KNanthrup

So my buddy and I just picked up a 3rd gen Camaro for free a few weeks ago. Randomly we decided that we are going to build it for The Race Across America competition for fun.

The competition is basically a setup where you must drive your car on the road to different events (so the car must be street legal and drivable) and at each event your car is tested in a different performance category. They range from drag strip, slalom, road course, etc. and you get points for each based on how well you do. So the car must be well balanced in each field.

First of all I want to explain our resources. He owns a wrecking yard so we have LOTS of stock style parts we can use (engines, rear ends, frame parts, etc.) which is where we are trying to save money, although some aftermarket parts will obviously be needed. We also have some very useful tools like every kind of welder, a giant lathe (driveshaft, etc.), multiple compressors and special tools.

Now, I need suggestions as to what to put into this thing, we have just begun to come up with ideas. For the engine we're thinking a 406. A big block would be lots of grunt but too heavy for the handling parts. A well built 406 should get the job done for straight line work. As for the suspension... well I don't really know. I was thinking we should fabricate an independent rear setup but he wants to go solid axle. Maybe a long truck arm setup would work well? He mentioned a 9inch but I think it may be a little too heavy for our needs. I'm not sure what the 12 bolts weigh, I was also thinking a ford 8.8 its about 40lbs lighter and pretty stout, I use one in my smallblock powered S-10.

Now I haven't really gotten a chance to go over the 3rd gen chassis yet so I'm not sure what will work and what won't but I'm looking for your guys's experienced input on this.

We're doing the competition for fun so I'm not going to dump tons of money into it, we're looking to do all of our own fabrication based on what we have with the exception of needed aftermarket parts (like engine build, certain suspension parts, etc.)


So with that, lay all the ideas on me!! Thanks guys


-Kevin

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Since you say you have a junkyard, and even if you dont have one in the yard you can probably purchase one cheap, i'd suggest using the LT1 / T56 from a 94-97 Z28 /TransAm/Formula/SS.

The stock axles in these are weak, but unless you are changing tires for each event you'll likely be on something with less than ideal traction, limiting the likelyhood of you breaking the stocker.

Factory a/c delete box and idler pulley will help you get some weight off the nose.

89_ho_rs

with a 406 you will need sfc's and upgraded lca's and pan-hard bar.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Try replacing "406" with "thirdgen"

KNanthrup

Thanks for the replies guys, keep em coming.

As for the tranny. Yeah I was thinking stick might be optimal here. The only place an auto would shine is the drag strip and we probably won't be running quick enough to make that a huge factor as it is, ive seen plenty of T56's run 10's and better.

As for the suspension... it's pretty much to the drawing board for that. I'm not real familiar with the 3rd gen chassis and probably won't get a good look until we pull the body off. I was thinking we might need something like a multi-link rear. Maybe you guys can give me some more details on that. We can pretty much chop it up and start from scratch if we have to. I have limited knowledge in multi-links but I think my buddy knows more, he ran circle track for some years.

Thanks guys,

AM91Camaro_RS

well, first of all, its a unibody car so you won't be pulling the body off of it. but, i don't think you'll need a multilink suspension. with the factory type setup (with adjustable LCAs and adjustable torque arm) you should be fine. plenty of adjustment in those pieces to make many changes. also need adjustable panhard bar. then, put some bigger sway bars on it and try to do anything you can to get body flex out of it. that's about all i can think of right now.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Sticking to JY parts… get a 400 out of a 70’s truck or even big car and some heads off of a vortec truck. Some aluminum vette heads would be OK also (I hate them, they flow badly, but can be made to work with a minor clean up and the 50# off the nose would be a big advantage everywhere, especially anyplace you require the car to handle).

An LT1 would be nice also… nice power band for something like this, and you might find one with a T56 behind it. Iron heads are heavier, they also flow better so it’s a toss up.

Be aware that any SBC is going to be heavy compared to other similar displacement engines. With the resources that you have you could end up with Interesting combinations:
- 5.0 ford will take about 200# off the nose of the car… you’ll loose some low end, but gain handling and a lighter car. Lighter cars are always more durable, also the 5.0 is more compact which will make working on the thing if you have to easier.
- How about a small block mopar? It’s still marginally lighter then an SBC and very similar in design so things like headers would be easy to adapt. Also comes with killer, low valve angle heads and you could get “fast burn” style stuff as far back as the late 80’s/early 90’s in very pedestrian cars (IE, cars worth nothing)
- Pontiac… killer heads and some pretty radical production cams if you really don’t want to go aftermarket.
- Cadillac 472/500. they weigh within 50# of a SBC, will get similar or better gas mileage, and well, 500ci… can you say BIG, FAT, STEAMING TORQUE? It’s not that hard a swap and you can even modify some big block headers to work on them. Make your own pan and mounts, all the aftermarket stuff sucks (I just did the swap in a 67 LeMans)
- A rover/buick V8 would be badass, light… along those lines maybe a light V6? Being a power freak if I did either one of those I’d probably boost it, considering the rest of the use it would probably be with an eaton blower off of something like a t-bird.

If you’re going to spend money on aftermarket parts the heads are probably the place to go wrt performance.

Corvette IRS isn’t as hard to fit as most people make it out to be. A later 300Z rear would be an interesting swap also. It would allow you to get better handling with a much more supple rear suspension, but the ultimate IRS setup will not have a significant advantage over the ultimate stick axle setup unless you’re on some really bumpy tracks.

Do some measuring, I suspect that you’ll find that there isn’t room to do it unless you want to be sitting with the front 15” of the truck arm up your butt… Have swapped those before, and they can be made to work, simple and effective, but they’re big.

I like the 8.8 idea. 9” weight really depends on parts, it could be anything from lighter then a 12 bolt to significantly heavier. Probably not heavier then a dana 60.

The ford 8.8 is pretty much a clone of the chevy 12 bolt (almost identical in every dimension), so it would be up to what you can get easier and get cheaper parts for (90% of the time that will be the 8.8).

I’d probably choose based on strength and availability, and make weight a secondary (I’m upgrading to a moser 9”, I care about handling and unsprung weight, I care more about the 7 axles that I broke since about ‘98… the hassle sucks. It would suck worse when you’re going across country).

Just make sure that whatever you do make for it is made well. I’d stick with simple and durable over trick and super effective. Costs will get out of control quickly if your cobbled together trick piece starts spraying parts all over the interstate 1000miles from home.

MrDude_1

bah, just toss a LS1 in it and win the thing.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

Talk about weight reduction

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

yea, LS1's are all over the jy's...

rcwest32

An LS series engine weighs about 150 lbs. less than an iron Gen 1 SBC. Toss in an Optima battery and a few other odds and ends and you are 200+ lbs. less off the front of the vehicle Plus the LS series heads flow as good as any aftermarket Gen 1 head! Hard to beat, IMO, and you can take them out to 402 cubes if cash allows!!

1983Fbody

LS1 drivetrain would be nice, the rear axle might even last your whole trip with a housing support, aftrmkt axles, and one of those bearing support diff. covers. You could also snag the front brake setup off the LS1. use Poly bushings everywhere! The stock lower control arms can be boxed in, the panhard should be adjustable if you are lowering it. I think ZR1 wheels would offer you most bang for your buck 17x11 all the way around. other parts you might snag off an LS1, seats, rear springs?, rear control arms. A couple turbo's off of those new superdutys, duramax, etc. could come in handy.

The LS1 Truck blocks (iron) are stronger if you plan on a serious engine build up, I think they can handle more stroke, boost, etc and they are also a whole lot easier to find in a jy. The extra weight would suck, probably a better engine choice than an LT1 though if I had to choose between the two and an alum. block was not available.

What year/type thirdgen do you have?

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

About as common as a usable 400 block, at least around these parts.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Huh, I know where a usable, unmolested 400 is sitting in a truck in a local JY right now, I’ve never seen an LS1 in a jy. People just aren’t looking as hard and can’t seem to tell a 305 from a 400, so they don’t know to grab it. Since I do spend entirely too much time around a speed shop I do occasionally come across deals like brand new wrecked cobras… but by the time they hit the JY they’re usually stripped of anything usefull.

Now secondly, lets get real here… any one of the old school combinations could be done for a fraction of what the LS1 swap could be even if he lucks out and finds one. Secondly, unless you’ve got a truck block or an LS6 block you are just about guaranteed that you’ll have oil control problems with it. If you don’t you’re guaranteed that you will after you beat on it for a couple of thousand miles. It’s not uncommon for LS1’s with blowers or that see regular road race use to need their first rebuild at between 6K and 30K miles. There’s a reason why the LS6, LS2 and truck blocks have different main webbing and why there have been something like 6 redesigns of the piston rings on them as well as a pile of TSB’s for oil control issues.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

Well, I don't know the scene down there in DC but up here 400's are hard to come by. I searched for two months to find my block. I bet I can pick up the phone right now and find at least 3-5 complete LS1's in west Michigan. That is just my experience.

MrDude_1

you need to do more research.
i wont bother typing the book i needed, to explain everything i disagree with in your post.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

It might be the kinds of places we end up looking… I’m usually at a u-pull-it because that’s the only kind of JY in the area that doesn’t charge an arm and a leg (the normal JY’s around here actually charge within some percent of what it would be to buy from the dealer, and I’ve found that GM body parts at my cost are cheaper new then at a JY). The normal JY’s around here get the nice stuff often, but they charge big $$$ for it, which I assumed would take it out of contention for a cheap build. The u-pull-it lots usually have plenty of old stuff but very little late model stuff and when they do you better get to it quick, it gets hacked up in a day or so.

No book needed… you’re an idiot, that’s enough.


As far as disagreement about my assessment of LS1’s… I don’t care, I see a few up at the shop a week that are doing the choo choo, chug chug out the oil fill/breathers (read: big time blow by), I know of a local parts guy that deals with them by the truckload and my cousin has had his replaced 3x under warranty in 30K miles for “excessive oil use.”

Get a 02 and up block (basically when everyone got an LS6 block), and the later revision dykes rings (bandaid fix something like #7) and you’ll finally have something that won’t push oil past the rings. Either that or get a stable short block like the iron truck blocks or the current model stuff.

KNanthrup

Guys no need to fight here. I see both of your points.


Now, unfortunately we do not have any good LS1's/LS6's in the yard. It's a smaller one and the few that have come in were sold pretty quickly. We do have a lot of access to any size smallblocks though, infact we have 3 of them inside the main shop we can use which I why I mentioned it in the first place.

Now I 100% agree that lightweight is the main key in this project because it universally helps handling, acceleration, and braking all in one package, but unfortunately we do not have an LS1 to work with. Also I don't know how much fun it would be to have to wire it all up with the computer and all the harnesses and whatnot when this thing is completely stripped already.

The other thing is power. LS1's make great power, but unless we dump some money into lots of aftermarket parts we are not going to match the kind of power we can make with a well built carbed 406, not to mention the simplicity. I dunno, we have a while to go here and it's still all up in the air but considering we don't have any LS engines to work with we will probably still stick around the idea of a 406 or similar setup. We could probably get this thing really pumping with a nasty cam and well ported heads then hit it with a good sized nitrious shot when needed for the strip.

Still at the drawing board guys, thanks for the help. We plan on checking out the subframes and getting ready to weld in lots of extra support to make this thing rigid as possible.

rocluvr0013

Tying the two seperate subframes into each other via 'subframe connectors is a very popular and helpful mod. Theyr also nice to keep the hood from touching the brakelights in the unlikely even of getting traction...

rocluvr0013

My recommendation for power is a n/a big cube small block, power to weight its the way to go, reliability and ease of tuning are nice as well. A little nitrous can be thrown into the mix if str8 line numbers are lacking...

I know of a street driven iroc powered by a small block on these forums that dips into the 9's on laughing gas w/ no weight redux. This looks like the way to go for your application

Good luck and have fun with this

91sleeperRS

since youre rebuilding a junkyard motor anyway, why not take a 350, and stroke it to a 383?

KNanthrup

Yeah but why go 383 when we can make a 406?

The idea is big cube small block. Big cubes for more power obviously and smallblock because we need to save as much weight as possible.

rocluvr0013

What model opt's, susp., rear? Maybe we can help with narrowing down your search?


It would be great if you could keep us updated on this project, we already have a father/son project chronicled on the engine swap board.

Show some pictures!

KNanthrup

Not sure of options yet I will have to check. I don't think much of it will matter since we're tearing a lot of it apart. Interior is already stripped, suspension is stock right now, 10 bolt rear will be coming out in exchange for something better. I was pushing for the 8.8 but dimensions didn't come out quite where we wanted them. We actually ended up finding a 9incher with huge disc brakes.. seem to have come off a big lincoln of sorts.

I certainly will update the process once we dig into it. It might be a few weeks before we get started as we have a '37 caddy lasalle resto, '36 chevy pickup big block, and a flathead ford model-t ratrod still to finish.

I will take lots of pics, maybe something good will come out of it

Big454blockchevy

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