my friend told me about a sweet *** idea, get this say youve got 2 turbos, screw twin turbo hook the exaust from the one up to spin the others spoul. think of how much power that would add. or the other thing he thought of would be hooking the turbo to an intake of a supercharger. id like to know if anyone has tried this yet? its a really good idea.

 

i believe the point in having a smaller turbo spool a big one is to create insane amounts of boost. Those levels probly arent needed unless for a full out race car but even they dont use a system like that . A single medium sized turbo matched to the motor's cubic inches and airflow requirements will perform much better.

As for turbo/super charger idea, i seen it done before where a turbo system blew air into a blow thru carb setup on top of a roots blower. Dont see the point in that but it looked amazing. LOL
I

 

tell your friend to look into compound turbos. You know, those john deer tractors with 200 PSI, a maze of pipes, 2 or 3 turbos, and water injection just to dragging things around.

I have seen some cars that have twin turbos going into a supercharger in hot rod mags of the past. dont see much of that stuff around anymore.

Something that I have been thinking about, what if we could get 2 compressor housings to run off one turbine housing? there would be an inertia issue with another wheel to spin, so spool up would be slow. It's just one of those what if things.

 

Here's a write up from HotRod about compounding turbos.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...bo/index2.html

 

I can't resist showing this thing whenever we talk about compounding power adders:

1- V12 Detroit Diesel
2- GMC 14-71 Roots style blowers
4- Garrett/AiResearch Turbochargers

Low 12's in the Quarter

 

A turbo that has 2 entrys I work on some thing like that.
It is an Aireasearch M-180T gas turbine compressor.
It uses a duel entry diffuser covered impeller first stage and sends the air through cross over ducts to a single entry open face 2nd stage impeller.
It makes about 50psi of air that can be put to use on an air craft of an air craft air conditioner.
What I have been thinking of for a while is useing an gas turbine air supply for the engine, it burns fuel but dosn't take power form the engine in any way (crank or exhasut) to give pressurized air to the engine. It is a little far out there.

 

Working off of the far out there idea of powering a compressure with out using the engine contributeing, what about taking lets say a procharger design where its geared up and rdy to bolt on, what if instead of driving it with a belt, we use an electric motor geared properly to match the max RPMs of the engine then use a BOV or speed controler to match RPMs of the engine, and create boost with out putting strain on the belt assybly and stress on the crank, then u could mount the supercharger anywhere u wanted to

supercharger in front nose of car to make that super sleeper apperance

i have been able to find 1/2 - 3hp electric DC motors that could possibly spin a supercharger up, but a few conserns are, #1 can u find a motor that could properly spin the compressure, #2 can ur electrical system handle that high amp draw, #3 can u handle that constant PSI on the motor if one decided not to use a different means of bringing pressure down ether by BOV (waste of energy then) or by using a speed controller fed input Distributor to a processor to determine speed of motor.

 

Not to rag on these ideas, but some people may be forgetting that it takes energy to run these things (previous post). If you did find an electric motor that could pump that kind of pressure/airflow (let's say 2hp), your gonna be drawing way more than your car's electrical system can handle I think. Let's say it COULD handle it, where do you think that electricity is coming from? The sky? No, your engine works harder to produce the current it would draw so what you're doing is changing from mechanical energy to electrical energy (and losing energy in the process) whereas if you stayed with the procharger your staying all in mechanical energy, less loss. All hypothetical, I'm just trying to show you that the energy has to come from somewhere, it's not like we can just slap on electrical devices that (just because our car has an electrical system) will run other stuff free of using the engine's power.

edit: Sorry Maxx, I see that you say are assuming it could ...1)..2)handle the current draw..3)

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

On another note, with the turbo and supercharger idea, good idea but wouldn't that create lots and lots of heat, particularly in the intake charge??? Jees, I'd like to see a pic of one of those setups in an engine bay.

 

A more than perfect would with free energy would alow any idea to work ^_^ too bad its not

Unfortuneitly i know about the energy thing and that having to change mechanical to electrical and then back to mechanical would be a waste sence we cant get 100% eff. i guess the only way to get over this and not use the current electrical system or mechanical system in thecar would be to use the idea of bringing along a secondary device to create power off of fuel and then some how translate that eventually into the compressure for an add boost lvl to gain more performance but then u also have the extra wieght of what ever is creating the extra energy to create more power.

most effective, easy way to create more power using a device to add more oxygen into a engine comes back to a turbo/supercharger. I favor turbos mostly becuase of the way they use the exhaust pressures and alot of the energy that would normaly be wasted out the tailpipes is transformed back into energy to drive a compressure wheel to push more air back in the engine and then feed that turbo again. Man oh man what a rant before i sleep

now to sleep with out tring to figure out what i was just trying to say that has not already been covered

 

um… yeaaa….

Do a search for the power consumption curves of blowers… they’re out there somewhere. Off the top of my head, a fairly small blower like an eaton M90 moving enough air to make 350hp at 10psi will require about 35hp to spin.

Assuming no loss, 35hp is 26099.5watts. Considering you’re dealing with a 12V system in a car, you tell me where you’re going to find the power to power a 35 hp motor

 

thats just great, I love math!

 

That is why I think the gas turbine would make a great power adder.
I had one the other day hold a 125v 300Amp 3phase load for several minutes. (It was only a 112,500 watt load)
Now load testing the eletrical is the only way I can get a real number from one of these.
Mine can also put out 150lb/min of air at 50psi. It is a big one.
If it can make 100 ftlb of torque at 42,100 rpm that would be just over 800hp.
Places you might be able to find a gas turbine compressor.
APU from an air plane in a junk yard.
Deicer truck.
EPU from some thing like what I work on.
Make one from a huge turbo charger.

 

well the staged(or compound) turbo setups on tractors as you were saying accualy run thier compressors AND turbines into each other.ie air goes in one compressor inducer and out of the exducer into another compressor inducer and then out into the motor or another compressor. the turbine side does the same thing; exhaust goes out of the manifold into the turbine inducer then out of its exducer into the second turbines inducer and then goes from the exducer to the atmosphere or anther turbine. they often run water injection rings with 5-10 nozzles between each turbo to cool things off.and your right they do this to make huge amounts of boost that would be impossible to make at such low rpm with the amount of flow they need. of coarse they are under extreme loads ,so they will produce 240psi much quicker than if they had no load at all. in the early 1980's they could make anywhere from 1500hp-3000hp. but do you think that you could build a bottom end that would take even 100psi? the formula 1 turbo cars of the 80's produced 1300hp in there day and ran about 85psi, turning 15000rpm. they were only 98ci! to fuel these things they used tolulene because it burned so quick and there was not much time for combustion at 15000rpm. amazing, the most powerful hp per ci motors ever made were built 20 years ago! ill scan in a few drawings i did of some staged turbo systems when i get the chance to better explain the idea. oh one other thing...they dont allow staged turbos in almost all forms of motorsports. think of the possibilities......

 

didn't the last of the RX-7's have a twin turbo setup like that where one spools the other I know there is a "supercar" the bugatti EB110 that has a quad turbo system 2 small turbos are used to spool the larger turbo

I've seen the supercharger turbo car before it was some little import car did it to decrease boost lag of the huge turbo

 

before anyone says the word "turbo lag" let me give you the real defintion, and then tell you what people mean when they say"lag". lag is the amount of time it takes for the turbo to produce boost WITHIN the rpm it is able to produce boost.meaning if you hit the throttle at idle and it dose not make boost untill 2500rpm , then you have experinced what is called boost threshold. boost threshold it the rpm or load at witch the engine starts making boost. turbo chargers have a certine rpm range they work best in just like any mechanical super charger, the big difference is the turbo charger is much easier to control when it comes to how much boost it will or will not produce. also to add, the merit of a good turbo system is not defined by its boost threshold or lag. its defined by making usable boost in a usable rpm for the givin vehicle for its main or intended function.i.e. if your drag racing, it would not be wise to build a turbo system that makes alot of boost at very low rpm. not only would you have a very hard time makeing it hook up, but it would not be as fast as one that made more power in a higher rpm. the guy that started the myth that "torque makes a car fast" needs to get his head kicked in. show me a formula for determining 1/4 mile et based on torque, rpm and weight, and ill show you torque monster that runs high 13's.
once when i worked at speedtek, we had a guy come in on dyno day with a 3200lb 78 malibu. it made 244hp and 468tq to the wheels!! and it ran 8.8 in the 1/8. the same et that my 3500lb gta that made 229hp and 330tq ran at the time. how that computes, i dont know, but he only ran 81mph. torque is good but it only takes so much to get your car moving before you better start making some hp . man im gonna have to stop these rants...........

 

That looks like a compound only in the fact it has 4 turbo's.

Those 2 stroke Detroit's are Naturally aspirated WITH the superchager, they DONT run without the supercharger and as so dont count it as a power adder. This was explained to me by a Detroit rep and backed up by senior technicians I talked to. If it were a 4 stroke detroit you would be right on the $.

 

On those detroit diesels the blower isn't a power adder.
I work on I-4 and V6 detroit diesels with blowers.
They both run 1.9psi with the needle in the gauge jumping wildly as cylinders are uncovered and covered.
If the super charger stoped for some reason (it is gear driven so if it stoped it would be real bad) if it could the engine would die because it would be like pluging the exhaust and intake at the same time.
There 2 stroke and need the blower to push exhaust out and fresh air in.
The detroit diesels dont have a pressurised crank case like a smaller gas 2 stroke.

 

Those 2 cycle diesels are pretty cool. It's amazing they actually work. I was under the impression these V12s were 4 stroke judging by the sound (they sounds like a straight-piped Powerstroke diesel). I could easily be wrong though. Its been a while since I seen them in person.

Edit: I just remembered that on of those trucks blew-up in one of the runs- they said it dropped a valve. I would assume that means it was a 4 cycle, but I have heard of 2 cycle engines using one valve per cylinder, so maybe that is the case here.

 

actually detroits use 4 exhaust valves per cyl. with the injector in the middle and the blower (intake) air comes in the side of the liner. at least thats the way they used to be i don't know about the silver 92 series.
But they are under pressure when they use the blower and turbo.

 

I don't know about the 92's I don't have any.
But the 53 serries V6 and the I-4 have slits at the bottem and exhaust 4 valves at the top.
The slits favor a swirling of the air in the cylinder as it's scavinged.
They have an air and water jacket. The pistons have 5 rings, the bores are 5'' I think it was, rods are all most 11'' long and the mains are like 3.5'' or 3.85'' some thing crazy like that.
There made to last for ever.
Every part can be replaced, they even have cylinder liners.
The 53 serries sounds realy bad *** like it's making 400hp @4400rpms but only realy makes about 170hp @ 2500rpms max.

 

Assuming a constant 14.4 volts, it's only 2506.9097222222222222222222222222 amps. The alternator can handle that, right?

 

i have no tv (satalite out and stupid repair guy....) for a few days now. so my mind comes up with stupid ideas. lets say a compressor and tank much like the ones truck guys use for airbags. thats 12v. use the pump and tank. on a single or maybe twin turbo in the turbo intake tube put a valve much like one used for n2o. hook it all to a switch. not the airbag compressor has to put out a few psi to fill those badboys up so at the flip of a switch for a short time you use the air into the turbo to spool it mega fast for a boost increase? just thinkin, i dont know much about turbos but id like to use a small one on my 355tpi i want to build.

 

A 350 uses 10cubic feet of air per second at 6000rpm. How exactly do you plan to build a tank that will hold that much air under pressure that doesn’t weigh more then the potential hp increase?

 

how the hell should i know??? im having tv withdrawl. lol. just a thought. like i said i dont know much about turbos

 

Ok, lets try this another way... that's a cube with roughly 5' sides worth of air in 10 seconds... about what you'd use for a dragstrip pass. Do you have room for a tank that size in your f-body?

 

Haha...I wasn't even going to touch that one.

 

Everyone keeps coming up with off the-wall ideas to make a turbo work better. Fact is a properly sized single turbo system on a SBC can make more power than any one of us can ever use, and still have excellent drivability. Trying to improve upon a properly designed and built turbo system is going to take more than an electric motor or tank of compressed air.

BTW, the air tanks on tractor trailers are filled with by an engine driven pump, not an electric motor.

 

the air tanks to operate the train's brakes on a locomotive are filled by electric motors on most new models but when you have all of that electrical power being generated using a bit of it to run a 300+ hp electric motor just for compressor use is no big deal.

Of course the locomotives also happen to run either one 6 foot diameter turbo or two 3 foot ones. And, they operate like centrifugal superchargers until the motor gets to about 30% of it's 1000 rpm redline.

 

Yeah, why don't we use a twin turbo gas engine to power a generator to power an electric motor to drive the rear wheels of our f-bodys. Just like the locomotives do. Then we would have enough extra juice to power an electric supercharger to help spool the turbos faster. That would be awesome!


J/K

 

no....wait i think hes on to something here...

 

what ever happened to the red white and blue turbine electric Formula-1 type car that had four big electric motors (one on each tire) and really hauled ***?

 

in a year or two i bet youll see this on a honda

 

yeah, as soon as the turbos start showing up on ebay;

"All I need is a little shot of NAWS out of the hole and this baby'll spool!"

 

How about we just start strapping jet engines to the rear of our cars?
Sorry, couldn't help myself. Don't take offence, I actually enjoy reading these kinds of posts. Gives me something to think about.

 

I actually want to do that to an old station wagon, get a small jet engine, rig it up in the wagon area, and have a switch that uses a hydrolic arm to lift the hatch, and then have the engine fire and launch your *** ^_^

 

Actually.......Strapping a jet engine to your car is more feasible than you might think. You can get a pt-6 or a new pw600 turbo prop turbine and have a jet motor thats about the size of a small block. A turbo prop is just a jet engine that turns a prop instead of a fan to make thrust, so you can just hook the output shaft to your tranny, or probaly just to a drive shaft to power your car. The least HP they make is in the neigborhood of 500 hp, and they make up to 2000Hp in the newer models. Just cough up 500,000 to 1,000,000 dollars and your on you way.