ok, well this is my first official post here . Ive been trolling this board for about a week soaking in as much as I can. I currently have a fully loaded 2001 Grand Prix GT (no grocery getter jokes ) and am looking for a project car within a year or so. I was about to scoop up a third gen camaro with a 350 (not sure if carb, TBI or TPI) for $2000, but parents said no sports cars (theyre paying insurance) so i found a nice Grand Prix. Im in college and and have a pretty good knowledge of mechanics.

When i first came to this site, I was looking initially for a drag car. But within the past few days, roadracing/SCCA has hooked me. I looked up SCCA on the boards and found a video of camaros and mustangs running on a track and that set it in stone. Im wondering if these cars are really very good for the average joe to use and compete in roadracing/ scca? I dont want a tiny car like a miata or import to race in, so no miatas for me. Any opinons? Am i better off with something else to find to road race in?

My main concern is weight distribution with the heavy v8. But i dont want a v6 either. Can they be made to close to 50/50 (even 60/40 would be good)? It would be a dedicated race car, so lightening it up would be ok. I have been searching the sponsors websites for suspension mods and they dont seem to be that expensive and got me even more interested. Thanks for the help and sorry for all the newb questions

Elliott S.

 

You think that you are hooked now, just wait until you have finished your first driving school. 3rd gens can make for a great track car and 60/40 is very acheivable. There is a whole bunch to consider but if you want a V8 then look for a 1LE car or perhaps a WS6. If you are looking primarily for a RR car then I would look for a car with a T5. Not the strongest tranny but you do not beat the tranny as much as drag racers do. Look for threads that RTFC (Dean) has replied to, he is knowledgable about suspension design for RR. Careful though, he is a V6 fan.

 

If you seriously want info on setting up these cars for non-drag racing, try searching frrax.com. Not that you won't find a lot of great info here too, but that site is dedicated to f body road racing and autocrossing.

 

I'm going to get hell for saying this:
I'd start with a 4th gen w/LS1-T56.
The starting price maybe higher but I think you'd be better off in the long run.

 

If you want to go all out - stuff a 500hp LS motor into a 3rd gen and have fun beating every car on the track (if the car is put together right that is).

 

the only reason i dont want to do this is starting cost like you said, and the relative ease of finding a motor in a junkyard to build up that wont cost me an arm and a leg. I can get a 350 for cheap and a stroker kit for like $1500. Anything over 220 crank power is more than ive ever driven, and i think i would be happy with 300 RWHP car if it handled really good. I know i can probably get it higher in the HP range and that perfectly ok with me . I just want it to handle like its on rails and have a moderate amount of power. If i got it down the drag stip for a mid to high 12 and handled really good, i think i could be satisfied.

 

Nothing wrong with a Grand Prix. I like the look of the Grand Am's myself but like the performance package of the Grand Prix.

The thing about the SCCA is that you can't just build a car and go and compete. What you might think is good may get put into a class where you're the slow one. Read the rulebook and build a car to fit a specific class.

The third gen F-bodies ruled road course racing years ago in the IROC series. A 1988 version was released as a street version of the Players Challange car. Basically a 1LE car.

http://members.shaw.ca/tunedportinjection/pictures.htm
http://www.1le.net/members/Karl_Hunt...le_racers.html

 

i downloaded the rulebook earlier today, and read most of it. Theyre really specific, but I got a general idea of each class.

edit: while I was looking through the SCCA rule book, I got a little confused. For CP class, in 17.10 C 2, it says that the factory manifold and TB must be used which i assumed was the intake manifold. However, in 17.10 E 2 it says aftermarket intake manifolds are unrestricted, so im thinking it exhaust manifolds that are restricted, but under 17.10 N states that exhaust modifications are unlimited, so now im wondering what they mean by stock manifolds???

 

If you are looking at the SCCA rules for the "C"Prepared(CP) class,
DON'T! If autocrossing is what you want, start out in the stock classes where the cost is minimal and you can hone your driving skills before trying to get a fast car and learning the hard way just how EXPENSIVE the faster classes are. For example the "Prepared" classes are for semi tube framed race cars with almost unlimited budgets to race at a national level.
Check out your local scca region for autocross events near you
then go talk to the people who have the type of car you are interested in

Hope this info helps . Good luck

 

I would agree, with no experiance, CP is not where you want to be at, if you are planning on actualy being competative. Most CP cars, are below 3000lbs, have abotu 450-500hp on tap. It is by no means a beginer class. (yes I am the only car at every event, with backseats in CP, and I am several seconds behind on my BEST day.)

What do you have done to your car currently, you best move, is likely a tune up, and then go out, learn to drive what you have, before you start spending money. The driver is always the weakest link.

 

haha, no way am i gonna think about driving in CP. That was just something that caught my attention. Sure i was reading through CP dreaming, but im not really thinking about doing it. Street prepared is probably what ill be aiming for, nothing more.

 

I was going to mention www.frrax.com as well but thought I would let someone else bring it up first. Great site, very active, just pay attention to the information and not the arguements that come from too many good approaches in one place. There is no one best way to go, but there are always opinions. I run in street prepared and was getting beat by 2 seconds at every event by an LS1. I hope to gain on him this year with good tires and some other mods. I love my third gen and would have it no other way but in autocross every car is fun and it is usually around $25 to run.

 

There is nothing wrong with learning to drive in a CP car. You can start slowly and work your way up as you develop the car. Sure, you probably won't be competitive the first few years (you probably won't be competitive in anything the first year, for sure), but you will easily be able to gauge your progress with how you are finishing with respect to your fellow CPers. And, you will be hard pressed to find a nicer bunch of folks to hang around with, IMHO.

Whether you go road racing, or Solo, I would recommend you look for a nice car that is already built. The PO will have made ALL the required mods, and most, if not all of what I call the nickle-and-dime mods that tend to eat up a budget before you ever turn a wheel. Sure, the cost may be higher than if you drug something home to build yourself, but it will be WAY cheaper in the long run. It will let you concentrate on learning to drive and do only the mods that will help your car become better, more powerful and more reliable.

HTH.

 

Gene,

The only diffrence I see, is that a car as capable as a CP car, using race tires, may 'mask' driving problems, due to the sheer speed of the car. In a slower car, on street tires, those mistakes will be more apparent to him. I really would suggest driving a slower car on street tires the first year.

But again, that is my opinion.

 

Regarding front to rear weight distribution.....my car is pretty light....3280lbs with 3\4 tank of gas ( That includes a full Road Race spec Roll Cage ). 53.7% frt\46.3% rear.

This is a full interior street driven car.

Edit: BTW...My car is SCCA CP legal. Also SM legal. Would be a very competitive package in the right hands. Fully sorted as well.

 

Well, there are several good pieces of advice on here. If you really want to build a spec car, then first attend a driving event somewhere. SCCA has a website for your region, and you can see the event schedule.

If you want to see a max effort no rules DE car, see my pics.

 

Hmmmm...looks interesting. Nice car!! Sound is real sweet in video

 

I have almost never learned a damn thing from driving schools. I walked away from the two I have attended being very bored and disapointed at the restrictions they mandate you abide by until you progress under their agenda, not your ability. I had many people I know tell me that driving schools were not for me, boy where they correct.

I say almost in the above paragragh. The one single thing I learned was to keep my mouth shut and play by the rules/ listen to authority. There of course are guidelines to be followed at any event so the best thing a driving school can do is teach control- "personal attitude control" that is. If you can make it through the boredom of a driving school, you have the patiences and obedience to associate in any racing forum and the common BS that is often present. Their is always one chief somewhere at every track or event that you will not like or see eye-to-eye with. And driving schools have many of these characters.

As for class restrictions and building a car? I take as much money as I can afford and build a car as fast as I can make it regardless of rules. Then I find a place I can drive that car- I try and have personal fun and drive faster than any car on that track, regardless if I am legal for a trophy or not. I would rather just run for fast time rather that be slower under restrictions to win a particular class. Its the top or nothing. And lately with this little V6 its taking a big underdog and surprising the crap out of everyone that later sees what the heck it is. I just love cornering fast, and doing something different. I am putting an Acura V-tec and 5-speed into a '67 Mini I just bought less than a year ago. Its not class legal, but it'll be a blast stmpping vintage Vettes and Porsches the day I get this thing finished.

Any time I get a chance to get one of my cars on a track, I just try and make the car faster than the last time I drove it. I race myself and it pushes me on engineering skills. I don't care what I drive, but when I drive it, I like to bring it in-tweek it- then take it back out and see it take me faster.

 

Elliott, Getting a 3rd gen is a great choice. I got my 3rd gen for 300 bucks. Tossed in a LT1 and that put the car into CP. Most cars in CP have so much stuff done to them, they break down allot (mostly the ones with carbs..got to love injection!!) Yes, I get my butt kicked, but who cares! The way the break down, I have a few 1st place in class days. Last car I autocrossed was differant, so I am still learning how a camaro handles. BTW, it runs 13.7 with a stock engine and a 4l60e. Most of the suspension pieces are ESP parts, but the SFC's will be going on next week and that will put the car into CP for sure.

I have instructed at a few autocross schools and the drivers were very happy when they left. What I can say to you, get a car, drive it at a few events and add a part or two, then drive a couple events, add a couple more parts and so on. It also helps to start with a good street tire.

Last, where the heck do you run your car RTFC? It sounds like you have a bunch of jerks around there! Out here, we have a class for almost anything (no suv's) and even a club thats loves big v-8 iron and they give us a BIG track to spank our cars at! Plus we have tons of people that will always give rides and help you learn to go faster! Good luck and have fun with this! Thats what is most important!!

 

RWB__s above I gaurantee will 2nd what I say. I know for a fact the he has a a run in with a few people at one autoX event here in So.Cal.

Everyone here in So.Cal is fast, thing here is, most with real talent AND money go into road racing and don't screw around in autoX long unless they are in one of the many "club clicks". I have ocationally over the years taken a car to the local AutoX events after building one just to screw around and test it. That one day every few years is enough to remind me oif the jerks that run the local one ( Should I mention a name of an ******* that should have retired 20 years ago when I used to run fairly regularly on Dick Guldstrands GRA team?) His initials are Craig Angel.

Everyone here in So. Calif has that "Click" attitude at any event. Everyone is arrogant... maybe even myself, but I don't do clicks, I put my money where my moutn is- Just ask any of the local TGO click, they all know me and won't step up to the plate when I've put them up on bets.

 

Ok, so it sounds like you are from so-cal. One weekend when you are bored, come up to merced and run with the big dogs. http://www.americanauto-x.com/ There is no attitudes and these guys love american iron, plus it is big, fast and sticky! As far as fast goes, many of the national champions will show up at these events, so you will have something to shoot at. Btw, if you want to see some pissed off german car owners, we will be at quallcom in San Diego on the 19th with our impala's. My car can spank some butt and I will be a instructor that weekend for a few other drivers to bring them up to speed.

 

An Impala being a Big Dog? You've got alot to learn about So Calif., especially the money and hotrod industry in Orange County.

Make it worth my while and I will gladly meet you in San Diego for a wager.

 

Good luck on your endeaver, but be forewarned, the way to make a small fortune in racing is by starting with a big one.
Just because you can build a track car doesn't mean you can race it, at least race it and do it right. In the long run the racecar actually becomes the least expensive piece of the puzzle. Don't forget you still have to have a tow vehicle, motels, fuel for the car and rig, entry fees, any race damage, and tires, lots and lots of tires. Even if the organization uses a tire rule, new tires are always faster than old tires. I used to race an MG midget, towed behind my F150, slept in a tent with an ATV for crusing the pits. I was the driver crew chief, wrench, everything. I was on a budget, and did OK, never up front, but I wasn't spending their kind of money either. The key to this whole race thing is, and don't ever forget this or your screwed.... the key is, ARE YOU HAVING FUN?
I know winning is fun, but unless you have a sponsor, it's also expensive, fun is a lot cheaper.