VE Learn is holding me up, it isn't the functions fault, its my coolant temps. Even with both fans on, temps reach 220-degrees, and I can't have that. It's only 75 degrees today, I could understand if it were in the 90's. I only set VE Learn between 160-degrees and 200-degrees, as I plan on running no hotter than that. Problem is, as temps increase, the VE Learn pulls fuel due to the less dense air, and it changes what I already had saved, skewing what I smoothed out. A new aluminum radiator is going in next, no doubt about that...

Also, if anyone has a link to that Innovative adapter for the Bosch widebands to position them closer to the turbine without burning them up, please post a link. I just need the adapter, not the whole LC1 wideband kit because I already have a wideband installed, just want it closer...

Thanks guys...

-Rob

 

Scratch that, I could have sworn I set the EBL to max 200 degrees during Learn, after close inspection it was in fact set to 220 degrees. It must have not saved the change. Anyway, I definitely need a better radiator though still, no doubt about that. Okay, back to tuning lol...

 

how far away from turbine exit is it now? u should be able to get it 12-8 inches away without problems

 

Dave, its exactly 12 inches away...

 

This is the adapter that I need, but not the whole kit, second from the right...

 

u can make a heat sink from apiece of copper , or search ebay for o2 extension

 

Dave, can't do the 02 extension because it will lean out the air/fuel, that is why they are so much cheaper in price. The innovative adapter places the orifice right in the stream of the exhaust, while keeping the wideband itself a good distance away. The orifice in the extension is in the 02 bung it screws into, not in the stream. RBob mentioned the copper too. Might have to just suck it up and keep it down by the catalytic converter...

 

Mines been about that far away and i didnt seem to have issues

 

I just spent another $140 on a replacement WB sensor for the autometer gauge, I don't want to keep risking and jeopardizing sensors without that Innovative adapter. It'll just be safer to keep it down near the transmission, just a pita to get to, not to mention kinda hinders my 4" downpipe plans...

 

140 bucks for a sensor man i would sell that whole setup and buy a plx or aem sensors for both are only 50 bucks and both are accurate to .1

 

Question for Bob now (RBob). Now that the VE is essentially learned, and she is idling great and running good throughout part throttle, what is the best way to attack the boost tuning. So far, I simply started with an LT1 SA main table, but made a few changes that my engine seems to like. Did not pull timing in that table to compensate for boost, only in the BST - Spark Retard timing is pulled, and even then I have more to dial in. Most of the VE tables are learned, just needs some smoothing here and there. Fuel pressure was already bumped up a little before I even got started. Since one of my injectors cracked, I installed a set of green stripe injectors, and after relearning the VE my focus has since been on...;

PE - TPS% Enable Threshold
BST - Boost PW Multiplier % (2-Bar)
BST - Boost Spark Retard (2-Bar)

Now though, can you delve into how the ECM uses the PE AFR and VE% at 100kpa in conjunction with the boost multiplier? Where in the XDF is the ECM finding the PE AFR value (not the target, but the actual value, and how it is calculated with the VE value, etc). I have gotten so many PM's asking me how the EBL tunes for boost, and rather than paraphrase your words on my part, I wanted you to underline it for everybody reading along...

 

Haha, Paul was telling me that the replacement WB sensors are the same Bosch widebands found in BMW's that I can pick up at Advanced Auto for like fifty to sixty bucks, just need to repin here and there to fit the autometer connector. If the one that I just picked up bites the dust though, will definitely go the plx route...

 

Speaking of wide bands what do y'all think of Robb's TT-1 setup ?

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

Your local Volkswagen dealer will have it too.

 

.... sheesh, now you tell me lol.

 

> PE - TPS% Enable Threshold

Adjust this table so that the ECM is in PE mode before boost comes in. Can't always nail it dead on, but get it good enough so that the ECM is in PE mode whenever there is boost (except after a lift of course).

> BST - Boost PW Multiplier % (2-Bar)
> BST - Boost Spark Retard (2-Bar)

Once in boost, the ECM will use the 100 KPa column of the SA and VE tables at the current RPM. As the RPM changes the ECM will use that RPM row of the table (IOW, it tracks with the engine RPM).

The Boost Spark Retard is straight forward. Grab the 100 KPa column of the SA table, then subtract out the value from the boost retard table. That will be the SA (ignoring other compensations for this example).

The SA value that the WUD reports is the at-crank timing. If the WUD is showing 20*, a timing light will (should) do the same. If it doesn't then either the initial timing or the latency table values are incorrect.

> BST - Boost PW Multiplier % (2-Bar)

When in boost, the ECM uses the VE value from the 100 KPa column. It calculates the required injector PW based on this, then applies the PW Multiplier to this calculated PW.

The Boost PW Multiplier table can either add or subtract fuel. Using negative values will remove fuel, which is commonly required when running a positive displacement blower.

Running a turbo it is more common to need to add fuel. This is mostly done to run a richer AFR while in boost then the PE commanded AFR. The PE commanded AFR may be 12.8:1, but at 15 psi it is better to run an actual AFR of 11.8:1.

The PW Multiplier table is used for this.

Take a look at the injector PW calculation (simplified):

PW = BPC * MAP * ~T * ~AFR * VE

The BPC is the injector flow rate and engine displacement rolled together. Then there is the MAP value, inverse coolant value, inverse AFR value (commanded), and then the VE value.

It is important to note that the MAP value is used in the PW calculation. Which means that as boost increases so does the injector PW. This is important to understand, as this is why a PW Multiplier table works for boost, and only needs to add a bit of fuel.

What the PW Multiplier table does is to take a percentage of the injector PW, and adds it back in. Say at the current RPM & boost the multiplier value is 14% and the PW was calculated to be 6 msec:

New_PW = 6.84 = (6 * .14) + 6

Clear as mud?

RBob.

 

You da man...

 

Should have went with that from the getgo...

 

Interesting. For some reason i thought you had a 2 bar ve table.

 

No, I originally I started with an LB9 bin with the smog devices deleted, changed the injector constant, SA table, and MAP flag, then let it learn away. I had 60-lb injectors, sold them, went with 28-lb injectors until I got my 42's, sold the 28's, but then one of the 42's had a crack in it and spewed all over the intake from the bottom o-ring, and now I am running a set green stripe 30-lb injectors until I get one of the 42's replaced. Had a 3-Bar with the 60's, but now back down to a 2-Bar because it defeated the purpose of running a 3-Bar with 30's. Had a few PM's about tuning the EBL-P4 w/boost, as well as a few XFI tuners that I hang around with that were curious, and that is why I asked Bob to delve into it...

 

Can't even begin to tell you how much money gets dished around here and there, first on injectors which can add up because I sell them for a lot less than what I paid because I sell them to friends, and now on WB sensors. If you look closely at my last idle video, you'll see that I looped the heater core hose lines, because the damn heater core spewed on my passenger floor. Pulled the carpet, cleaned the whole damn interior, bought a new heater core, but I am way too freaking lazy to put it in. Not to mention, I have to pull the downpipe out again and reweld some areas because I feel exhaust pulses. One thing after another, sigh...

 

Thats a turbo car for you lol been there and still have issues at times

 

Okay, the nose is bolted on with the headlights in place, and they are not coming off anymore. I will find a way to get that grill on there with the nose bolted on, one way or another that will get done. Now, I welded two identical small brackets that you would find on an old LG4 v-belt setup, the thick ones, to the top of the cold air box that I made (one on each side, and they bolt directly to the hood latch platform. They were welded on an angle (outside of the box towards center of the platform), so that when force is applied, the box is forced outward, not inward. I also drilled for a long bolt with spacer for the top center of the cold air box that bolts to the middle of the hood latch platform. It is so damn strong now that I literally stood on it with both feet and applied some down force and it didn't budge, the whole car went down not just the nose! It's super strong. The rest of the day I am spending on the hood, I have a lot of customizing to do, with the fenders as well. No 4" cowl on this bad boy, I am going stealth GT2 look. Your going to enjoy this, trust me. I am also going to attach the exhaust back on, had it off for about a week and I can't stand the noise, way too loud...

 

Didn't have a chance to work on the GTA today, as it's been a very busy week, and now an even busier weekend. The hood is a replacement GTA hood that I will be customizing, as the original hood is in storage. The turbo clears the hood no problem, I just left it open in the pic because I was still adjusting everything to line up evenly when I took it. Not gonna go too crazy with the hood, but a lot of cutting and welding will be involved. Should come out pretty sweet when its done...

 

... yeah, you Supra fans know what I'm gonna do.

 

Mmmmmm, yup. Thats gonna look good
Im doing a half recessed scoop, half below the hood, half above for the TMIC im doing. I think itll work great with the smaller turbo.

 

Thanks Will...

Okay, everything was measured twice, and will obviously be cut once. Will start cutting as soon as I submit this post, so the next time you see the GTA the hood should be just about done, aside from the final paint. Hopefully I'll have it primed by then. The mesh grill inserts will be tricky to install, but I think I have it covered...

 

cant wait to see this finished

 

Just read through the entire thread. Awesome work man. The turbo setup looks fantastic. I'm happy to see someone build a 305 rather than hating on them.

 

I'm trying, believe me, I'm trying to get it done asap. The cuts were made, and even I had to take a step back and say "dayum" because its starting to look really good. Just wait until the hood is painted black, with the black mesh grills under the cuts I made, gonna look awesome. Just got two mods to do to the fenders, then the front is done...

Thank you Matt! I tried to be as practical as I could be, this way those who read along with me, and who get inspired to do the same, can follow the build in a very easy directional manner. I would definitely recommend a smaller camshaft for the 305 though, a 218/218 will do the trick with more boost as opposed to a behemoth cam with less boost, I got carried away with it. Lots more to come, especially when I start the rear side...

 

this car will end up being something i lust after when its done, it may very well become one of my desktop backgrounds

 

Can't upload any datalog and video's because I am not home, but I can access photobook though. I flattened the lower VE the other day, grabbed some pics (below). As you guys who are following along already know, the camshaft I went with is freaking huge for this turbo 305 project. Can't get the IAC steps any lower than high 50's low 60's. I am looking at either going with a bigger throttle body, or drilling holes in the stock throttle body plates. Can't open the throttle speed screw anymore because it slips right out of idle mode. I want the idle flawless, so I will continue to work on getting the IAC steps down towards the mid 20's when I get back, although some racers live with the higher than normal IAC steps, I simply won't accept them...

 

crack the tb open with the screw then readjust the tps so its still within idle range reading wise

got my car off the lift and out of the shop today but check out this post
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...2-post902.html

 

For you Atlantic City fans, I got dealt four aces with a kicker at 5 times multiplier last night, but I was only freaking playing nickels cuz we were just getting started. Had it been quarters I would have won $12,500.00, but I am happy with $2,500.00 lol. Felt like someone was literally sitting on my shoulder, machine was giving me vibes the moment I sat down...

 

Dave, I will try that. I honestly forgot this TPS is adjustable. RBob had also given me two IAC tables that need to be tweaked in Tuner Pro, and he also pointed out to remove the load from the two fans at 180-200 degrees to see where the steps really are...

I'm liking those dirt bikes, any dirt bike tracks over there by you like by e-town...?

 

theres a few tracks but most are closed down , theres just so much wide open area here to ride that there are no need for tracks , we rode for 6 hours straight today

when i get those pics from my friend ill post them so u can see just how my area is just about every town is 30 or 60 miles apart , ive got pics from the top if the one mountian we went over today
, u can see prolly 80 miles away and there is only one tiny town in the picture

 

Happy Memorial Day fella's, I trust your just as full from BBQ and beer as I am, and getting ready for some fireworks lol. Hood is coming along nicely, just contemplating how I am going to secure the mesh grill from underneath. I have a few ideas already. Can't wait to start the rear side though, as the rear deck lid spoiler is going to come out shhh-weet, especially with the 91/92 GTA taillights, should compliment everything very well. I already started removing the nightshade some putz put on them before I nabbed them, lower one in the pic is almost ready, top one needs some more paint thinner. Gonna look like glass when I am done with them, with absolutely no dry spots underneath...

 

I used brake fluid to remove nightshade from a set of tail lights a few months ago. The stuff just melted off and the lights looked brand new.

 

I didn't even think of that. Just worried if the plastic starts to ripple if I use brake fluid, how long did you have it on for? The paint thinner is definitely a slow process though in comparison, for sure...

 

.... always remember, it's just a ride.

 

I think it was about 20-30 min. It didn't seem to effect the plastic at all.

 

Brake boosting this thing is a joke, holding the foot brake I am lucky to see 1-psi before the tires are instantaneously up in smoke. Gonna try easing the throttle into it next time out while foot braking, and maybe get a preliminary launch on video today. Got so used to the EBL-P4 now, it literally took two minutes to put together a whole new boosted tune using the stock LB9 bin as a base. The boost tables are already set up by RBob to work in conjunction with the final VE Learns, so its like having RBob tune the boost for you. Haven't even touched the BST tables, as wideband is showing what I need to see. Had too many hands in the cookie jar though, too many people wanted to play with Tuner Pro V5, so I had to start over as opposed to going in and trying to find out what was played with. Only other thing I was working on besides those 91/92 GTA taillights and the new tune recently was the secondary fan. Second fan suddenly stopped working, or wasn't working and I just didn't notice. Using an unused pin, I ran a new wire with terminal, and spliced to allow full control of the secondary fan in conjunction with the primary fan. Fan still wasn't working, and after some looking into it turned out to the be the relay switch. It clicked when tested, but was pretty much dead. Replaced it, and now the system works flawlessly...

 

Brakes simply won't hold, tires start spinning even without boost at around 1500-RPM, once boost kicks in the tires just light up. This video is very short, but I was power braking it the whole time, which is why it stops short when I let off the throttle. I tried to ease into the throttle very slowly at first, but it doesn't matter, brakes simply won't hold, and that is useless at the track. Gotta fix that issue very soon. The hood is covered because I am finishing it today, getting painted (under the hood and sides of the hood are already coated). Open downpipe again in the video so you can hear it better...

 

Okay, I have Murphster dying to run the turbo GTA in his Chevy C10 Sidestep project sporting a Grand National engine, so this will be the GTA's first run. I wanted to run against his Novi Supercharged LS1 Vette, but he insists that the truck will be a better run somehow. Meh, should make light work of him easily provided I can freaking launch. Almost forgot the check valves folks, be sure to run them in your PCV and brake booster lines, just tossed one in the brake booster today, already had one in the PCV. Anyways, here is his project, which is running and driving as of today's date as per the Murphster...

 

That should be an interesting run to say the least. My brake booster has a check valve, im looking into putting one before the pcv valve but unsure where to look or what to look for cause the pcv line is that hard plastic.

I posted a vid of the startup finally, though even with the copper collector gaskets the drivers side still leaks :/ The flanges arent warped either. Think im just gonna pull it and throw the remflex gaskets on and see what happens.

 

Will, the stock check valves that are on the booster are very weak, and are prone to breaking at 15-psi and up. Trust me, throw another on there for good measure. Gonna check out your video's now...

 

Mine broke with no boost lol ... And my power brakes just quit working ... So I just removed the valve all together and ran it straight to manifold ...no problems yet

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow 175 cc heads, 4.10 gears, lots of suspension upgrades. 24mpg @ 2500rpm hwy. 8.80@ 84mph 1/8th on street tires... 8.000's soon

 

When are you boosting that thing? I have a spare TPI setup, do the port mod to the EBL, throw the TPI on, slap a turbo onto it, and come join the darkside lol. Luke.... it is, your... destiny!!!!

 

Lol I don't have the funds for boost ... And if I do boost it IMA keep the TBI more than likely just throw some 90lb injectors in it currently running 68lb ers at 30 psi FP ... So far ran a best of 8.80 at 84mph in 1/8 on street tires spinning pretty bad ... Had to baby the clutch n only leaving at like 1800rpm ... But it has already ate a few 350cu.in. cars :-) ... Including a coiple third gens, a 80's caprice, and a 70's TA ... The caprice was the best run tho ... They swore up and down "that ain't no 305" lol ... They had gears, cam , headers , single plane with carb etc. Also sounded like they had a little more can than me according to how the idle sounded through a full exhaust system .... It was fairly lopey compared to mine .... He would jump me by about half a car out the whole then I'd catch em on the big end every time ... N win by a car or more ... I've heard he has since went n got slicks n is waiting for my return lol his was an auto trani too .. I bet we ran 10 times that night with the same results EVERY run ... It was a blast for me lol .. They were pissed ...

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow 175 cc heads, 4.10 gears, lots of suspension upgrades. 24mpg @ 2500rpm hwy. 8.80@ 84mph 1/8th on street tires... 8.000's soon

 

I've run 17 psi thru my brake booster and havent noticed any problems. The vacuum factory brake system sucked since day 1 tho, even with c5's. went hydroboost and it is phenominal lol