I’ve had a rich start up condition for some time now on my TBI 88 Firebird and have tried to replace just about everything under the hood that might contribute to the black smoke on start up such as new TB, injectors, CTS, IAC, MAP, TPS, wires, plugs, cap, and rotor just to name a few. The plugs indicate a normal combustion so the problem only exists on warm startup conditions. I am at a loss on what else I should try to solve this problem and am looking for any other suggestions. I have also tried to lower the FP to 9 psi but encounter bog on acceleration and the car still runs rich on startup. Does anyone else have this problem with EFI I thought that only carbs would behave this way? Anyways thanks for any suggestions you can provide.

 

I have the same problem with my 89 RS TBI. What codes have you been retrieving? I just spoke with a member recently who said that there are multiple problems and conditions that make the car run rich, along with difficult to isolate, are your injectors leaking?

 

Hookup a scan tool and make sure all your sensor values look normal. Since you say only rich at startup that rules out the o2 sensor. You're obviously having problems with open loop and this can be a really tuff thing to work out. Have you pulled any codes?

 

What do you think it could be if it is rich all of the time, but smokes only when warming up? Codes 32, 42, 53

 

The only code I am pulling is the EGR (32) I have replaced the injectors (have three sets one new two used all with same results) I have winaldl set up on my laptop and am seeing no irregular values except the car thinks it is lean 128-134 on the BLM readings even with the afpr set to the highest setting 13 psi at 9-10 psi Blms are at 150-160 so I am at the factory setting of 11.5. If I run the car with out the map sensor vaccum attached it runs so rich it smokes the whole time so I replaced the map sensor with a new one but to no avail so now I am trying to see if the vaccum signal has any thing to do with the rich start up condition. Does anyone have a normal running car that they can post all of their winaldl data up so the rest of us can see what we should aspire to???? Thanks for the quick replies and keep them coming.

 

I have the same problem with my 89 RS TBI. What codes have you been retrieving? I just spoke with a member recently who said that there are multiple problems and conditions that make the car run rich, along with difficult to isolate, are your injectors leaking? 89rs305tbi

So what sort of multiple problems did this member describe. Anyone else know of any open loop problems that could cause a rich startup condition as indicated by a small puff of black smoke?

 

What is your o2 sensor readings while in open loop? Just curious
It doesn't sound like a vacuum problem, that usually means it's a lean condition. Definatly not an exhaust leak, car would run lean their too as long as exhaust leak is before o2 sensor.
While in open loop the ONLY thing that doesn't get looked at is the o2 sensor. You said once it warms up you're running a high BLM above 128 (lean) so have you checked and verified that the coolant and IAT sensors are telling you normal values! If you have a resistor in place of the IAT you can screw things up with cold/hot starts. Other than that I don't know what to tell you except that you should post your logged winaldl data on this post and let me review it with you.
Get as much data as possible. The best would be having you log all the data right at a cold startup and then wait a few minutes, let the idle come down, then drive around town with NO fast pedal movements. Drive until operating temp, take it to about 55mph in both 3rd and 4th gear for like 20 seconds each. Then come to a stop and let it idle again then turn it off. It'll be a big txt file but I can import it into excel and graph the important info.

 

Yes I have checked the IAT and CTS values and they seem to be reasonable CTS - 170-180 (lower temp thermo and chip to go with it, no difference in start up smoke) and IAT - 190-220 on average as I recall. How do you want me to save the data, raw or corrected, and where do you want me to send it and how? Thanks for all the help Jon.
94'_SS

 

Download the newest version of winaldl from his site. The datalogger records all raw, flah, error, and corrected data. We should be able to figure out what's wrong just from looking at the data. Winaldl will save the data to a text file that looks something like 20020123_175753.txt
The year 2002, month 01, day 23, at 17:57 (5:57pm) and 53 seconds.
It'll be in the winaldl directory. Just attach it to your reply to this post. If you need help with that let me know or just e-mail me the file.
I'll see if I can get a friend to send me some "normal" data.

 

Here are some results, at first I let the computer take some data points with the car in only the on position, then I started the car and let it run for a few min, then I took it around the block a few times. The data seems a little small to me. So if I messed up I will take some more later. Thanks for the help again Jon.

 

I have a lot of school work that takes priority but one thing I noticed is the in a bunch of places your o2 sensor data is grounding out. Check your o2 sensor wire and make sure it isn't grounding out. Sometimes they get burned on exhaust and ground when you go over a bump etc.
I can usually tell when the ecm burps the incorrect data from line interferance but the o2 readings are at .004 for a lengthy period of time. Enough to make the ecm think it's running lean and compensate for the condition in closed loop operation. You'll run black smoke out the back.
Expect me to review the data tomorrow nite or friday.
BTW, you have PLENTY of time, 16.308 minutes to be exact . I love winaldl, it's my favorite program of all time.
Now if only I could find the time to go back and edit the aldl stream to display the timing. Anybody want to go through the hack and do that for me?

 

Same here, I am in a Mechanical Engineering program at U.T. at Tyler and it is a time consuming process with all the classes and homework. Thanks for the quick replies and I will try to see if the O2 wire is grounded some where near the exhaust manifolds as soon as I get a chance. Thanks again for the quick replies and all of the help.

 

Anyone know where the O2 sensor wire is on the wiring harness so I can bypass the main part of the wire to see if I can stop the random shorting? I was going to see if I can tap into the wire as soon as it comes into the engine bay from the computer and go to the sensor with a new wire to see if I can stop the shorting out problem. Thanks for the help.

 

Hey Jon I drove my car around some more and found out that the 02 values only went to .004 when I let off the gas so I went to a large hill and when I got over the top I let off the gas and the O2 values went to .004 for the entire hill down grade. I attached some more readings if it helps any. So it seems that I dont have a short in the 02 wire but should it go to .004 for such a long time without the car wanting to richen up the mixture?

 

Yeah, like I said, I didn't have a chance to compare the TPS postion vs the o2. I didn't have any time considering calc is kicking my you know what. Didn't help that my internet was down all day yesterday because the stupid service, now on your 3rd modem and FINALLY got it working.
I'll review the data and post some excel charts later tonight.

 

Yea calc sucked [all of them but especially multivariate pulled a C in that one] so which calc are you suffering through? And buy the way if you are in Engineering the worst parts are when physics and calc come together in statics and dynamics now those classes really sucked. The part that sucked the worst was the fact that I could do everything forward and backward on my TI-89 but we could never use the calculators in class. The next time you post on here could you explain how you put the data into excel and what sort of conversions are necessary to put the raw data into a more usable format?

 

Any new ideas?????

 

"The only code I am pulling is the EGR (32) I have replaced the injectors"



Did you inspect the EGR valve and vacuum hoses and replace if necessary?

Why are you checking 02 & MAP sensors and replacing injectors if you are gettting a EGR trouble code?

 

Yes I have replaced the EGR and checked the vacuum hoses and solenoid for proper operation. This EGR code my car is spitting out is the one when you drive at highway speed for a long time then let up on the gas it will signal. This only happens about once a month when I take a road trip on the highway of more than 20 miles. Is there some way that the EGR would affect the car at startup? To the best of my understanding the EGR only functions at cruising speeds and at a certain operation temp other than that and especially at idle the solenoid is closed to prevent a rough idle or the equivalent of the EGR not even being there. Thanks for ideas though

 

"I’ve had a rich start up condition for some time now on my TBI 88 Firebird and have tried to replace just about everything under the hood that might contribute to the black smoke"

On a cold start, depeding on ambient temperature, your mixture should be slightly rich until it's warmed up... Just curious how many miles are on the engine???

You say your plugs read "normal" ok then you might have a slightly tired engine. Worn valve stem seals leaking a little oil... when you shut down and puff when you fire it up again.

My old 305 with 120,000 miles had this condition it would fire up, blow a little smoke then clear up. Just a small block chevy thing.

I asked about the EGR because I had the same problem years ago... the car would throw a code after getting off the throttle at highway speeds.

Did you check your timing?

 

This problem does not happen on cold startup only when I drive the car somewhere and I restart it within a few minutes of turning the car off. It seems to me that I have a combo of fuel left in the manifold from me driving it then the computer commands even more fuel to get the motor running leaving me with overly rich condition and black smoke out the tail pipes. If I let the car sit for about an hour it does not smoke at all. I have the timing advanced till the knocks stopped on winaldl which is about 4 degrees base timing using 93 octane. The problem is not the valve seals because the car does not smoke at all on overnight cold startup. And the weirdest thing happened when I took the car out of town today no EGR code popped up so maybe it is now happy with the new EGR.

 

Another thing that I have noticed is that when the car decides to run rich the car starts off glugg, glugg, glugg, instead of going varoom. When the car starts and sounds like varoom than the rpms go up to about 1600 then gradually fall back to idle but when the smoke shoots out the car only goes up to about 1000 RPM then settles down to idle.

 

hmmmm... Fuel puddling in the manifold?

How is the fuel pump and the regulator? You said you replaced the injectors so they shouldn't be leaking.

 

Pressure stays steady at 11.5 psi according to my gauge on my inlet fuel line. But when I try to put the pressure down to 9 or 10 the car bogs and it still smokes on warm restart sometimes.

 

I just found out that my AIR system is also not operating (no vacuum at AIR filter) could this cause the faint black smoke due to the AIR system not diluting the air coming out of the exhaust? How much vacuum should be felt at the AIR system filter?

 

I looked at the data and I don't see anything abnormal except for the fact that your car under deceloration runs EXTREAMly lean. Those o2 values are way below spec. and it's displayed for a while which isn't normal.
The other thing I noticed is that your AIR system seems to be working fine. You can see the flags for the air diverger switch are always off. This basically means the air is always going to the cat converter. This is dependent on cold/warm start/restarts, coolant temp etc. The only time the air diverter switch would be on is to divert air to exhaust manifolds to help warm up the o2 sensor. It's actually kind of worthless because the o2 sensor warms up plenty fast just from a slightly rich open loop (almost all cars). You'd be better off ripping the stuff out, won't through any error codes and cleans up the engine bay a lot. If you want just leave one small hose going to the cat converter AIR pipe.
It would help if you could pin point when in the logged data, that the rich problem is occuring. Glug glug and lower rpm is a sign but it might be better if you just logged the warm restarts up without unhooking the winaldl log. This way when it happens you can wait like 15 seconds and then stop the log and you'll know where to look at the data. You've got over 800 cells of data and it took me a while to scan over it in excel.
BTW, I have a rough draft of a tech article to make every winaldl users life easier.
It's 2 pages on paper so only gonna be like a page long without the screen shots. I don't have the time to learn 2 programming languages (Fortran AND VBscript), calc 3, sign language (elective), and engineering graphics!!! I guy can only do so much
I'll have the tech article up definatly by this weekend. Probably tomorrow evening if this crappy flood warning weather keeps up.

 

Is it possible to cut the amount of fuel that gets the car running by half through prom burning? What I have done to stop the smoke problem is unhook one of the injectors and the car starts fine without it but after about three seconds it starts to sputter from the lack of fuel so then I have to hook up the second injector. So it seems to me if I could cut the amount of fuel it takes to start the car by half I could fix this problem.

 

190-220 on your IAT? That's too high. Even with an open element, that shouldn't get that hot. Mine never goes over 100 and I have open element and headers. Or am I reading your post wrong...?? Or am I even in the same football game?

 

Yea, I thought it was that high but after hooking up winaldl I found the iat to range from 60- 80 deg.

 

SS, you're BLMs are telling me that you're running too lean. In closed loop your BLMs are always above 128. That is NOT a good thing. The ecm is having to add fuel to the stock VE tables (fuel map in the eprom). At one point you were at 149! That's like major problems.
I also noticed that your MAP sensor is funky! At idle the map signal the ecm saw was almost 100kpa! That is your problem right there. You're map sensor is telling the ecm that the manifold pressure has gone WAY up when in reality it hasn't.
Check out the map reading at row 808 in your 20020123_091430_log.txt file. Open it up with excel, it's easier to view, just click finish when excel asks you to import the file, don't bother with clicking next...next...next.
Also look at your o2 voltage. It shouldn't be sustaining a solid .004 for as long as it is, almost 40 seconds!!! There is no excuse for that unless you're ecm is playing games with me. It seems to me that your map sensor wire is loose somewhere or tapping out with a crossed wire somewhere.
You might not have noticed if the o2 wire is grounding out BUT like you said before, it only happens when you decelorate (looking at your rpm and mph). The o2 wire could be swinging forward and grounding out on the block or something of that sort. I've got a good feeling that we can pinpoint this problem very soon. Sorry it's been so long since my last reply, I've been really busy with school. I'm still not done reviewing the rest of the data. I haven't gotten past the sensor and BLM info. I'll look at the flags and error codes soon, just do me a favor and recheck the o2 wire and something is wrong with your MAP sensor or wiring.
Did you do any of your "own" wiring like fog lights or something of that sort? I don't have the time right now but I'm going to go through my head what happens after you've been at idle for a while and while the car is warm. I think it might be something the ecm is doing is turning on something which is infact messing up the map sensor. I would adjust your fuel pressure till you get BLMs around 128. I have mine around 126 because I know I'd rather be slightly rich than lean. You're car really looks just like mine did when I was having lean condition problems. You need to watch the MAP sensor voltage when the car is at idle and when it does that run rich blow smoke routine. Please confirm that and we'll work from there.

 

What values do I need to check the map sensor for resistance and function readings I collect from winaldl and what values should the wiring harness have also? I once unhooked the map sensor vacuum line and found that it made my smoking problem occur all of the time so I bought a new one thinking that the old sensor had become too slow, but the problem (Black smoke at startup) still occurred. It would not be the first time a part I bought did not work. And I am going to crank up the FP again to see if it helps out my driving lean condition.

 

You should never have more than 60kpa MAP reading when at idle. The onlytime it goes near 100kpa is when you mash the pedal to the floor. Something is major wrong with the map sensor if it's going to 90+kpa when you're at idle, that's like unplugging the map sensor.
Change it and see if that fixes your problem. I still think there is something seriously wrong with the o2 wire grounding out when you slow down the vehicle. 40 seconds of a .004v on the o2 sensor is NOT normal.

 

I was referring to the wiring to see if there is a short or something. Is one wire supposed to read 5V in the on position and the other two read something else? What sort of resistance should I see on the map sensor itself? And when I put the winaldl data into excel what can I do to convert the raw numbers into something I can understand?

 

if anyone actually takes the time to look way down here at my post i was getting code 32 because of a bad fuel pump that was feeding so much fuel that it would flood, bog, stall, ****, and all kind of other stuff and when i went to change the filter even with the fuses pulled a CRAPLOAD of gas came out and wouldnt stop...i think the pump was stuck on or something

 

Jon, I checked on the map sensor and it is working fine right now the only time it is at 100 is when the key is on but the engine is not running. Here are some readings taken just when the problem of the rich startup condition was occuring.