Tas

lets put our $.02 and see if this will work.
.060 over 305 = 315(to raise the compression to be good for the 64cc heads)
lightweight 350 crank = $1000
hydra rev kit
LT4 or ZZ4 cam
forged rods. 6.0" if possible

Fast burn heads
elecric water pump
no air
redline at 7500
Edelbrock Victor inake
670 TBI or single plane multi port EFI

not bad get some forged pistons and NOS you're low 11s for sure

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6
[soon to be Torch Red with black hood and headlights =) ]

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

Super GRK_Taz World
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz
ICQ 82881207

[This message has been edited by Tas (edited February 05, 2001).]

91Bird305

Maybe it will get into 12's and maybe it won't. No one will know until someone does it. Can someone find a 305 (Not 310 or 315) that is running 12's on the block for me and everyone else? Cause so far, I found a 305 TPI running 12.04 in the 1/4 mile but he did all that onefine8t9 said and plus a supercharger PLUS a 50 shot of NOS. Seems like a lot money and time invested in block modifications and 2 power adders to run low 12's. Is there any 305 TBI's that anyone can find that run low 12's off the block w/o a power adder?

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited February 05, 2001).]

ONEFINE8T9

well i cant say that i know of a 305 TBI running 12s n/a. The only person i know of who acctually has a plan of action to get his n/a 305 into 12s in NJSPEEDER. I feel if u want a 305 to be in 12s ur better off with a power adder. I mean no **** that a 350 will have more potential. Its got 45 more cubes.....BUT there is a replacement for displacement. Remember drive train plays a huge part in this too. A stock 305 TBI auto came with 2.73 gears. Change them out to a 3.73/4.10 with a stall converter and u took almost a full second off that cars 1/4 mile time. So now the car runs a low 15/ high 14. Heads cam and intake is good for atleast a second. so now the car is running low 14s/high 13s. Add a set of slp stainless steel headers and a good cat back there is easily a .5 in the 1/4. Now she is running mid to low 13s, with out touching the internals. Have it bored maybe like a .40 with a good set of rings. If u reallywant a 12 second car get a 335 stroker kit. Theres a formula for 12s. Now u can add a supercharger and a mild shot of now and we can se what she would run in the 1/4.

------------------
1989 pontiac firebird
bright red exterior(just repainted)
grey interior
5 spd
305 TBI (stock)
WS.6 formula wheels
3.73 posi rear end
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/Mikey89.html
-------------------------
1985 trans am
factory bright yellow
4 wheel disks
16 inch wheels
305 TPI
power antenna and mirrors
t tops

ONEFINE8T9

i meant mild shot of NOS

Tas

A. Car Craft did it in a stock shortblock(except a cam change) shootout between a mustang and Camaro. Camaro won but threw a rod. They had a Victor Jr. on it with a crazy solid lifter cam and reved the snot out of it.

B. Don't be nit-picky if somone rebuilds thier block. Whoever does this would probably have to have a 310 or 315 unless they find a new block somwhere which will get harder and harder since they stoped putting them in trucks.

NJ SPEEDER

there are a few examples of 305's in the 12's here among us. they hang on the autocross and dragracing board though. at present i think they are all running with a power adder of some sort.
there have been several talks about doing this in an n/a car. all seem to agree that it is difficult but theory would say it is possible.
onefine8t9 has made the exact point that i belive is the key to any fast car, the drive train. a car is more than a motor and a set of tires, all that stuff in between is what makes a car quick, the motor just makes it fast. it also doesn't take as much hp at the wheels as most people think to get into the 12's. with a 3100lbs car it would only take about 280hp at the wheels to go a 12.9@105mph. of course that is only in theory and no theory is worth d*** until it is tested, lucky for you guys i am here to be the dumbass who tries.

lata
tim

------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.301 @ 94.39mph

Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder

My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299

DSI Racing Home Page

www.geocities.com/foff667

JPrevost

My friends 69 is 3200, has a 327, making about 370hp with dart heads and 600cfm double pump. He ran a 13.1 with 3.73 posi slicks but at 107mph. It's a 3 350 trans. We figure he'll be in the high 12s on a cool day. 80% drive trans loss = 300hp at rear wheels. So yes it only takes 300hp at rear wheels but that's still over 360hp at crank and that is pretty hard to do with a street car.

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list), getting new engine in summer

NJ SPEEDER

something is up with his combo. i have seen cars that barely go 104 break into the 12's before, most cars can do it in the 105-106 range. with a 107 trap speed, if he is dead hooing out of the hole, i would prolly try to raise the air in the rears and try a little bigger burn out. also put a little more air of the front's if ya can and shallow stage. i think the staging by itself could be enough to do it.
hope this helps ya get it.

lata
tim

------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.301 @ 94.39mph

Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder

My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299

DSI Racing Home Page

www.geocities.com/foff667

91Bird305

Well it looks like NJ then is our only hope so far. Good luck NJ.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

NJ SPEEDER

thanks,(very patriotic sounding) i will endeaver to make you all proud. i shall strivce for greatness, and not accept failure. i shall press on in 95 degree weather and bask in the glory of the 60degree september air.
i will strive and survive, and one day succeed.

and now back to your irregularly scheduled programming.

lata
tim

------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.301 @ 94.39mph

Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder

My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299

DSI Racing Home Page

www.geocities.com/foff667

Guest

Redline is kinda high...

Dont overbore it to .060. Overbore only if necessary, and as little as possible. A .060 over 305 is a cooling problem waiting to happen. Thinwall castings... God I love GM.

85ws6TA

were all forgetting one of the bigges factors. and i know all too much about it. altitutde. where i live the track is about 5300 ft about sea level. a car doing 16s here would probably do 13s in cali, or florida.

------------------
1985 WS6 Trans AM
T-tops
bone stock sloth of an engine LG4
T-5 tranny. thank god, i couldnt stand an LG4 auto.
Plans for an LT-1 or LT-4,
dual flowmaster exaust,
& a pounding stereo.
mods right now include a radar detector.

Tas

if you live up there go buy a charger. That will pretty much nix any altitude problem. Unless you like getting waxed by Eclipses

-Tas

[This message has been edited by Tas (edited February 11, 2001).]

snflupigus

i thought bandimere sold out and is becoming a shopping mall soon?

Dan W

I talked to the local speed shop guy last summer and if I remember right, he said bandimere was going to be in business another season before moving to another location.

racer J

Hey Tas can you tell me when Car Craft did that 305 article please?

------------------
1988 Camaro
305 bored .030 over
Stock TBI
Aluminum radiator
No smog pump
gutted factor cleaner
cam ground to crane specs
timing advanced 9 degrees
no thermostat
other than that its bone stock and ran a 16.4 @ 82 mph with earth shattering wheel hop and a 2.88 60 ft time. (this was with the rebuild and cam only)

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

waste of time guys.. if you are doing it to be different thats a waste of time too. If you do actually run 12s with a 305 no one will believe its a 305 anyways might as well start off with a 350 and just tell people its a 305
I got my motor essentially for free theres no way in hell id build up a 305 unless it was free, the bore is too small which in turn obstructs airflow since you cant go any bigger than 1.94 for the intake valve and even then past .460 or so the valve is just shrouded by the bore. Thats why 327s haul so much *** with only a small increase in displacement.. itsnot the displacement, its the fact that it has a bigger bore (same as 350)

Blown 305 TBI

Hey Pablo, I'm not trying to argue with you but most of the people on here with a 305 DID get them for "free", technically...they were included with the car they bought.
We all know that a 350 has much more potential than any 305 ever will, but hey since it was "free" build what you have, then when (if) it dies that's when you move up to the 350 IMO.

BTW, I decided not to sell my car, partially thanks to NJ SPEEDER. I figure if I do heads (1.6 rockers), mild blower cam, intake, 2500 stall, and a shift kit, that should open everything up enough to get me well into the 12's, and possibly a lucky 11.9 run. We'll see.

Mike

--------------
Car:
92 Formula
Stock 305 TBI and 700R4 trans
Mods:
7psi Paxton
Edelbrock Coated headers, high flow cat, Flowmaster catback
SLP takeoff posi, GM 3.42's
Nitto Drag Radials (245/50/16) on ARE road racing rims (18lbs lighter each)

Best 1/4 mile - 14.421 @95.96 w/a 1.983 60'

NJ SPEEDER

going 12's on a 305 is perfectly doable. i plan to do it, if people don't wanna belive it's a 305, that would be their problem. i already have people telling me i must be lying when i say i still have the stock cam in it. i think that is just their problem, then again it's usually some one i just
beat

lata
tim

------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.215@94.30 w/ 1.917 60'

Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder

My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299

DSI Racing Home Page

www.geocities.com/foff667

NJ SPEEDER

blown305, i never knew i said anything that profound, thanks

lata
tim

------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.215@94.30 w/ 1.917 60'

Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder

My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299

DSI Racing Home Page

www.geocities.com/foff667

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I agree with you blown, which is why i built my 305 up.. it was free, and i wasnt looking for huge numbers
12s is pretty fast in my book, and if you are looking for 12s off the bat it just makes alot more sense to go with the 350. Im not saying it cant be done with a 305.. just alot more work, and for what? if the satisfaction is to be different, that wil lbe shattered by the fact that no one willbelieve you

most people think 305s are the ****tiest motors on the planet...

NJ SPEEDER

i can't say that i really care if people believe it's a 305 or not. as far as effort is concerned, if i build a 350 i would be buying heads, cam, intake, custom chip, and modifying the TB in much the same fashion. the cam would be different but thats about it. if all you are interested in is an easy way to go fast, buy a crate motor and save yourself all the effort all together.
i don't pin my efforts on what other people would think, if i did i would be working on the either a big block or one of the 350's or 400's in my friends garage. the car would also be mostly fiberglass and lexan too.
if you like your motor or if you are just like me and want to try something different do it.
i am trying not to turn this into a flame or anything, it's just that i get tired of going down the whole,"just build a 350" road everyday.

lata
tim

------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.215@94.30 w/ 1.917 60'

Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder

My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299

DSI Racing Home Page

www.geocities.com/foff667

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

the thing is, while a 305 that runs 12s is different i personally wouldnt find having one all that satisfying because its been done, i know it can be done, and i allready know what id probably need to do it.. granted not everyone thinks its possible.. mostly the doofs you meet at the street races, which is to me probably the only reason to do it, unfortunately all small blocks look the same

i also think you just reach a point of diminishing returns when it comes to putting money into a 305.. im just thinking from a logical standpoint here.
Its not that i dont see merit in building one up, heck i built one up, and its pretty quick, and I plan on bolting some better heads on it to be even quicker.. but i dont plan on doing more than that, anytime you get down into the bottom end of the motor which is what youd have to do to a 305 to run 12s youre just gonna get into deminishing returns with it (the 305)

just my opinion

snflupigus

ahhhhh, diminishing returns. I wonder what the marginal hp value is where it goes from still ok, to too much money.

ok, freaky, calculus tech talk. I like it pablo. anyway, this is the best argument conceivable, the logical and i might add valid one.

there is a diminishing return on everything, and on a 305, its just has lower final numbers.

When you do a cost benifit analysis, it also has less cost, but as usual, less benifit. So that would explain why pablo built up his 305, (and anybody else too).

The costs are low, the gains in hp are "good enough" at this time in your life , and you also get a nice gain in personal experience that others can gain from too.

Enjoy your 305's while you still can, someday, they wont be good enough for you. Right now, mine is, but slowly, but surely, i am wanting more than it could provide.

If you have time also. Try grabbing a little sheet of graph paper, plot out some hp/tq figures that are associated with big blocks, small block 400,383,350,327,305. and their costs. As you will see a triangulation start to occur. your highest profit (hp and torque vs. size vs. cost) will be in a 350.

Keith5

Actually that's economics.

Hey I think building up a 305 is fine, if that's what you want to do. I want to do a lot of buildups.

134(2.2 4 banger)
3.4(60 degree v6)
302
305(302 bored over)
305(regualar old 3.48 stroke)
327
350
383
400+

396
454
502

I might as well start with the 305, but might go with a 327 or 350 first. Might not do any buildups, I changed my mind all the time.

[This message has been edited by Keith5 (edited February 20, 2001).]

snflupigus

Well, actually, you use calculus in econ. Principals in econ are mostly the same, but the mechanics of the methods are calculus.

Keith5

Yeah, but I was talking about the terminology. There was some Accounting in there too.

[This message has been edited by Keith5 (edited February 20, 2001).]