DETROIT (Dow Jones)--General Motors Corp.'s (GM) decision to discontinue its Chevrolet Camaro and Pontiac Firebird models was sorely needed, given the demise of the sports-car segment in recent years, experts say.
"They were cars planned by 60-year-olds for 20-year-olds, and 20-year-olds can't even insure them," said Jim Hall, an auto analyst with AutoPacific Inc. in Southfield, Mich. "If you look at the level of sales, GM was probably losing money just due to marketing costs."
After years of speculation that it would eventually do so, GM said Tuesday that it won't make Camaros and Firebirds after the 2002 model year. The auto maker will close its Ste. Therese assembly plant outside Montreal, where the two cars are made, next September. Employees at the Ste. Therese plant who are laid off due to the closure will receive a benefit package including income for three years, GM said.
The company blamed the decision on lower demand for sports cars (down 53% from 1990 to 2000), in part due to increased demand for trucks, and on excess manufacturing capacity.
GM said that the plant closure will result in a charge to third-quarter earnings of $300 million before taxes. The charge will lower the company's bottom line by $195 million, or about 35 cents a share, GM said.
Analysts surveyed by Thomson Financial/First Call on average expect GM to earn 81 cents a share in the third quarter.
Analysts say the increasing popularity of sport-utility vehicles and trucks caused demand for sports cars in recent years to dwindle. While sports cars offer style and speed, they lack the versatility of trucks, analysts say. Also, a sputtering economy makes consumers less apt to buy luxury cars, experts say.
While GM itself hasn't said how much money it expects to save by stopping production of the two models and closing the plant, Burnham Securities auto analyst David Healy said the company might save "tens of millions of dollars" annually.
Healy said he sensed this decision for years.
"I think they (GM) made the decision a long time ago given that there were no new features, styling or engines on the models," he said. "They wanted to spend money on products that have nice returns, like trucks."
Experts say sport-utility vehicles tend to be much more profitable than cars, with margins of $10,000 a vehicle versus a couple thousand dollars or less per car.
Nevertheless, some critics say killing the models doesn't do much for GM's image.
"We knew it was coming, but it is still disappointing," said Russ Shelton, president of Shelton Pontiac-Buick in Rochester Hills, Mich. "It (Firebird) was one of the biggest nameplates that GM had."
"They were cars planned by 60-year-olds for 20-year-olds, and 20-year-olds can't even insure them," said Jim Hall, an auto analyst with AutoPacific Inc. in Southfield, Mich. "If you look at the level of sales, GM was probably losing money just due to marketing costs."
After years of speculation that it would eventually do so, GM said Tuesday that it won't make Camaros and Firebirds after the 2002 model year. The auto maker will close its Ste. Therese assembly plant outside Montreal, where the two cars are made, next September. Employees at the Ste. Therese plant who are laid off due to the closure will receive a benefit package including income for three years, GM said.
The company blamed the decision on lower demand for sports cars (down 53% from 1990 to 2000), in part due to increased demand for trucks, and on excess manufacturing capacity.
GM said that the plant closure will result in a charge to third-quarter earnings of $300 million before taxes. The charge will lower the company's bottom line by $195 million, or about 35 cents a share, GM said.
Analysts surveyed by Thomson Financial/First Call on average expect GM to earn 81 cents a share in the third quarter.
Analysts say the increasing popularity of sport-utility vehicles and trucks caused demand for sports cars in recent years to dwindle. While sports cars offer style and speed, they lack the versatility of trucks, analysts say. Also, a sputtering economy makes consumers less apt to buy luxury cars, experts say.
While GM itself hasn't said how much money it expects to save by stopping production of the two models and closing the plant, Burnham Securities auto analyst David Healy said the company might save "tens of millions of dollars" annually.
Healy said he sensed this decision for years.
"I think they (GM) made the decision a long time ago given that there were no new features, styling or engines on the models," he said. "They wanted to spend money on products that have nice returns, like trucks."
Experts say sport-utility vehicles tend to be much more profitable than cars, with margins of $10,000 a vehicle versus a couple thousand dollars or less per car.
Nevertheless, some critics say killing the models doesn't do much for GM's image.
"We knew it was coming, but it is still disappointing," said Russ Shelton, president of Shelton Pontiac-Buick in Rochester Hills, Mich. "It (Firebird) was one of the biggest nameplates that GM had."
Supreme Member
Yeah, dumb isn't it? We live in a world where people will buy a sport utility, and never take it off road. Meanwhile, the actually fun vehicles (like the f-bodies, RX-7's, and 300ZX's) are dead. I hope that the soccer moms that killed my baby enjoy spending the rest of their lives driving 4 wheel drive minivans, with heated leather seats. We've already got our Camaro/Firebird, it's all the fools that are buying SUV's for the commute that will never know joy.
Fast Broker, don't tell me you didn't know that they were on their way out!
I'm saving up most of my rage for when the Camaro/Firebird comes back as a front wheel drive V6 (a la Monte Carlo, Impala, and Malibu).
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No guts, no glory.
Fast Broker, don't tell me you didn't know that they were on their way out!
I'm saving up most of my rage for when the Camaro/Firebird comes back as a front wheel drive V6 (a la Monte Carlo, Impala, and Malibu).
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No guts, no glory.
I have been hearing it for years but I NEVER thought the names could die. It just blows my mind. Several of my first few cars in high school were the older camaros...
Wonder if the value of all birds/maires has just gone up a bit?
Wonder if the value of all birds/maires has just gone up a bit?
Supreme Member
I dunno if our cars values will go up but the 4thgens will stay high. Used 300zx'z and RX7's are still relatively expensive for used cars because the new versions never came out.
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-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6
305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....
To be installed eventually far far far into the future: Yours if the price is right and I don't have to ship
:
Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248), Catco 3" cat, and injector spacer.
Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz
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-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6
305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....
To be installed eventually far far far into the future: Yours if the price is right and I don't have to ship
:Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248), Catco 3" cat, and injector spacer.
Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz
Bah, u guys knew this was coming...now take it like men. 
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Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html
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Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html
Member
Makes me want to go out and buy the last edition...
Too bad I can't waste $500+ on a monthly payment and then 200 a month for insurance....
Oh-well I have my third gen,,,
Hey, Anyone know why they didn't make manual 5.7 TPI third gens.. and if they did, How come I cant find them?
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92 Camaro 305 TBI Automatic
2.5 high flow cat, 2.5 pipes, 3.5in tip
shift kit
Tinted windows(legal)
Spark plug wires and plugs...
14X3 O.E. K&N Filter
Future mods.
Headers
any other advise on getting to 300+ HP would be appreciated. Thanks
11.0 Et @64mph on the 1/8 reaction time was 1.0+ with a 60ft at 2.5?(First run ever, didn't know which light to go on)
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System = Sony explode 5000 CD/MD receiver
Rockford 6x9 Fanatics
Rockford 4x6 Fanatics
Rockford 2 12" Hx2's
Rockford 1 farad cap
Rockford 800x2 Amp
Custom box
4gauge wire kit
https://www.thirdgen.org/rides/index...ew&rideid=6100
[This message has been edited by 92Camaro305TBI (edited September 26, 2001).]
Too bad I can't waste $500+ on a monthly payment and then 200 a month for insurance....
Oh-well I have my third gen,,,
Hey, Anyone know why they didn't make manual 5.7 TPI third gens.. and if they did, How come I cant find them?
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92 Camaro 305 TBI Automatic
2.5 high flow cat, 2.5 pipes, 3.5in tip
shift kit
Tinted windows(legal)
Spark plug wires and plugs...
14X3 O.E. K&N Filter
Future mods.
Headers
any other advise on getting to 300+ HP would be appreciated. Thanks
11.0 Et @64mph on the 1/8 reaction time was 1.0+ with a 60ft at 2.5?(First run ever, didn't know which light to go on)
---------
System = Sony explode 5000 CD/MD receiver
Rockford 6x9 Fanatics
Rockford 4x6 Fanatics
Rockford 2 12" Hx2's
Rockford 1 farad cap
Rockford 800x2 Amp
Custom box
4gauge wire kit
https://www.thirdgen.org/rides/index...ew&rideid=6100
[This message has been edited by 92Camaro305TBI (edited September 26, 2001).]
Supreme Member
they didn't make 350 TPI 5-speeds because the torque is higher than the torque rating of the t-5. It would have been too risky as a warranty issue.
Member
So sell me one without a warrenty...
Member
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fast_broker:
If you look at the level of sales, GM was probably losing money just due to marketing costs. </font>
hehe, what marketing costs? i mean, when was the last time you guys ever saw a firebird/camaro in a commercial that GM put out? i think i can remember 1 in the last 8 years. even when they scan the whole pontiac lineup to show the excitement of driving a pontiac, the firebird, they couldnt even spring for a friggin trans am, is in the back corner. but oh wait...let's stick a damn aztec/rendezvous in every commecial break. yeah, those are really selling like gm thought...<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fast_broker:
If you look at the level of sales, GM was probably losing money just due to marketing costs. </font>
i'm just a bit pissed with gm right now...can ya tell?
Pat
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'92 Firebird 305 TBI
3.73 Posi
ASCD Ram Air Hood
14X3 K&N
'00 WS6 Exhaust
'00 16x8 Wheels
http://www.geocities.com/birdv8
Supreme Member
Pukka
Supreme Member
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GM has been having problems selling the 4th gens ever since they started producing them. I think the problem was the new design, which alienated buyers since it looked NOTHING like the older generations.
Don't get me wrong, 4ths are arguably the best Camaro's ever built from a performance standpoint. But I'm sure if you put a 1st or 3rd gen car (ok, maybe not a second gen)beside a 4th gen and made a decision based solely on looks, the 4th gen would lose every time. Never in my life had I seen a TV ad for a camaro until the 4th gens came out.
The designers at Ford were smart....each new model mustang still resembles the older generations.....and you never see any mustang ads or commercials.
Looks like they are getting the last laugh.
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92 Camaro RS, LO3, 5-spd, T-tops
Performance:
K&N Open Air Filter, Edelbrock performer TBI intake, Fastchip Prom, Timing +4 degrees, Centerforce clutch, Xact 8mm wires, SLP 1 3/4" Headers (coated), Flowmaster Catback Exhaust, Z28 Grille w/aftmkt fog lamps, MacEwen white-face guages
Electronics:
Alpine 8030 Alarm System, Valentine One Radar Detector (How did I ever drive without one?), Pioneer DEH 7450 Head Unit w/6-pack CD changer, Pioneer DEQ 7600 Sound Processor, 2 Kenwood KAC-846 Amps powering 2 12" Pro Red subs, 2 Pioneer 6x9 and 2 MTX 4x6 speakers.
NEXT UP: TBI mods, 3.42 gears w/Torsen posi
Don't get me wrong, 4ths are arguably the best Camaro's ever built from a performance standpoint. But I'm sure if you put a 1st or 3rd gen car (ok, maybe not a second gen)beside a 4th gen and made a decision based solely on looks, the 4th gen would lose every time. Never in my life had I seen a TV ad for a camaro until the 4th gens came out.
The designers at Ford were smart....each new model mustang still resembles the older generations.....and you never see any mustang ads or commercials.
Looks like they are getting the last laugh.
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92 Camaro RS, LO3, 5-spd, T-tops
Performance:
K&N Open Air Filter, Edelbrock performer TBI intake, Fastchip Prom, Timing +4 degrees, Centerforce clutch, Xact 8mm wires, SLP 1 3/4" Headers (coated), Flowmaster Catback Exhaust, Z28 Grille w/aftmkt fog lamps, MacEwen white-face guages
Electronics:
Alpine 8030 Alarm System, Valentine One Radar Detector (How did I ever drive without one?), Pioneer DEH 7450 Head Unit w/6-pack CD changer, Pioneer DEQ 7600 Sound Processor, 2 Kenwood KAC-846 Amps powering 2 12" Pro Red subs, 2 Pioneer 6x9 and 2 MTX 4x6 speakers.
NEXT UP: TBI mods, 3.42 gears w/Torsen posi
Supreme Member
What about the Ferrari eating Trans Am or the kids in the bedroom naming the cars as they drove thur their neihborhood? As far as the Camaro or Firebird looking like the previous model. I don't think one generation looked like the other, 1st, 2nd, 3rd to 4th. Which ones do you think looks alike?
Supreme Member
Pukka
Supreme Member
close
May 27, 2019
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- EngineLO3 with some mods
- TransmissionT-5
- Axle/Gears3.42 Richmond
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Not so much as looking alike as seeing how the newer model resembling the older one.
Maybe not so much from 1st to 2nd gen. But you could definitely see similarities between 2nd and 3rd gens.
Maybe not so much from 1st to 2nd gen. But you could definitely see similarities between 2nd and 3rd gens.
Senior Member
That's good ole' ALL-AMERICAN business men for ya.....They salute the green, not the "RED WHITE AND BLUE"
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92' Camaro RS/Black,T-tops/350 TBI Targetmaster Comp.engine/5 spd/march underdrive pulleys/hedman hedders/3" dynomax exaust/hyper tech stage 2 chip/3.42 gears/K&N air filter/MSD blaster GM coil
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92' Camaro RS/Black,T-tops/350 TBI Targetmaster Comp.engine/5 spd/march underdrive pulleys/hedman hedders/3" dynomax exaust/hyper tech stage 2 chip/3.42 gears/K&N air filter/MSD blaster GM coil
Member
How about cutting out all that luxo-crap they put in it and lower the price of the F-body? They target 20 somethings but put it in the price range for 40 somethings. How stupid is that? They failed all around, homely looking styling for the Camaro (I like it), and juvinile styling for the Firebird (I really like it). But quite frankly, 30 grand for the model I want is re-g o d d a m -diculous.
How about, power nothing, basic cloth interior, smaller size w/ better use of space, and the biggest engine you can stuff in it. Hit 16k for the V-6, to 27k for the SS and you will have a winner.
[This message has been edited by 89RagTopRS (edited September 26, 2001).]
How about, power nothing, basic cloth interior, smaller size w/ better use of space, and the biggest engine you can stuff in it. Hit 16k for the V-6, to 27k for the SS and you will have a winner.
[This message has been edited by 89RagTopRS (edited September 26, 2001).]
Moderator
sure is tech. good discussion though. sorry.