Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Well just got my Vortecs re-re-done. Cut them for 2.05/1.65" valves and ported the intake side. They now flow 275/215 @ .0600". The pressed in studs were pulling out and I replaced them with screw-in studs. I substituted .100" longer than stock valves so I could fit in a good pair of springs for the added lift. My cam now lifts the valves .545/.575 with the 1.6:1 roller rockers. I am switching to a different intake manifold for this build. I am going with the Edelbrock Victor Jr. Vortec 2bbl P#2912. It works well with the heads and the cam. I fired it up friday evening and it sounds mean. Just something about that cam swinging those HUGE valves in that 350. I am using a 2" bore GM Marine TBI on a center mount TBI-Carb intake adapter, that is perched on-top of the Victor Jr. 2912. I had to grind the flange some on the manifold to clear the throttle blades and un-shroud the flow. The TBI really looks sweet on-top of the Victor Jr. The manifold is designed for 3,500-7,000, but still seems to make good low-end torque. I have a 2,600 rpm converter, but the Victor Jr. still seems to pull ok down to 1,200 rpm with the converter locked in OD. It will pull this one hill near my house @ 50 mph in OD with the TCC locked @ 1,200 rpm with ease. I did not even have to make any drastic prom tune changes. I just played with the MAP/TPS AE until I got the desired take-off. Up top is where this combo really shines. Before it would die off at about 5,600 and then I would let it shift @ 6,300. Now it pulls hard to the 6,500 rpm red-line. I timed it at 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, 0-100 in just a shade over 14 seconds. It will do 100+ MPH before reaching 6,000 rpm in 2nd gear. I REALLY need GEARS, BADLY. DD2003 predicts 500 HP @ 6,000. I do know that the changes killed just enough low-end torque to keep the tires from becoming overwhelmed and really woke the engine up where it wants to pull. I went on a highway trip in it this weekend and drove it about 600 miles. Ran great the entire trip. Still got 18 mpg on the road, with the single plane manifold! The only trouble I forsee is come winter. The intake manifold plenum stays cold to the touch now. I am thinking of adding a EFE heater grid from an early 80s ford product(they mount in the carb gasket), operated by the PCM through a relay to warm the air/fuel mixture on cold morning starts.

Tbi-MAX

dang all the power, and 18mpg.... how much TQ do you think its putting out now? that is just plain sick man....

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

It makes more torque than a stock 350 TBI does, even down at 2,000 rpm and even below that. I would hazard to say by the seat of the pants, it feels like a stock TBI 350 to 1,500 rpm. From 1,500 rpm to 6,500 rpm, HANG ON. The cam, intake, heads really turn on around 2,700 rpm. My torque guess is around 470 ft/lbs @ 4,500 rpm. It pulls harder than any 350 that I have ever driven. On my Datalogs I am seeing the MAF maxed out. I had to richen the PE A/F ratio above 5,500 rpm to compensate for the pegged MAF. The MAF pegs at 428 GM/SEC with the screen in place. The GenIII guys tell me 1 gm/sec is about 1 RWHP. I have NO appreciable manifold vacuum even up to 6,500 rpm, so the TBI is not holding back this engine ANY.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Fast...I want to have your knowledge for one day...for just one day....man....I just don't know where you come up with your ideas...I know a little bit of it has to do with the fact that your insane about TBI...but...the whole G20 van thing has been the coolest addition to TBI powered vehicles for me. I mean...I can't imagine the look on the peoples faces that you have probably left sitting at a stop light after you just took off in your van. Man...you make an experiment out of ever engine you build and I respect that so much. To you its more than a challenge...its an experiment to see how much you can squeeze out of every little thing and there isn't anybody I have ever met or talked to online that is like that...you are truly unique in your approach to this stuff and I look forward to your next creation.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I guess I shouldn't mention that I am getting blowby that is forcing oil to seep past the various gaskets and seals when the engine goes above 4,500 rpm. My next project is a crankcase windage screen and crankshaft scrapper. I am also mounting an early 90s 5.0 mustang emissions air pump to run as a crankcase vacuum pump. It will bolt right up to my existing brackets and pull 7-8 in/hg of vacuum on my crankcase. This should compensate for the power taken to drive the pump and eliminate my oil seeps. There maybe 10-20 HP in the two parts.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Wow Fast...what a system...I hope you will have some pics and vids...I have book marked your you tube page...

LOL...

JB

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I don't have any pictures yet, but this is the top-end of the engine.

The current manifold seems to extract the last bit of HP from every gram of airflow into the engine. It is after-all for a 2bbl race class.



I am running with a TranDapt TBI-Carb Adapter. I bought two versions and like the larger of the two better. They both work about the same though.

First One I bought


The 2nd and current one I am running

JohnBlazeLTZ

Nice...so those are for Vortec's. Do you have emissions equipment? How many times have you had those 906's worked on? Isn't it like 2-3 times now or more? Well...that saying that Vortec's don't benefit from being worked on is kind of out the window now huh? How much work have you had done to them now? Was it a two step process or did you just get an idea that they could use a little more work in certain areas?

Tbi-MAX

that is the same EXACT tbi adaptor plate from carb I have!! i LOVE it! the 2nd one in the pic!

i really need to start tuning and data logging to see what my truck does up top, cause i havent flogged it just yet.... but your setup sounds crazy insane, to even pull that type of RPMS, and still make power!

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Just going to further show, It CAN be done. I am planning to pull the 18cc dished hypereutetic pistons out of it and put forged flat-top pistons in it. This will increase the compression ratio from 9.5:1 up to 10.5:1 and increase the HP/TQ of the engine further. Even at 10.5:1, with the vortecs, the proper thermostat, good cooling system, and the accurate TBI setup, I will be able to run 93 octane all day long.

Tbi-MAX

530hp @ 6500 rpm is sick... especially TBI setup... what size injectors and psi handles this? yes you have proved it can be done... yea, I agree about the compression ratio, mines pretty high also, and runs fine on regular 93 all day... and with the 160 tstat it does fine...

JohnBlazeLTZ

Ugh...dang...I always thought a bit higher compression on a TBI would net a bigger gain but you have taken it to a whole other level with that intake and those heads. I mean...I don't think anybody has ever got as extreme as that manifold.

Fast...are you using header with true duals or a single out exhaust system? Here's the thing. Some people don't realize that most TBI equipped vehicles leave the production line with single out exhaust. Just by converting to true duals...there is a huge gain to be had there for a TBI system. A lot of engine builder that offer TBI engines quote the power levels for a TBI engine running a single out system...while other quote running true duals. I would say there is a 30hp pick up at least to be had by using duals.

I mean...take may car for example. In 1993, the Caprice LTZ came with a single out exhaust and a rating of 180 hp. What if it had true duals like the 1994-1996 260hp LT1 powered B-Body's did? What kind of rating would it have had then I wonder? With the L98 cam, 68lb/hr injectors and a 3 inch outlet cat converter...the 1993 9C1 was rated at about 210-215hp...with out dual exhaust...so how much could a dual exhaust equipped car achieve with TBI? I would say the 1993 TBI 350 would've been a lot closer power ratings wise to the LT1 powered B-Body of 1994-1996 if they wouldn't have corked it up so much. Add another 30hp to the 9C1 rated TBI and you get 245hp. I mean...that's only 15 hp shy of the coveted 260hp LT1 the B-Body had...

With the TBI Trucks...and Vortec heads...the Vortec powered TBI 350's were rated at 260hp. Most people say that mod'd 193 Swirl ports will mimic the early design Vortec heads. I mean...technically...I think the TBI 350 in my 1993 Caprice could've had 100 more hp if they would've done it right but they put all the wrong parts on it...the combination of cam and stock 193's alone was a cork...then they go and throw a single out exhaust system on it? To me my 1993 Caprice is GM's gross experiment on how to make the most underrated FI 350 in Chevy's history.

Then I look at some of the guys around here...and they have done everything under the sun to churn every drop of power out of the "supposedly" non-performance design and overall totally undesirable TBI. I wonder why GM ever discounted the possibility of using it for longer than they did. Its a simple design, easy to understand, cheap to buy parts for yet the "Mainstream" after market industry avoids it like the plague...even though the idea of TBI can be retro fitted onto almost every engine under the sun. Anything from Chevy 350's to AMC 258ci straight 6's....four door classics and extreme 4x4 rock crawlers. Its a hugely underrated FI system that guys around here have been capitalizing on for years and years and will continue to capitalize on for years to come.

Apeiron

The advent of better control systems with MPFI allowed for more precise fuel control to meet more stringent emissions and fuel economy requirements.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Damn... Cant wait to see what it does on teh dyno.

Dont forget that the MAF PCM code is also set up to use a manifold temperature sensor in the AE calcs (the TFT sensor input if your not running an e-trans). If your not using an e-trans, you'll likely want to use this as the seasons change. W/o the sensor, the AE will change from minute to minute as the manifold warms and cools.
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I think one of the biggest issues is that its a wet flow system like a carb, so getting good emissions across the board is difficult. It can be made to be precise, but it doesn't matter much if all the fuel is slugging on the floor of the manifold.

Apeiron

Pretty much. Just like a carb, you can make power with it but it's no longer suitable for production vehicles.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Sure...that's all fine and good but...they could've added fuel rails with injectors...which are mostly off the shelf parts...got rid of the two injectors and just used the TB for air induction...now that's neither here nore there...but...they scrapped a whole technology for something (LT1 B-Body) that although created better perf. it came along with a whole slew more problems...the Opti Spark...all the additional sensor problems...Dex-Cool...the 4L60E trans problems...aluminum radiators and heater cores...etc...etc...in the end...its decisions like these that are causing the demise of General Motors today...better always means more complicated!!! Considering that the Dex-Cool lawsuit is now close to reaching class action status...I'm of the opinion that what GM has done for the last 10 years is finally catching up to them...and its sad too because they have always been my favorite car maker. They have the technology...they just didn't put it to the best use.

JohnBlazeLTZ

...totally....it was a better system in a lot of ways...but they didn't just stop with the FI...they changed almost everything when the LT1 came to the B-Body...everything had to be electronic and they had to add more sensors and redesign the computer system...more problems. That is the main thing that I noticed with e 1994-1996 B-Bodys'...they had WAY more issues than my TBI...although not faster in any way shape or form...it was just way more dependable...alt of thing could be handled by myself. Like tune ups for my car came in at under $100...even at a shop....an LT1 tune up...$1500 at a local mechanic!!!

Go figure....they made the wheel more complicated...

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

I dont know what to tell you there! They dont come much bigger then that! Can you post up a snippet of it? The PCM will register up to 512 grams/second of air, so if the frequency isnt pegged at 12 kHz, you may be able to use some of the fluff out top to help compensate or dink with the injector constant to lower the values in the MAF table if its at 512 gms/sec and the MAF isn't yet at 12 kHz.

Apeiron

4L60E... Shifting had to be placed under control of the PCM for fuel-economy reasons.
Aluminum radiators... Too much lead was used in soldering expensive brass, and too much fuel was used lugging heavy brass radiators around.
Dex-Cool... Too much pollution from toxic glycol, and too much corrosion in engines made lighter with aluminum components.

Additional sensor problems? Sensor technology itself hasn't changed. An LT1 uses essentially the same sensors as a TBI.

None of these sorts of problems are unique to GM. Every car maker has problems when they introduce new technology.


Opti Spark though... I'll give you that one.

DLV555

iTrader: (1)

TBI was outlawed in 1996 by the EPA on new vehicles. OBDII does not allow for wet flow systems, they all have to be sequential MPFI. It's not GM's fault, they were doing what was required of them. Have you ever seen the iduction on a vortec engine, or a CSFI engine to be more specific? It looks like a TBI but with indiviual sequentially fired injectors, so it's pretty much what you were describing.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Those had those awful poppets that worked like fuel injectors until they clogged or the plastic housing cracked and spewed fuel into the intake. I think they did away with that after awhile and went with regular injectors in place of the popets. I had a CPI motor and I really hated those things.

Fast, the other possible limit in the PCM as far as fueling goes is the grams/cylinder of air. It maxes out at 2 gms/cylinder (although I think its nearly impossible to exceed it). When I designed it, I didnt quite have this in mind Although if its the MAF itself, then you have to continue to take the same route that the MAF guys use to richen the fuel in PE, or get a MAF that reports over 512 grams per second and use the injector constant to scale the MAF tables down so you can see flows greater then 512 grams/second. IOW, making the injector constant 2x as large makes the MAF tables go from 0-1024 grams/second. The resolution will still be 1/64th of a gram, which should be plenty. This will also increase the grams/cylinder limit to 4 grams instead of 2.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Its funny that GM kept the TBI a few years longer than that. In fact several car makers kept TBI with OBDII.
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The limit that I am talking about is the stock MAF table reads 428 gm/sec @12,000 HZ. I am still running the stock MAF table for the sensor and it works great at all other RPMs. At about 5,700 rpm the MAF gives 12,000 HZ and stops climing. That is 428 gms/sec @ 5,700 rpm. That is what I mean by the MAF being maxed out. I know I can fudge things if need be and I have.

Lucid

iTrader: (4)

I have had two Modine aluminum radiators and they both cooled better than any brass 3 row or 2 row radiators i have tried. Aluminum does eventually loose its conductivity due to the nature of the metal, but it works so much better.

The Dex-cool idea is possibly one of the worst products that GM has ever made. My girl has a 2002 Buick Rendezvous and that stuff is more corrosive than glycol ever was. It eats everything, aluminum, gaskets and all sorts of engine components. We have replaced the radiator, intake gaskets, head gaskets and numerous other components because of that awful Dex-cool stuff. We have the typical "clay" underneath the radiator cap that seems to be so common with cars that run this slop.
In of itself its not as bad as the reaction GM had to this tremendous problem, totally ignoring the facts at hand and the damage it was causing.

Fast355
Congrats on the TBI upgrades, i knew that system could make some power.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Wow. Thats alot of air. what kind of pressure drops are you seeing? Might want to look at other MAFs. I know some could read higher then others, but none over 500 g/sec that Ive seen unless the new Z06 has one that goes higher.

DLV555

iTrader: (1)

I wasn't referring to CPI, but CSFI. Although I guess the CSFI motors had poppets too, just with indvidual, sequentially fired injectors. I had a CPI engine and actually never had a problem with it. I guess I got lucky because I hear TONS of complaints about that one.

No kidding? Cool. Was that on heavy duty vehicles?

Oh, and Kudos on this engine Fast355. I am always impressed by your work. I am definitely inspired by you in my own TBI porject.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Actually it was on both light and HD. For instance above 8600 lbs you could get the TBI up to like 1998 or so, OBDI at that. Then you had some of the GEO products that stayed TBI up to 1998 or 1999 running OBDII. Their 3 cylinder was TBI its entire life, to my knowledge.

Edit- Just pulled it up. The Geo/Chevrolet Metro 3 cylinder was TBI up till the end of production in 2001.

Apeiron

That makes sense. I don't think the industrial HD vehicles had CAFE to worry about, and a 3 cylinder Metro probably had the fuel evaporate out of the tank faster than the engine could burn it.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Sure...all points well taken...brass is expensive but aluminum is far more fragile...as I have come to find out....and I'll definately give you the lead solder thing...I have had a radiator issue for the last nine months because I was using a Dex Cool Clone and I didn't know it. As it turns out, Prestone's All Makes All Models slogan was all B.S. because it didn't have any protection for rads with lead solder.

As far as the sensors go...I have a friend that has a 1996 9C1 Caprice...he has sensor problems. Apparently...he has like 6 sensors and I only have 3...and his car never runs right. Its alway messed up. Leaking coolant by the opti spark and he had to do the air pump removal procedure because coolant was leaking down into the air pump...bizarre problems. His trans took a dump on him and cost him an arm and a leg...I paid 17-1800 for a BUILT trans with all the toys...he paid 1700 for a stock trans...the oner with all the toys apparently was going to cost him close to 2600 from what he told me.

Overall...when I make these comparisons...I am using my experience with the Lt1 powered B Body vs. the TBI powered one...because even though I have had my issues with this car...they pale in comparison to how much trouble my friend has had with his LT1 powered Cappy. Some days he even says he regrets buying it...which is sad. He has spent a lot of money on that car and most day he really hates it. Its got a great engine...but it has cost him and arm and a leg and it still don't run right.

I'm with you on the advent of technology but it has complicated things. The only real advantage to the LT1 aside from the improved fuel economy is that they designed it to intake cold air at the front of the engine vs. dead center on the top like a carb/TBI...where it is more likely to draw in warmer air. I think improved air induction could've been had on the TBI as wll and helped out with MPG also....but...its all old news so...its in the past...nothing can be done about it....good points though man...for sure.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Yeah...I seen it...your right..I know about them forcing OBDII down their throats. The Edlebrock MPFI TBI intake FI kit is similar to that. They use the TBI for air intake only and have fuel rails to inject the fuel...I guess the TBI trucks can pcik up 35hp from swapping over to it. The crummy thing is that Edlebrock doesn't like to allow much mod's to the system..although guys have put it to use in their own way...Edlebrock doesn't support using it for custom tuning perf. application...like many of the guys around here do...which is sad...its a decent set up that offers much improved drive ability over a stock TBI system. For instance...when called them about it...I called them asking about putting it on a Caprice with TBI and they wouldn't even talk to me about it. they said "It wasn't designed for the Caprice." I said "I realize that but the issue that come into play is the Caprice distributor hole in the intake isn't big enough and it would need to be bored out..." and he basically ended the phone call after that....he didn't even want to talk about using it outside of its intended design.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Did you have plastic end tanks? I had a Howe all Aluminum racing rad and I loved it...but when it needed repair...it wasn't as easy to fix. Eventually I had them send me my money back and I returned it because it started leaking 3 weeks after I had them fix it. Its been said that once Aluminum goes bad...it can't be fixed. I had the in-tank coolers for trans and oil fluids. Every time I popped my hood guys were eyeballing it...it was a sight to be seen that is for sure. It went with my Flex-A-Lite dual fans like peanut butter goes with jelly too. The whole set up was just sick...I loved it.

The thing about the aluminum vs. copper is that aluminum needs bigger tubes because it doesn't conduct heat the same way brass does...so it NEEDS to flow better to get the same level of cooling. Beware that a lot of the aluminum uses epoxy for bonding and if it has plastic tanks...they always seem to separate from the core at some point. I had two plastic tanks rads and they both let loose on my in under two years. I now have a brass copper 3 row and I am keeping my fingers crossed.

BTW...what engine did the Rendezvous come with? Some of those engines had plastic intakes that warped due to heat...that could explain the clay crud in the fluid...

JohnBlazeLTZ

LOL...and I know that this isn't a road vehicle but...a lot of boats still use TBI's till this day...Mercury Marine still builds nice TBI engines that are meant to be used in boats. They use nicer water pumps and stuff meant to get wet....some guys have even been using the Vortec TBI Marine intake...Fast can vouch for that I think...

Lucid

iTrader: (4)

Yep i still have a Modine aluminum radiator in the car now, and i added some dual fans i got off of Ramchargers when they still existed. They work together very well, and i hardly ever see over 220 degrees in 90 degree weather with the A/C on.

I had a 2 row and a 3 row brass radiator in the car for many years and it worked pretty good. I wanted to try an aluminum unit and gave the brass unit to my dad to put into his Camaro.

The first Modine i bought was from a junkyard and it worked exceptionally well, and it sprung a leak a few months later in the aluminum by one of the tanks. I replaced that one with a GM Harrison unit and it never did cool the same. I sold that one and bought another brand new Modine from a NAPA store here for $120 with a lifetime warranty.


They are lightweight and pretty durable from what i have seen. If it ever does pop its going to be replaced with a new one from Modine. The dual fans upgrade is the best upgrade i think you can do with the cooling system besides a really good quality radiator. If you cant afford a big buck Becool or an all aluminum radiator (like me at the time) a Modine is affordable and the dual fan Intrepid fan upgrade very worthwhile and affordable.

I have a couple pics of the modification i did to make it fit here:

http://lucidbarrier.tripod.com/id3.html


It is a V6 3400 series engine. The intake is a two piece aluminum intake (i think) that is much like the V6 MPFI intakes that i have seen, except sideways. The Dex-Cool eats the composite/poorly constructed gasket that is sandwiched in between them and corrodes it away until it leaks.

If you do a search on Rendezvous problems, you will see that it is a very common problem. They revised the intake gasket at GM but i still think you are better off with traditional antifreeze instead.

BTW it took me months to fix the car, there is no service manual on the car from Haynes, Chiltons etc. I ended up having to find a Venture repair manual in order to properly take it apart. You have to empty the A/C system in order to take off the radiator/condenser unit. My girl was out of work and things were really tight, and a really nice seller on ebay sold me a used radiator for under a $100.

JohnBlazeLTZ

Sorry to hear about those issues with that Buick. It sucks when you get a new car and it has problems after a short time...

Dude...the Howe I had was great but...I don't know if I would go back to an aluminum rad again for a daily driven car...if it was a weekend driver then yes...but not a daily driver.

LOL...I am VERY familiar with Modine...actually...Modine has its World Headquarters is in our Sister City to the north of me called Racine, WI. I drive past it often!!!

http://www4.modine.com/v2portal/modi...=modineContact

Modine World Headquarters
1500 DeKoven Avenue
Racine, Wisconsin 53403-2552
United States of America

I have had a rad issue for some time...the shop I took it to said if this latest fix doesn't work that he wants to take it to Modine and have them run tests on it to determine if there is electricity in the fluid that might be killing my rads. The shop can't find anything.

Anyway man...I think Fast's thread is getting off topic because of me...so if you want to chat some more...feel free to PM me. (Sorry Fast...I got carried away...)

Thanks for the intellectual stimulation...

JB

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

very nice Fast


this would probably be better talked about over on the cooling board.
on Dex-cool, a lot of auto mechanics don't call it Dex-A-Goo for nothing.

its generally not the hard components of the cooling system thats the problem.
cheap anti-freeze is just that, cheap, meaning they left something out to lower the price.
also, just like anti-freeze, not all water is the same. the best water to use IMO is distilled water.

it sounds like you have problems with either chemical corrosion or stray voltage in the cooling system. good grounds are very important.
if bad enough, electrolysis can kill a new radiator in days, not weeks.

some articles about it, http://www.radiatorreporter.com/electrol.html
http://www.usaradiator.com/informati...icle%20pdf.pdf
http://www.awrracing.com/media/electrolysis.pdf

Lucid

iTrader: (4)

Yeah startup a new thread in the cooling section and we will talk about it more.
Or if you want go to my club board and we can discuss it in detail.
http://sa3go.proboards105.com

Denn_shah gives some pretty good advice, i think he was the one that told me about the dual fans when i was talking about improving a/c efficiency. I think its electrolysis too and it can affect transmissions, radiators and anything with dissimilar metals.

BTW the modine has been in my daily since 2005 when i did that site.

JohnBlazeLTZ

LOL...You guys haven't seen this yet I guess huh?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/cool...ctrolysis.html

come on over and we can talk some more about it...

JB

1badz71tahoe

Lingenfelter has a custom designed MAF for ....... $299.99

It's right on ebay, but let me know if you need a link to it, they sell it in their Ebay Store.

- B

camshaftxe

Fast355 I envy you. Did'nt you get into 11's with a tbi 305? Could you give me some advice about reaching 350hp range or maybe some low 13's?

92firebird 305

i have a 350 thats bored 30 over thats at the machine shop might have to get bored 10 more over what is that in cubic inches al so how much ower will i get with a 350 tbi bored 40 over with a lt1 cam new valve springs its got tbi heads with casting number 193 with port and polish and 3 angle valve job i mgonna get my intake bored to 2 inches or buy a new one and do the samething get 350 injectors that 18 psi spring the specs on the cam are 205/07 lift is 447/460 116 lsa im hopeing to get over 300 hp and 350 tq i just want enough power to beat gt mustangs not the 5.0 that would be bad *** to beat one of them but i dont have that much money for that. right now the motor has trw pistons