Dellz

Hmm in the mist of gathering the books/parts& information to build up the turbo setup for my car i was wondering since i was gana get a deal on the hood anyway for the turbo setup could i mount my intercooler in the place where the ram air box would be on a ss style hood? you know the ram air ones like on the blue camaro at americansoportscar.com possibility? yes no? ne input ..
( Jumping the gun alot outof excitement throwing around ideas )
-Edd

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Dont Race Cops apparently you cant do that! -Dellz

IROCKZ4me

You could do it. Ford did on the turbo 2.3 in the SVO. But it isn't the best placement. The first serious mod to improve the SVO Mustang intercooler is to replace it with a the bigger IC from a turbocoupe. After that the next step up is a larger unit in front of the radiator.

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Tracy /AKA IROCKZ4me
'86 IROC-Z Camaro

• 355 cid
• AFR heads
• Arizona Speed & Marine hydraulic roller cam w/ AFR hydra-rev kit
• modified SLP runners
• TRW forged pistons/ceramic coated
• fully balanced
• Edelbrock headers/ceramic coated
• SLP cat-back
• Paxton supercharger
• Nitrous Express nitrous oxide

My IROC-Z
EFI Performance Club on Yahoo
Club IROC-Z

Dellz

hmm i cant see how putting it on front or where to put it on our cars tho unless i do some serious mods i think :T is there a way to messure how much air is comming into a certin location? if i do put the intercooler on top would the heat from the fuelinjection mainfold and such interfear?

True Power

Well, that'd depend. If you are going for all-out racing and install a water-to-air intercooler, you can mount the thing anywhere you want. I've seen some race-trim cars that have it where the passenger seat used to be. However, I'll assume you're gonna use a more streetable choice: an air-to-air one. In that case, I would think underhood temps would definately affect it. I hypothesize that's why most people mount in front of the radiator - it has first dibs on cool, unrestriced air from outside.

[This message has been edited by True Power (edited January 16, 2001).]

Dellz

Well under the hood but the hood has a opening bringing air in. that was the point hmm

maniacc

Dellz,

The only problem that i see with putting the intercooler under the hood is...most intercooler's are rather big in size and would be a PITA to have to work around....plus i dont think it would be very efficient....unless you cut a huge hole in the front or your hood....but you do what you want....it's your ride....

this is how mine is mounted


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MÅN¡ÅÇ ©
88 IROC 5.7L,edelbrock TES,random tech cat,borla exhaust,chip,sfc,accel wires,airfoil,k&n's,ETC..
and NOW supercharged!!!
http://maniac.megamania.com



[This message has been edited by maniacc (edited January 16, 2001).]

Dellz

well this is what i was thinking of putting it under and insted of it being a ram air hood it would take air into the intercooler now that ive seen yours it dosent seem to be a problem mounting it on the front but still i think it would be a cool twist to mount it under the hood i wouldent do it if it isent sufficent enough tho .. is there a way to mesure how much and how cold the air coming in to a area is?


thats not my car its from americansportscars website


[This message has been edited by Dellz (edited January 16, 2001).]

Dan W

Actually... that vortec aftercooler is very efficant. There is an article about it in the latest (Jan or Feb cant remember) edition of 5.0 mustangs and fast fords. The car was making 8lbs of boost and After Aftercooler temps were never above 120 degrees on an 80+ degree day. This is even with blower discharge temps of over 200 degrees. They even did a sustained 6000 rpm run (like 20 seconds) and it showed high blower discharge temps and that the aftercooler was holding its own. This is with water, not ice or ice water or cold water just the water that was in it when you started it water. The after cooler was cooling the air to 90-120 degrees... no matter what they did to it they couldnt get it hotter. It was dropping intake air temp 30 to 100 degrees from the compressor discharge temp.

True Power

I forgot about that Vortec aftecooler system. That system is kinda a hybrid between air-to-air and water-to-air. If I recall, it runs the water through a kind of reversed water-to-air cooler; instead of the water cooling charged air, outside air cools the water. That cooled water then flows to the actual aftercooler, where it cools the charged air. Like Dan said, it's supposed to be a pretty effiecient system.
As for the ram air, I suppose it could be done, but there'd be a TON of fabricating involved. How would you mount the intercooler? And keep in mind that the intercooler would be on its side. The rammed air would mostly pass across the top of it, instead of through it, which would kinda defeat the purpose. i suppose you could create some sort of casing to channel the air through it, but again, more fabbing, and it most likely still would not be as effective as the traditional spot up front.

Dellz

Hmmm so far i cant find any advantages i guess i dono the fabrication shouldent be tooo bad its just work ( somethign to do )
and mounting i would have to have some bars going over i guess is there a good side to ne of this ? im starting not to think so

Guido

I saw in a magazine once where someone with an ATI procharger put their air/air intercooler on top of the intake (had a mini ram) and an SS hood and got cool air through that. It looked trick and I imagine it worked as well.
Good luck.

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-86 IROC
Vortech stuffed EFI 406 in progress
-=ICON Motorsports=-

askulte

Dellz,
The one thing to consider is size. If you'll have more than 400 hp, the air:air core will be quite large (to be effective). The frontal ambient side area probably won't fit inside the engine bay below the hood. Don't forget that you need just as efficient ducting to get the hot air out from behind the intercooler as well.

If you decide to go with the air:water intercooler (ala Vortech Aftercooler) then the radiator could be a bit smaller, but you still need to deal with the exhausted air. Best bet might be to mount a small pancake fan behind it.

Or... You can do overkill


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Andris Skulte
Skulte Performance Designs
Z28tt-89 IROC T56 DFI Twin Turbo
http://www.skulte.com

Dellz

i dont get what your saying? if i do decide to put it ontop of my intake i should put a small fan therE? heh what do you think about air comming in to that location is my biggest concern to try it out if that part is No good i wont even try it but if i get sufficent air its worth a shot oh and you think i would be able to get 400 hp out of my 3.1? with a single turbo ? heh realisticly ill see soon enough .

maniacc

dellz,

The vortech aftercooler system use 2 heat exchangers....the aftercooler(where the water passes thru and cools the intake charge) and the small radiator(where the heated water from the aftercooler is cooled)...there is also a little pump in the system to circulate the water.....

these are good systems...and if you can get your hands on some very cold water....the syatem will cool better than a air-to-air intercooler...unless you are driving in the north pole or something....

later

------------------
MÅN¡ÅÇ ©
88 IROC 5.7L,edelbrock TES,random tech cat,borla exhaust,chip,sfc,accel wires,airfoil,k&n's,ETC..
and NOW supercharged!!!
http://maniac.megamania.com

True Power

Maniac is right about the Vortec system with it using two coolers. You can mount the aftercooler anywhere. Lemme find the magazine I have that has an article on this...
ok, it's Super Chevy, Jan. 2001 edition, p. 84. They install a Vortech V9 G-Trim onto a '99 Z. The fact it is a fourthgen in irrelevent. What matters is this: they mount the aftercooler right on top of the intake. This is where the water cools the charged air. This heated water then travels through to a small radiator. They mount this radiator underneath the car. Air then cools the water, and the process is repeated. Vortec reports a 75-80% reduction in discharge temp (with the water at ambient temp). This is @ 9psi. So, their system is pretty efficient, even with the aftercooler on top of the intake. However, since you are doing a turbo, a water:air intercooler would be a lot more expensive (I think). Maybe Vortec could sell you just that section of their system. It all depends on how much power you are aiming for.

[This message has been edited by True Power (edited January 17, 2001).]

Dellz

Truepower: yes but the point it sitting over the intake was to take air in from the ram air hood so the aftercooler sitting there and the radiator sitting under the car wouuld defeat the perpouse this system is seeming a little bulky now aswell? ( thanx for the input )

True Power

That's what I'm saying- you can only really mount a cooler there if it is water:air. If you mount an air:air intercooler, you're gonna have tons of problems:
1. fabricating
2. mounting
3. getting cool air to to ram into it
4. Getting that same air to travel out the back of it (blocked by intake)
5. Plus, ambient underhood heat would probably affect an air:air: as well.
So, for your turbo, you're left with getting a water:air system made for you, or just putting a air:air intercooler up front.
Sorry that this isn't probably what you had wanted to hear.

Dellz

No its fine thoes are the problems i would encounter in the long run its not worth it i wouldent mind the work fabricating stuff but the efficency isent going to be good just trying to come up with new stuff back to the old drawing board thanx .

IROCKZ4me

These are the problems with the factory SVO IC...
It is too small even for the 2.3 l engine. That is the reason for the cheap turbocoupe IC upgrade, toget a little bigger IC that is cheap easy to find and basicaly bolt in. But it still isn't very good. Even this upgrade is not enough for a descent running 2.3l.
On top of that is the problem of heat rising to the top of the engine compartment, especially at stand still and slow speed.
The next problem occurs at high speed. The air intake (hood scoop) isn't in a place of particularly high air pressure. When you get to around 40+MPH the air pressure under the hood nearly equalls the pressure in the hood scoop. Basicly you get little or no airflow across the IC. All of those problems could be worked out but the easiest route is to put a nice large efficient IC in front of the radiator in a high pressure/high air flow area.

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Tracy /AKA IROCKZ4me
'86 IROC-Z Camaro

• 355 cid
• AFR heads
• Arizona Speed & Marine hydraulic roller cam w/ AFR hydra-rev kit
• modified SLP runners
• TRW forged pistons/ceramic coated
• fully balanced
• Edelbrock headers/ceramic coated
• SLP cat-back
• Paxton supercharger
• Nitrous Express nitrous oxide

My IROC-Z
EFI Performance Club on Yahoo
Club IROC-Z

askulte

What I was getting at is that the radiator (air:liquid) can be smaller, since water conducts heat better than air. The loop goes like this:

Blower (Turbo or super) blows hot air
The hot air goes through the chiller and cold air comes out. Cold air enters the engine. The chiller can be mounted anywhere in-line in the intake system (between the blower and throttlebody for us). It has a cold water line inlet and a hot water outlet. The chiller is a water loop... You have cold water entering the chiller (which cools the blower outlet air) and hot water exiting the chiller. The hot water goes through a radiator, which cools it down. This radiator needs ambient air to cool it, just like your engine's radiator.

The aftercooler unit (chiller) is mounted up top in a convenient place, while the radiator can be mounted anywhere. I babble too much.

For intercoolers (either air:air or air:water) you want the shortest length of piping with the least amount of bends. The air:water lets you mount the chiller inline for a very short run of piping, but you have two heat exchangers (chiller and radiator) that are not 100% efficient. Figure they're each 85% efficient, and you get 85% * 85% = 73% efficient intercooler for regular use (you can get over 100% if you use ice water).

An air:air intercooler has just the one heat exchanger, so you gain a decent amount of efficiency there, but placement can be a pain. The core is generally much bigger than the air:water (since liquid conducts heat better than gasses, you can use a smaller size chiller for the same cooling) and must be placed in a location that gets good airflow, such as in front of the radiator (my frontmount), or horizontally with ducting (like ATI's). I don't know what my point was any more Phew!

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Andris Skulte
Skulte Performance Designs
Z28tt-89 IROC T56 DFI Twin Turbo
http://www.skulte.com