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It looks like the end link mounting point is in a similar location, although the whole a-arm part of UMI's is lower so it might have more room as the gusset might only come into contact with the middle part of the end-link, as a pose to the actual physically larger bushing part of the end link.. Correct me if I'm wrong though it's hard to tell by looking at the picture here:
kinda hard to compair lockation by the pictures, UMI's are at a bad angle.
FWIW, the end links on my UMI arms are about half way over the tube, if you install the end links with the remaining threaded portion facing down, they will jam against the side of the arm. So in that respect, they are different, but again, without measuring stock arms and the aftermarket arms, you will have a hard time determining whether locations have moved
Pounded on the suspension and brakes all day at the track - four 25 minute sessions (last one probably 35 min).
Boy, those Wilwood 6 piston calipers really grab. I didn't know the car, and had to relearn how to corner with it. Brakes were fantastic. I could outbreak most everyone. The tired L98 on the other hand I don't think anyone at the track had 214k on their motor - and it made it back home . Temperature was never an issue.
Suspension was great as well. I need to trust it and push it some more.
One very nice Vette hit the wall head on (turn 13)- no one injured.
Re: Drove to the Track...And drove back. A Good Day!
Originally Posted by TEDSgrad
Pounded on the suspension and brakes all day at the track - four 25 minute sessions (last one probably 35 min).
Boy, those Wilwood 6 piston calipers really grab. I didn't know the car, and had to relearn how to corner with it. Brakes were fantastic. I could outbreak most everyone. The tired L98 on the other hand I don't think anyone at the track had 214k on their motor - and it made it back home . Temperature was never an issue.
Suspension was great as well. I need to trust it and push it some more.
One very nice Vette hit the wall head on (turn 13)- no one injured.
Here's a pic
I'm glad you had a great time at our rental. Kent your first instructor had good things to say about you.
And I'd say your l98 performed flawlessly considering it not only got you there, but let you pound on it at near constant full throttle for a full hour and a half if you did the combined C+D session at the end as well.
I'll be there again next year. If you can I suggest taking a ride with one our instructors in their rides. Stave, Mitch, Kent, and mike all have tons of seat time in 3rd and 4th gens.
I went for a ride with jeff in the #505 C6Z and we were cooking in the low 2:30s. Topping out about 157mph going into turn 1 with a 30mph headwind. Incredible driver and an incredible car.
Called Racecraft and spoke with Corey.. Very nice and helpful fellow.. We spoke about this issue and I brought up this thread on TGO and at first he was confused but after I guess talking to one of his colleagues at Racecraft he knew what the issue was. When he called me back he said that they knew about the issue and were willing to make the modification themselves to the spindles for an extra fee of 50$. That sounds not bad for a guy like me who does not weld.
So for 50$ extra, you can get these to work properly with tubular a-arms and not have the steering arm come in contact with the a-arm sway bar mount.
Now, just need to decide what springs to use to lower the rear with these front spindles... Cut my MOOG 5665's or go with another rear spring? Hmm.
That's reasonable for both spindles! My experience with them was excellant, also. Very stout pieces.
Purchased an LS2 out of '06 GTO with 36k on it. More work to do!!
I'll post a link to the swap in a week or two.
I'll post a link to sell drivetrain in a week: 1 3/4" SLP dual cat w/AIR tubes all the way to tips (cats are larger Random Technologies); L98 (high miles); bullet proof 700R4 (less than 20k).
Mods are never ending.
Wow, I mean WOW... how did I miss this the first time around? Nice work Brian, you did what a lot of us talked about doing for a while. I could see a few things that I would have done differently, but this might really inspire me to start yet another project that I really shouldn’t…
Lots of questions (I’m guessing that some of these were answered in Dean’s threads, but a lot of the good information there has disappeared):
The swivel cup weight jacks- which ones did you use/where did you get them? What is the significance of the swivel cups, why not use the non-swivel cups?
Why Spohn LCA’s? Aren’t they the ones that locate the front wheels in the wrong place??? I’m still not sure that I buy that tubular LCA’s are really better…
Why coilovers in the rear? Why not just use a set of similar weight jacks and use the stock spring locations? I suppose you can save some weight if you cut all the original spring mounting goodies off the axle…
Are those plates in the tops of the strut towers and the strut mounts the ones that come with Spohn’s coil over kits?
You obviously drive this thing on the street, how is it for a serious street car, any crazy clunks/other noises (not sure how much I care, when I had a 3rd gen daily driver I had stiffer springs then that in it and a bunch of other stuff that is normally considered “race only” OTOH, I just put a stereo with an ipod adapter in what I used to consider the “race car,” yea, there’s something wrong with me…)
I got the weight jack from Speedway. Here's a copy of his post on them. The swivel allows for articulation and larger spring - both BIG positives.
Spohn a-arms, not LCA's - lighter, Delrin (he calls them Delsphere) bushings, AND can be adjusted (do adj is very technical).
Coilovers in rear are also re-inforced with plates up top. Dean recommended them in his thread.
Yes, the plates up front are from the front coil over - my idea to add them. You have to call and ask to order them separate.
Love the ride and so do my friends - and instructor at the track. Haven't had much time to use it as right after that track session, I decided on my current LS2 swap. Should be done in a week or two - I'm hoping: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...-ls2-89-a.html
And yes, I too put a new unit with 2 USB ports and Bluetooth.
PS - with lighter motor, height adjustment is a snap. You can also see good pics of the bolt in the swap thread.
Here's some old text from Dean I had:
Adjustable arms can be used for a few different things. Caution needs to be focused on spring can alignment so as not to make adjustments too far where it causes the spring to rub against the side of the can.
With the above said and respected, you can utlilize the adjustments to lengthen the rear ear leg, and shorten the front ear leg so as to move the lower ball joint forward. What happens to alingment? you gain positive caster. Same goes for slightly moving both longer going lateral and widening the front track- you gain negative camber range. Toe settings have plenty of adjustment to be reset to a wider track keeping most cars at about 3/32" toe in normal settings.
The ball joint placement compared to the strut mount is what determines your alignment range of settings- just like it would static with a upper and lower ball joint car. Dynamic range differs- but thats irrelevant here for any comparison. (static- stagnant ride height, dynamic- range of motion when forces are applied to moving suspension parts in articulation)
1st topic-Non changable built in factory suspesion points and engineered geometry as a result of that.
What does that mean? Just as its stated, we are limited to factory suspension points for the most part unless we do extensive cutting and welding and alterations- we are not going to go very deep into changing factory mounts, just slightly in the rear with the panhard (track bar) as needed.
There are two purchases that are undeniably NEEDED for optimum baseline chassis geometry setups.
1) Racecraft 2" drop spindles
2) Jegs panhard relocator kit (axle side only needed-for the most part The ride height dictates this)
OK, So what dictates the ride height then?
Factory suspension mount points and suspension articulation. We ultimately want the center of gravity of the vehicle to be as low as possible WHILE maintaining the best possible suspension articulation geometry through travel. How much travel do we anticipate?(Here's the $1,000,000 question) it will vary on tire grip, road quality, chassis weight, roll angle, ride ratio (ie unsprung weight- lighter cost BIG $$$$. Things like Aluminum shocks, lightweight CCW racing wheels, custom lightweight machined parts, lightweight large brakes, etc speed is lightness, lightness is money) I will try and use things readily availiable for purchase from vendors. Best bang for the buck. Some are even home made things you can peice together from race car vendor supply shops for cheaper, lighter and stronger than some of the vendors most of you come to know associated with 3rd gens.
To move on with what ride height? I will pick what I want based on 17" x 9" wheels and tires all 245-45-17. My wheel choice would be 3 pc BBS race wheels (Light, strong, and look great on a TTA- oh yeah, that would be my car of choice to build, but we will do this build for an iron SBC TPI 3rd gen since that by far is most common) http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...roduct_picture
That is a standard 25.7" tire height- designed for third gen geometry. RIDE HEIGHT will be based on 3" of travel MAXIMUM. So with Racecraft spindles installed, we want the stagnant chassis height to be "non argueably" set by the front A-arm ear height off the ground to be 1 1/2" higher than the centerline of the balljoint swiivel. This will allow for articlulation 1 1/2" up and down from centerline A-arm length- Spring rate used will ultimately be adjusted so roll in a corner yeilds about 3* and the outside compression travel at that max lateral grip be about 2" without bumpsteer (in other words- on a smooth asphalt surface)
Once you get the tire on the ground and the chassis weight loaded with this A-arm height measurements, the rest of the chassis will followw suit proportionately. This A-arm height dictates ultimate ride height & ultimate articulation when measured against cg leverage laterally. This is so hard to put into words- I hope you all are understanding this. Its not My way- it is a factual BEST way based on the factory pickup points.
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My next purchase is Spohn A-arms part # 734-DS http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...-Del-Sphere-Pi
Why? Delrin bushings, factory type spring perches (I do not like coilovers on a 3rd gen because the strut and spring has to turn with the steering) the Delrin mounts are also adjustable in length to allow for just a slight better length angle on Camber and Caster to the factory upper strut mount adjustment. How much length added? Will be determined by how much you can get away witwithout misaligning the factory spring pocket and still negate any rubbing of the spring. Its the ONLY A-arm made I know of allowing for all these factors.
Then we go to front weight jackers so we can set our spring rates to what we want while maintaining that stagnat ride height mentioned above. Without weight jackers, YOU CAN NOT HAVE OPTIMUM SPRING RATE AND OPTIMUM RIDE HEIGHT GEOMETRY COMBINED!!!
A V8 car Iron SBC car I would install 850 front coils/ progressive 175-225 rear coils
Swaybars 34 and 36 mm fronts 19-21-and 23mm rears to play with in fine tuning.
{IMPORTANT NOTE: I wold not actually be buying a V8 car, nor would I be using some of these parts such as over the counter sway bars- however, for this hypothetical build I am once again stating that I am trying to use over the counter equivilant parts to what I would actually truy and somewhat do. In reality, I would use custom in-cocpit adjustable swaybars from HRPworld. These are VERY costly, AND would still have to be custom fitted to a third gen.}
2" drop spindles allow you to get the cg of the car 2" lower than you could without them while retaining the same A-arm geometry. 2" lower cg leverage on the roll center is major! We can use lower spring rates to control roll rate and thus not loose mechanical grip with softer rates to follow road contours.
Edit with picture also-
The attached picture will show lowering a strut front suspension car with only spring drop. You can see how dramatically the roll center drops. The roll center is the point that the body rolls around that circle. With the 2" drop spindles, the car drops 2" the roll center drops 2" proportionately and the geometry stays factory.
IMPORTANT NOTE: You can see by studying the example that more negative camber on a strut front suspension RAISES the roll center......Things that make you go hmmm.
There is alot of factors in a strut suspension. Next chapter I get into SAI (strut Angle Inclination)
My V6 I ran aprox 825lb front springs and a front roll center that was in the dirt trying to get the cg down without drop spindles AND minimizing suspension travel and camber loss in body roll due to limited poor geometry- they now once again have drop spindles for our cars. I tried years back to get the old Beltech drop spindles but were discontinued by the time I built my Camaro.Rears were progressive 130-210 and cut softer progressive rate to a 'guestimate" 160-225rate. I later futher rasied the rear VIA shaft style progressive bump stups on my Koni's set to actiate in 1 1/4" travel and progress into about 260 by 1bout 1 3/4 travel. I am typing this off of memory, I had the actual specs I set it at somewhere in this forum I believe it could be search under "Koni bumpstops". Anyways, I added extended ball joints up front and altered the front roll center raising the axis more level, plus lowered the rear roll center leveraging the rear more, lowering the CG for and aft, and increasing the rear bar back to the massive 25mm one I had originally bought. I had stepped down to the 23 until I made the changes. After the changes, rear was perfect, front was just a td too high in compression valving with the fixed-valved Koni Yellow's (only rebound adjustable.) I would run the front on full rebound adj and the rears on '2' on range 0-3 clicks. panhard was lowered on the axle side 1 1/4". The nose of this car would take bumps great, AND would not dive more than 1" under extreme hard braking in suspension travel. (personal note- I miss that car.........ok, I'm back from daydreaming) Oh yeah, front bar was a 34mm solid/and as stated, rear bar was a 25MM solid with the axle mounts adjusted 2" narrower than the 23mm bar.
Rear springs I would set on coilovers utilizing an SSS progressive 150/350 rate spring 10" length and cut off one lighter tight wind and one heavier wind making it to an aprox 175/250 and about 8" height (That an off the top of my head guess, I would have to better calculate the actual cuts)
I like progressive rear springs because they reduce rear jacking of the chassis under hard braking. However, They need to build rate quickly to eliminate wheel hop under extreme braking while promoting rear chassis set into a corner earlier than a higher linear rate spring. I would combine this onto a Penske 4-way coilover so I could independently control both lower piston speed compression and rebound as well as higher piston speed compression and rebound to get control of wheel hop at low speeds but keep rates from building too quickly and allow rebound drop at higher levels and eliminate wheel skipping. These rates and shock dampers would be adequate for massive power with the shorter GW trac link setup used to lay down power and get acceleration bit off the corner with its shorter length, YET not being too soft to cause the dreaded short TQarm braking wheelhop experienced with lower rates. i would also (and here is the major key to it working also with progressive rates) is to outfit the front TQarm mount with a Tq Absorber designed for 3rd link rearends that would act as my slider and in essence a decoupler to take away hard brake pedal wheel hop "initial shock" (this is a secret design- sorry, no more to be said on this topic= it is theory I would have to experiment and work the bugs out. A trial and error process to get the outcome I would be searching for). Otherwise, just use a Xmember mounted TQarm and use the shock and spring rates I have already somewhat perfected on my prior setup and adjust from there to get front to rear balance of the chassis. The progressive rate building as the chassis sets wil keep the car;s rear low and tight on initial turning yet allowing rotation as it sets and the rate builds, it then reverses this principle reducing off corner rear rate again tightening the tailend under hard throttle exits. shock valving aids this process to a pefected dynamic balance of entrance and exit states.
If at first it no worky? spring rate changes are cheap at about $65 a coil. Its trail and error till I get the feel I want.
Front struts would be Aluminum double adjustable custom valve Varistruts.
Adjustable Caster bolt kits would be used to mount the struts to the spindles to change SAI angles for a reduction of the positive SAI gain through brake hat mount offset of larger brake package and combined wider wheel centerline. Keeping the SAI closer to the contact patch centerline helps traction and makes an easier handling steering wheel under hard braking (it reduces sawing of the wheel)
Relocation brakets are of course a must on a lowered 3rd gen to correct the paralell LCA angles. Once set to reduce slight roll understeer in chassis corner squat to attain a better front to rear tire contact slip angl simply cut off excess LCARB material not used (that is excess unsprung weight) LCA's And Panhard would be made out of Coleman Racing Aluminim trailing arms material and the ends would be Spohns Delrin bushings at chassis ends and high end Aurora PRM series massive roadends on the articulation ends of the arms (rod ends are lighter weight than the delrin joints, yet the delrin will help reduce chassis vibration on one end.
I am not getting into chassis bracing (this is all about suspension and handling movement parts)
I like the Hotparts Strut mounts, I also like racecrafts desgin. I think I would go to Racecraft just becuase I have a great idea for a chassis brace I am not going to get into any more info about either. Basically, any solid bearing mounts to eliminate the crappy rubber bushing factory strut mounts. (Besides good shocks and tires- This is I feel the 3rd most inportant improvement to any 3rd gen to get more percise steering control and strut effectiveness in dampering slop due to the factory rubber mount. It makes ANY strut work better!)
setting the rear- Now that the front is assembled, I check fender height and set the rear 1" higher than the front fender height for stance- I know this to be my liking based on my prior Camaro rake and figures. (If I had a 3rd gen still I could give all the measurements of heights from ground on a machined flat surface- in other words, a very good concrete floor. Unfortunately, I no longer have my 3rd gen to measure and give you all accurate figures and resulting calculated fender heights) I will guess the front to be in the 25-26" range and the rear to be in the 26-27" range
lets say the front is at 25" with the Aarm bolt at a hypothetical 8" and the balljoint pivot (center ball) is at 6 1/2" (1 1/2" lower than the pivot bolt for great camber gain lateral deflection angle in cornering roll), then dial the rear coilover to where the rear fender lip is one inch higher at 26"
roll centers- {front and rear somewhat imaginary points that the chassis pivot on when you roll into corners} with the above fender heights, you have a low cg (center of gravity) without an extremely low front roll center. Usually otherwse, it would be in the dirt low if not added drop spindles. So, the rear may only need to drop about one inch on the panhard Jeg's adjuster. Test driving will help confirm this once car is assembled through spring choice feel. If the panhard needs to stay up for steady state balance (I work on steady state balance FIRST, then work on coner entry and exit through other adjustments.) but is too loose still on entrance of corner, then I put the panhard down and slightly increase the spring rate, and visa versa.
1) I check Oring movement on shock shafts for travel and roll in corners. I calculate roll angle and contact patch change making sure I have my footprint flat with my camber gain vs roll. I increase or decrease as needed and keep tayloring steady state roll until I get the lateral grip, roll and footprint with combined front and rear balance and a good feel of corner entrance range with roll axis choice. I fine tune with swaybars and shocks. and then I play with shock valving further to get the baby to respond best on both entry first independantly using front compression adn rear rebound, then corner exit using front rebound and rear compression. Yes this makes most peoples head hurt. You either get it or you don't, unfortunately- most don't and need someone that does.
I had mentioned also a little about setting the Rear LCA's somewhat parallel to the ground using LCARB's (relocation brackets) Now when you are playing with spring rates and roll measurements, you can calculate where the inside (meaning left LCA on a left corner) LCA is fully extended laterally in distance from the front chassis mount and the outer LCA is arched upward slgihty shortening its distance from the front chassis mount in full lateral roll of the chassis. This brings the outside of the rear axle forward inducing rear steer of the axle towards the corner..Or what is call "roll induced understeer" This is optimum setting for tire slip angle.
Seems kind of interesting where I and Dean disagree, as well as where you did something different.
The place that i'm not sure about with this whole thing is the lowering spindles- not that I really have a problem with the theory, but in practice they make me nervous, especially WRT to street use. Do they clear stock wheels (both the tie rod ends and the bottom of the ball joint above the line of the rim, so you' don't bottom out if you have a flat?)?
Drop Spindles are great, if you can find them. RC now makes them and they are great pieces. No rim probs at all - "lower your vehicle 2-3 inches depending on your specific application while improving the handling and maintaining a factory ride quality. Spindles maintain critical suspension geometry eliminating excessive ball joint, shock and tire wear common to other methods of lowering." Drop spindles lower a car by moving the actual spindle upward in relation to the rest of the arm, lowering the ride height.
Huh... lowering shouldn't cause any of those problems on a 3rd gen (realize you're quoting generic claims), but still... Like I said, I can see the argument for them geometry wise, but i've never heard of them not putting the ball joint/A arm very close on a 3rd gen, of course you are running stock rims on your formula.
Any idea if they would still be OK with 15" rims (the car I'm considering this for sees more dragstrip use than is really right for something that I want to handle like I would like it to)?
I'm a bit tempted to take the middle ground and run extended ball joints instead of aftermarket spindles on it.
No rubbing at all. Checked the clearance on bump steer kit and ball joints. I'll have room for 17" upgrade, later.
The only rubbing I have is on the plastic liner in the wheel well - very little, but it is marked. I may decide to raise it up another 1/2" to 27" front and 28" rear once my LS swap is finished. I haven't had much time to "play" with it and learn as I've been working on the swap since mid-May. The lighter motor and 1" back should be noticeable!!
Why would you raise it ? I would think 26.5" is a good low height (certainly not too low).. Personally I would modify the fender lining a bit to avoid the rubbing. My car (if i recall correctly) sits at around 27.5" in the front and that is with stock MOOG springs and I want to lower it to about 26.25" with 2" dropped spindles, but adding an aluminum spring spacer to raise it again another 0.75".
I think the 17's put the rim of the wheel close to the steering arm with the drop spindles as people that put on 17's usually go wider than stock.
Yes, 17X9 in the future.
I'm struggling with y-pipe fitment and the trak pak straight crossmember.
Though I have not had any probs so far, I do use my car for cross-country touring. Softer shock position and a little higher ride height is more desirable for me on these long distance tours. I'm trying to make two cars; long distance agility cruiser, and club road racer (twice/year). It could well be that a stiffer shock position would help with that liner rub. I like to keep the wheels rolling and too much kidney pounding stops the wheels and is not comfortable. I drove from Key West to Mpls in 38 hrs elapsed - alone; Mpls to Phoenix in 30 hrs elapsed; I was younger, then.
Again, drove around town 2 days, hit the track - that's it so far - been under the knife since then. Really need to experiment more with all this adjust-ability so that I can find a sweet spot between the two without having to re-align for each style of driving (OR have the alignment shift down to an easy science. Need more experimentation.
Just a thought, you could add maybe a thicker isolator above the spring like from a 4th gen if you needed that extra little bit of height.
He is running weight jacks in the front and coil overs in the rear , forget did we? lol. He did the weight jacks the "right" way too, by welding them in the upper perch and the bolt comes out the top of the frame rail
He is running weight jacks in the front and coil overs in the rear , forget did we? lol. He did the weight jacks the "right" way too, by welding them in the upper perch and the bolt comes out the top of the frame rail
YES, open hood, turn bolt, close hood. Done!
The spanner wrenches on the rears take more time!
Complete adjustability means more experimentation to get it right. Different firmness and different ride height in minutes - worth all the work!! The bridge bolt on the 6-piston Wilwood's are easy pad change, too!
I truly can change handling characteristics in minutes - and like it
I was at Road America on Sunday for the Indy car race - always a ton of fun. It got me motivated to change my front springs.
After adding the 1/2" extended BJ's, I knew I needed a taller spring. I had debated the idea even before that.
I replaced the 9.5" Eibach 850# with 11" Hypercoil 900#. They only offered in 100# increments, so I had to up the spring rate slightly. I ordered them from Summit and they had "blue powdercoat" listed in their description. I was happy because my RideTech rear coil overs have blue Hypercoils. Well, they arrived in black. Disappointed, but I'll live.
MUCH better spring than Eibach! Even though the Hypercoils were 1.5" taller, they weighed 7.4# compared to 8.4# to the smaller Eibach's.
In light of Brian's Indy car post, I'll share something I've been up to in recent months.
I am building a 'spare no expense" F1 Ferrari Race Kart custom build. Every fastner you see is mainly Titanium with a few Aluminym flage nuts in non critical area's. All titanium bumper tubes, Carbon fiber floor tray and torsion bars, Magnesium wheels...best of everything I can find or make myself. It is a 1999 Kosmic Kart (Japanese version of TonyKart) which is a heavy duty 30mm/32mm frame for my 240lb/6'4" size. I have custom altered the frame quite a bit- stripped the powder coating'welded additions and changes/ and then custom painted it myself. I have incorporated a dirt kart weight jacker on the left rear for chassis balance, and it will sport a Rotax MaxEvo DD2 motor which is chainless direct drive axle and 2 speed paddle shifter gear box (low and high gear). The icing on the cake is the real carbon fiber F1 steering wheel I am also finished with which incorporated about 75% functioning buttons and leds to work my bluetooth comm gear (PTT- push to talk wireless) and a rear view camera screen to see whats behind me just for kicks of functional gismo's including warning lights (battery and water temp) as well as gear selector lights. Those grips are real Alcantara leather- Steering wheel plate custom made for me in Italy. Lastly, the seat which is being custom made now for the last 2.5 months (should get it very soon) is ordered through Steve Tillett of Tillett Race seats. Steve was good frined with Shuey (Michael Schumacher F1 Ferrari driver) and made Michael a custon Ferrari TIllett seat years ago with a custom embroidered Ferrari logo...Steve extended the offer to make me a duplicate of this for my Kart but out of newer Carbon Kevlar material...only two int he world will exist, Schumacher and myself. How cool is that? I'm very gracious at his offer. It will be another several months before I have this build complete- been working on it a little more than 6 months now.
04-25-2011, 11:37 AM
I don't think anyone at the track had 214k on their motor - and it made it back home 
. Temperature was never an issue.
and is not comfortable. I drove from Key West to Mpls in 38 hrs elapsed - alone; Mpls to Phoenix in 30 hrs elapsed; I was younger, then
.
How cool is that? I'm very gracious at his offer. It will be another several months before I have this build complete- been working on it a little more than 6 months now.
