst for body flex given a radical idea of a motor to begin with.

Alky, your post from 4/12/2008 shows me you have taken your Camaro from SFC to roll bar and then to a cage setup only because your desire to take it to unforseen levels of power and meet legality issues at the track. I love your sig pic, its bad azz! https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...sis-twist.html

I guess I'm getting confused what the OP really wants on the long run since he mentioned this will be a collection of parts over the years from now by dropping the biggest engine. I think the best approach would be what would be the safest way to live behind such a powerful motor. To each their own...

AlkyIROC

If you stick an engine producing huge amounts of power into an unmodified car, you can expect other problems to occur. It's always a package deal.

Many, many years ago when I only had SFC, a basic 6 point roll bar and still used torque arm suspension, I was wrinkling the floor from the amount of force the LCA were creating but I never had problems with the body. As I got faster, I had to finally install a full cage and up to that point, I still never had any body cracks or wrinkles. The way the car is set up now, the body provides very little structural integrity. Although most of the body is complete, it's just along for the ride.

Acquiring parts over the years to build an engine is a poor way of doing it. Chances are you'll lose interest in that time or sell the car before completing your goal. Too many project vehicles just sit around and are never finished. You either run what you currently have or jump right in with a new fully assembled engine that's at least close to what you want. You can always modify later on to change your goals. It's taken me 10+ years to get the car to where it is now but I've also been using it for 10+ years. If you want a BBC or an LS engine, buy one and drop it in. Modify it later as funds allow. If you just want to keep it inexpensive and simple, drop in a 350, 383 or 400. They'll all provide more than enough power compared to the original V6. There are a lot of people quite pleased with the power increase from using a stock 305 and switching to a mild 350.

Gumby

There is allot of room once you get ride of all the stock stuff.

here is a Buick 455 in one [funny I have known 3-4 of these projects, it starts, its built, its done and then the owners go MIA never to be heard from again. Which make me think its a bad idea, the Buick 455 is so powerful in such a light car [originaly designed to move tanks] it opens a riple in time and folks are never heard from again.]

84CAMARO28inFL

I used to have a 1986 BMW 325es (that car is SUPER kick ***, trust me on this. 2.7L Inline, 6, 4800RPM redline yes you read that right, oh baby.) and every hard corner i was in, i was thinking "without a suspension brace bar for the rear going from rear strut to rear strut, im bending it every time i corner so hard i lift up the inside wheel."

I have more pics of my car. its perfectly suited to an eventual "something" right now the V6 runs pretty darn good, so this is a few years out maybe?, but once i get my DAMN TITLE (oy. Military guys. Im tellin ya, i hope i see it i need to "Stay on him" im sure it will happen") its MINE, and im plannin. ) .. not "perfect, but here are the pics..

Oh and what do yall think of my Uncle's 69 Nova, with WTC in the background.

heres mine...

cel19

What about weight issues?? Will a 454BBC not be tempted to f*** with the strut towers. Are there any upgrades that you have to make from swapping 355 to a 454. perhaps all new stronger suspension materials??

84CAMARO28inFL

If i really, REALLY drive my car like i dont care if it lives or die,s i can get it to do roughly "this."

Notice he is smoking the tires and they are likely "chirping" away, since he looks to be just starting that slide and there isnt a lot of smoke. Thats about what my 6-banger can do



And my car looks better than that one, IMHO.

I lost a "project Jaguar" (!!!) due to lack of money, so my Camaro means a lot to me. Even if it keeps its V6.

Please tell me about UPGRADING THE CARB on my V-6 2.8, id likely be fine and dandy with that, in all seriousness, working out my trans and all, thank you

face215

Sonny's 900 ci pro mod motor???? hey just throwing it out there!!

cuisinartvette

TRUTH!! LOL.

Cant tell you how many times Ive changed directions on a 10 yr project;many times wanted to give up, can it all and forget about it.

Going fast is much more involved then just the motor..you got the rest of the drivetrain components to upgrade. Starting with a V6 car youll pretty much take everything out and toss it, all of it.

OP...Look, the best way to do this is leave your V6 car alone....save as much as you can and buy one thats done or reeeal close to it. Let them spend the money, take the hit then you pick it up for a fraction of what they have in it and go play. Otherwise youll have a parts car sitting around for yrs stressing on how to get money, you got ripped off, nothing is bolt on, crappy parts, etc. Been there done that wrote the book. More times than not IF you finish it youll be so burned out youll never want to see another car in your life lol. Thats why you see the ones that DO get done are being sold with usually less than 100 miles on it. They are just plain mentally exhausted from the journey;the magic is gone so to speak.

When youre in a better position down the road meaning having more experience, time tools and money then go build your dream rod.

Doing the things youre talking about could easily cost you 15-20k, usually more depending. Its never enough.

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

I think the question is, what's the biggest engine you can afford?

This block was already mentioned, but as a whole engine from Sonny's. 5.3" BS billet block from CN. Minimum bore of 5 inches. They're good for over 900 cubic inches. Although, I'm pretty sure there are only 3 sets of heads made for this block, and they run in the $10,000 range.

http://www.cnblocks.com/5300BBC/5300BBC.html

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

Yep, GM style Hemi heads for the 5.3 block from Sonny's run about $15,000.

Good luck.

http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/c...pherical-heads

Or, for about the price of those heads, you can buy a nearly complete 11.5:1 compression 632 big block with close to 1,000 horsepower from CME. It'd pretty much rip your car in half, though.

http://www.cmengines.com/Engines/Str...5/Default.aspx

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

toolegit86

i would love to see this in a camaro... only problem is i would have to sell my house just to fund the motor..

http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/e...derate-systems

AlkyIROC

With enough time, money and fabrication skills, just about any engine can be swapped into any car but that doesn't mean it will be practical. Keeping it within reason, stick to any SBC or a short deck BBC. Olds, Pontiac, Buick or Caddy engines also make good candidates but they're not a direct drop in.

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

GE T700 turboshaft turbine out of a apache chopper isnt army surplus great

cuisinartvette

Am I seeing that pic right or is that radiator secured into place with zip ties?

Gumby

lighter then real mounts n legal

jchaussee

91K for a flippen engine??

KITT1983

iTrader: (3)

that is for boat racing

affliction1

(this is the biggest motor u can put in a camaro)
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/7...ock/index.html

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

That's one crazy engine! It probably wouldn't even fit in a 3rd gen