ScarabChris

Is it worth it for a weekend driver? Not going to race or drive this car hard. I may stomp the gas every once in a while for fun but that's about it.

So other than the cool look of the strut tower brace.....any benefit of it and a wonder bar on a 1987 GTA that is driven easy under normal conditions?

RunawayRadio

iTrader: (2)

The steering box is a weak component on this car, so the wonderbar is definitely a good investment to strengthen that up somewhat. As for the strut tower brace, they really don't stiffen the chassis much (order of 3-5% as i recall) compared to other mods like a set of subframe connectors, so if you want the cool factor, that's about it.

For the same price or a couple $ more, I would really recommend subframe connectors above a strut tower brace. The difference on even a stock car is immediately noticeable, moreso if you stomp the gas from time to time.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

The STB won't have much of an effect unless used in conjunction with after market strut mounts (which eliminates the rubber). The wonder bar is recommended for all f-bodies.

An after thought: If you own a coupe, check for cracks above and at the rear of your windows. Flexing will have caused a small crack there. Subframe connectors? You bet.

JamesC

ScarabChris

Thanks for the info. And yes there is a really small crack at the rear corner of the passenger window. It looks more like a chip in the paint but I know what it really is. It's about 1/16 to 1/8 inch in length.

On the wonder bar....I saw some posts where they have issues with dual electric fans. Is there a specific one I should get to avoid this? It's an 87 GTA, 5.7 TPI automatic.

ScarabChris

And on the sub frame connectors.....is this a bolt on item or will drilling be needed?

wilmil

The best ones are welded.

ScarabChris

I'm sure I don't need the "best" ones as I am not going to run this car hard. I would prefer a bolt on item so I can do it myself, something to prevent further flexing and tearing of the roof.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

They really need to be welded in. If not, over time, the holes used to bolt them in will most likely egg out and get loose, and the connectors will loose their effectiveness.

I always put a steering brace on my cars, they are cheap and good insurance. I also run really large front tires, so yeah.....

Don't worry so much about the stb, spend the money on new strut mounts with spherical bearings instead of the factory rubber ones that deflect.

Really good shocks and struts should be on top of your list as they will make some of the largest improvements. If you can afford it, koni sports, yellow, are the way to go. Probably still the best bang for the buck shock you can find.

John91TA

I bought my 'wonder bar' from lon at topdownsolutions about 8 years ago, no issues with the stock dual fans on my car. Honestly I can't think of how there could even be an issue there? If the bar gets in the way of the fans then so would the front sway bar I would think.


Edit:
I got curious and went at looked at my car, it's been 8 years since I've put it on and haven't really paid much attention to it. I can see where an issue might come from with the lower fan mounts but I have about an inch and a half to two inches clearance to the wonder bar. Aftermarket fans or not OEM might be larger at the mounts perhaps or a front end collision and a bad repair job possibly.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

It seems to be the Spohn wonderbar that has the issue. If you buy the "factory" one from Lon at TDS, you shouldn't have any issues.

ScarabChris

Yeah I can tell the car is ready for shocks and struts, especially in the back. Can you post a link to the ones I should get? Affording the best....I'm not going to scrimp on parts like that. Let me know what the best I can get is.

ScarabChris

Yeah I saw a post here where someone put in a wonder bar and it was pressing up on the lower fan mounts enough that the fans were rubbing the radiator destroying it and leaking out all the coolant.

ScarabChris

Thanks I'll check that unit out.

ScarabChris

Thanks for all the help and info guys. I am not a newbie to these cars but it has been 23 years since I had my last 3rd gen and back then I didn't have internet and even if I did the information would have been extremely limited.

I'm also very mechanical and have a lot of tools so I can do almost any project myself with exception of rebuilding a transmission or welding something. I really wish I learned how to weld when I was younger. I may take a class and buy some welding equipment.

naf

iTrader: (7)

global west wonder bar cleared my dual fans.

Jegster SFC's can be bolted in and welded later if needed. if they are even still available. good clamp area up front where they bolt thru the floor. they do not seem to provide the same support as the beefier GW weld in SFCs on my Camaro but they did make a diff.

ScarabChris

Understood. Maybe I can get the guys that did my exhaust system to weld them in for me. They have the right lift, one you drive on so the car is in the air but on it's wheels so the suspension is loaded.

I'll take a ride over there next week and ask, they may not want to weld parts they don't sell to people's cars. But I'll ask, the dude was actually pretty cool and was super nice when he did my exhaust system. If he says yes I'll order a good set of weld in units.

Beater79TA

I'll put in a second vote for the Topdownsolutions Wonderbar. For ease of installation it's hard to beat this one. It uses 6 bolts to hold it in place including one on each end the factory bar doesn't use. Those extra bolts allow you to put it in place separate from the sway bar so you aren't trying to hold both in place while putting bolts in.

Definitely use weld in SFCs. You've got your pick of multiple companies that all install about the same way on the perimeter of the bottom of the car. All need to be welded in. I prefer UMI but there are other options. DSE makes a nice set but their's requires cutting through the floor as part of the install where the other major options don't.

Beater79TA

Best is a tricky term. It is somewhat dependent on the type of ride quality you want, how you intend to drive the car, do you need/want adjustable units, and always budget. A set of Bilsteins goes for around $700 and is what the factory used on the IROC cars and is non adjustable. Konis are a bit more but are adjustable. You can get Monroe factory replacements at local parts stores for close to factory ride quality. Or if you want to be competitive there are options from UMI and DSE for adjustable race tuned units that will set you back $3000 - $5000 for the set of 4. And if you're doing shocks and struts, are you also planning on doing springs? Lots of options there as well.

ScarabChris

Yeah no doubt the term "best" is subjective. But right away I can tell you I don't want to spend $3000-$5000 on shock and struts....dayum!

This is a weekend-fun driver. Not going to race or run it hard on winding roads, nothing like that here in Ft Lauderdale anyway.

The car is a 1987 GTA so by default it has the WS6 suspension package. I would like to have a factory quality ride. These cars are stiff to begin with so the factory ride is fine with me. The car still feels very tight and handles great. But I can tell when I hit some dips that the rear shocks are nearing their end.

I have no plans on changing springs unless it's to replace damaged or noticeably worn ones.

ScarabChris

The car has a great stance. Very little if any rear end sagging.

vinny R

Another vote for TDS, great product great guy Lon. I used a UMI STB and it did make a difference. I got a scratch and dent sale so for $100 it was worth it. I had my SFC's welded at a muffler shop also. My guy had no problem with me bringing him the parts, he still made his buck on labor.


I will say that weekend warrior or DD when all three of these mods get done you will feel a drastic improvement in the overall ride quality. Couple that with new shocks and struts and it will drive like a car with about 10K on it.

ScarabChris

This any good? Says it's a factory wander bar from a 1989 IROC.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/82-92-Camaro...NZT~tH&vxp=mtr

battmann

iTrader: (9)

I wouldn't recommend buying anything from Spohn. I haven't had any luck with their products.

naf

iTrader: (7)

the factory WB is more than adequate for most applications.

if the shop has never welded in SFCs before, ensure the carpet is pulled back inside where the welds will be. it has been known to catch fire during installation.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Wow! As I recall, the factory bar cost $34 new. Personally, as the factory version is stamped steel, I'd buy after market. But that's just me.

JamesC

Ghettobird52

The 17" rims fill the wheel well much better, on 245/50/16 the gap looks much larger

ScarabChris

Interesting. I'm not one to quivel on a part like this whether it's $50 or $100. I guess I just didn't know what these are worth. My concern really is fitment. I don't want to run into any issues with the fans.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

The TDS one fits with the fans, it is modeled after the stock piece. I believe almost ALL the other versions EXCEPT the Spohn one fit with the fans. The Spohn can be made to work with the fans, but it is just a little more work is all.


http://www.top-downsolutions.com/cha...or-firebird-(a

Call Lon and ask him, he is straight up about his stuff. He sold me on the headlight repair to fix my running light popping up the headlights, and it fixed it even though I was skeptical.

ScarabChris

SOLD!

Thanks!!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

$56 shipped isn't bad. It's less than most used wonderbars on Ebay. The seller is also a moderator here on the forum. Considering Ebay and Paypal take %10 of the total, then you've got postage, blah blah blah... Seems cheap to me for an easy mod that you can instantly feel the improvement. The wonderbar is one of those things all these cars should have had stock.

paul_huryk

Myabe less tire and more wheel is an optical illusion - but a 245-50-16 tire and a 275-40-17 one have the same overall diameter.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I put a factory Wonderbar on my '83 and felt the improvement in steering immediately.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Many aftermarket parts have benefits that go beyond the performance category. Subframe connectors for example, These will help prevent the body twisting which over time can cause cracks and cause the doors to not align properly. The Wonderbar which can prevent cracks from forming in the vicinity of the steering box. Transmission crossmember mounted torque arms can keep the tailshafts from cracking. Rear lower control arm relocation brackets (LCARB) prevent violent wheel hop when stomping the gas from a start.

The biggest eye opener for me was the first time I took a Camaro down to the basics and found out how flimsy they are. Without the K member, front bumper or sway bar the front end of these cars is extremely flexible. Same goes for when you remove the doors (or just have them open), the entire middle of the car can twist or flex far too easily. The more points you brace together and strengthen the better. I wouldn't be surprised if newer front wheel drive cars have a stronger platform than our F-bodies.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

If the steering box area isn't cracked or somehow damaged or weakened, why would one feel an instant improvement? I suggest that in a blind test (on a car without damage), most drivers wouldn't know the difference. That said, I recommend the piece as a preventive, but if your vehicle is in good shape, don't expect too much.

EDIT: The following link discussing the Wonderbar may be of interest:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...questions.html

JamesC

chazman

iTrader: (4)

People have said that to me before. I didn't see any cracks in the steering box area but the car did have about 100k miles when I added it. Perhaps the area had weakened and started to flex. All I can say is the steering stiffness improved immediately in my particular case.

vinny R

Me too. I felt the improvement from the wonderbar. It seemed to make the steering respond quicker. For the cost of this I think it is a must and you WILL feel a difference.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Because I don't want my car to crack , and because I have seen Lon in action helping countless numbers of our fellow TGO members , I took you all's advice and just ordered a wonderbar in black with 2 day delivery . My car is BONE stock , not even yet 100K miles , and I will update this thread with a report on any increased feel of stiffness or solidness WRT how it handles corners after I install it ....

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

I have so many parts left over..test fit and test fit.. go by looks and feel..they don't even go on the car..just sitting on the shelf.. LCAs.. pan rod bars.. wounder bars/k members..
ya get to know whats made. that's better looking then others. Or not so heavy.when ya have 2 or3 diff makers in hand...

sphon ..not so much.the only thing of Theirs I have left is A arms..had all of Their front end parts..every thing..all 3 makes of Their A arms.. got rid of 2 sets... K Member..got rid of it.. Coil overs ..Got rid of them...when it came to Wounder bars .I.had a stock GM unit Redone in red..I picked up a UMI...nice unit..hear about TDS.. took a look..and had them send one out..it is 1 1/2 LBS lighter..and looks good..also fitting dual Fans... so with that..ya get left over parts....

side note: Founders Paints their parts..not powder coated...(worked out better for chrome plating)

edit to: add I have other parts from founder that are powder coated.. the parts I got the is last time did not have decalse on them ether....?

ScarabChris

All great information.

In terms of a hunk of metal I'm sure the $56 used unit on flea bay is perfectly fine but hell why wouldn't I go for the brand new TDS unit in red for the same price? They claim it to be a little more beefy by .7 pounds. That probably doesn't matter much in terms of the effectiveness. But new for the same prices as used seems to be a no brainer.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

I once purchased a junkyard OE Wonderbar for $10. The stamped piece was bowed at bit (front end collision?). To straighten it, I simply put it between two blocks of wood and stepped on it. I don't think that fix would be do-able with an after market version. In the end, remember that the Wonderbar was designed as a Band-Aid, not a performance piece.

JamesC

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I thought the Transmission mounted TA can CAUSE the tail housing to crack?

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Forgot to add in the word crossmember. It's edited now.

FoundersPerf

Our parts are powder coated not painted. Keep in mind if you chrome plate anything that has a weld in it you will to have them bake the parts so you don't get hydrogen embrittlement.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Post update ;

I ordered the wonderbar from Top Down Solutions on Sun. night and Lon got it in the mail promptly on Mon. . Two days later , on Wed. i had my bar in my hands . This piece looks great , quality welds , the paint is top notch , and the packaging got it here unblemished . Over the upcoming weekend I intend to install it and I will further update my post with pictures when it's in .

Ps , sorry for the kinda fuzzy picture , I'll try to get clearer shots when it's installed ...

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I would do the Wonder Bar and be done with it. All you're really doing is just cruise the car now and then. Don't need a bunch of enhancements to do that.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

your finnish.wiped off... also no decals on parts..(just the red finish/in a rush?)
parts went in oven within 1 hr of the last plate...I have other parts from Founders..and they are powder coated...with decals on them...was thinking you started painting them..as this last set of parts was so easy to strip..

ScarabChris

I ordered the TDS unit. I tried to buy it directly from their website but something is wrong with their website and I lost my patience. I would put the wonder bar and another small item in my shopping cart. It showed in my cart but the moment I click "check out" the wonder bar would be deleted from the order. Extremely irritating!

So I got on flea bay and ordered through Hawks. Literally 5 seconds to complete the order.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Hi Chris , Your experience with the "disappearing" item in the shopping cart makes me wonder if the item was out of stock at the moment you tried to order . I've had the same experience with a different vendor (for a totally different hobby altogether) and when I called them I was told that if something shows out of stock it won't let the shopping cart charge for an item that isn't available right then . Maybe that could be a possible reason but at the end of the day you got a bar , and Hawks is also a great place to do business with . ALL the TGO site supporter vendors are great , TDS , Hawks , SouthBay , and any others I forgot to mention are well worth doing business with . These folks not only do our thirdgens a great service by making parts available , they "keep the lights on" here with their site supporter status .

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Post update #2 ;

It took me literally all of 15 minutes to install the wonder bar and it fit perfectly . To be honest , by biggest fear with something like this is ;

Yes I do trust the parts I buy to be made to the correct dimensions and if it didn't fit right it would likely have meant the car was bent somehow in a previous owner's light front end hit for example , and the new component bolting right up is my validation of the car's front end being straight on at least that level . (hey , a LOT can happen in the 30 year lifespan of these cars before we get our hands on them)

So there we have it , one very easily installed upgrade . I will , over the next few drives , be trying to feel if I notice any increase in the feel of "solidness" or somehow better ("tighter") holding in corners , and will again update this post . But , even if I feel no perceptible difference in the handling I will still be happy I did it , my biggest issue being I wanted the stiffness so that hopefully my frame won't crack in the steering box area . (I did do an examination of the area where these are known to crack and thankfully there is no cracking/defects present at this time)

PS , I only got one good picture of the 5 or 6 I tried to take , cell phone cameras really aren't the greatest and my garage is dark as Hell .....

ScarabChris

Completely possible. But if the website software can automatically delete an item from your order when you try to pay then it should also be able to give you some kind of notice. If the item is out of stock there should be a notice on the item page that says "currently out of stock".

How irritating, I was trying to order two things. The main reason I went to the site was to order the wonder bar. I also ordered that little sanity tool you put in the door jam to press the buzzer in so you can have the door open and ignition on without the annoying sound.

I like that little tool but I went there for the wonder bar. It's like if I go to the store for a case of beer and on the way to the register I grab a Twix bar from that little rack in the check out line, then when I go to check out the cashier takes the beer away with no explanation and tries to sell me just the Twix bar. I'm not going to leave with just the Twix bar and be cool with it.