VATS...car won't start
Guest
Posts: n/a
VATS...car won't start
Problem: Couple days ago, car wouldn't start, no turning, nothing, as if the starter went out. Trued about 12 times, finally it starts for some reason. Get home, next morning nothing, tried like 100 times and nothing. Send it to the shop because I had no time to work on it and they replace the VATS relay in the kick panel and it starts up fine, no problems. Bring it home, try to go out that night...nothing, same thing. Now, what could it be? How can I trace the problem with VATS? Problem could be in the column somewhere, so how do I go about accessing inside the column and what am I looking for? Please explain this to me like I am 12, lol. Could it be a short somewhere? If it is the relay again, why would this happen? A wiring diagram would be helpful too. How many wires are involved with the VATS system? and any other helpful information concerning VATS would be appreciated.
Thanks guys
------------------
-Bill
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Boston Chapter
91Z28, (in progress) 3.8L, TE63-1 turbo, MSD50lb injectors, Hemco upper, ported TTA heads, 62MM TB, Red's XP fuel pump, 3.73s, vigilante (stall to be determined)
Thanks guys
------------------
-Bill
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Boston Chapter
91Z28, (in progress) 3.8L, TE63-1 turbo, MSD50lb injectors, Hemco upper, ported TTA heads, 62MM TB, Red's XP fuel pump, 3.73s, vigilante (stall to be determined)
Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 5,183
Likes: 42
From: Oakdale, Ca
Car: 89 IrocZ
Engine: L98-ish
Transmission: 700R4
I'm not versed well enough to really explain it...but if when you stick the key in the ignition and turn it to start, and the correct key resistance is not read, the VATs module will not let the starter enable relay (thing they changed) energize.
If this is the case, then a VATs code will set in the ECM..retrieve the codes through the ALDL. It may be a worn key, worn key cylinder, or bad module as well, or a wiring issue in the circuit.
Check for codes first...
><><><><><><><><><>
BTW, if no codes are set, look into the neutral safety switch circuit.
[This message has been edited by 8Mike9 (edited September 14, 2000).]
If this is the case, then a VATs code will set in the ECM..retrieve the codes through the ALDL. It may be a worn key, worn key cylinder, or bad module as well, or a wiring issue in the circuit.
Check for codes first...
><><><><><><><><><>
BTW, if no codes are set, look into the neutral safety switch circuit.
[This message has been edited by 8Mike9 (edited September 14, 2000).]
Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 461
Likes: 0
From: Warrenton, VA U.S.A.
Bill,
I too have a 91 Z28.
The ignition key has a tiny resistor imbedded in it (that's what that black plastic rectangle is with a metal strip about 1/8" long). You can take an ohmmeter and see what the resistance of that resistor is by touching the probe to both sides of the metal inside the black rectangle mentioned above. I think GM calls it a "pellet". I measured 1.245K ohms (1245 ohms) resistance in my ignition key (resistance is not correct because I don't want to post the true value - making it easier for someone to steal my car).
When you insert the ignition key in the ignition, there are two contacts that connect to those two metal points on the "pellet", to "read" the resistance. If one or both of those two contacts do not make a good connection to the pellet, it won't allow starting the car. I haven't tried it myself, but I read it elsewhere (here I think), if you can reach inside the ignition cylinder (I don't know how easy/hard it is to access the contacts inside the cylinder) with a pick (like a dental probe, etc.), and bend or pull the contact(s) so it'll make better contact, that might solve your problem without having to buy/replace the cylinder (if in fact thats what the problem is!).
There are only two wires that run from the ignition cylinder to the VATS circuit. (Well, actually four wires, the other two simply detect when a key is in the cylinder to sound a buzzer when the door is open and a key is in, but, if memory serves, the other two for the VATS are permanently connected inside the cylinder, whereas the other for "key in" is only a set of contacts that connect to the cylinder outside the cylinder through a slide-in assembly). The VATS only wants to see the correct resistance across those two wires to enable the starter relay. I could just put the proper resistor across those two wires to eliminate the need for the special (read "expensive") GM key (of course, you'd also lose the security benifits too.
Just try to manipulate those contacts inside the ignition cylinder so it makes good contact with the pellet in the ignition key.
Since those contacts are used every time the key in inserted, that would be my first guess as to the problem because of wear. Why it worked after having the module replaced, I don't know. But since you stated that you could get it to work after fiddling with it 20-100 times, that would suggest to me that it was the contacts described above, as opposed to an electronic circuit.
[This message has been edited by Stuart Moss (edited September 14, 2000).]
I too have a 91 Z28.
The ignition key has a tiny resistor imbedded in it (that's what that black plastic rectangle is with a metal strip about 1/8" long). You can take an ohmmeter and see what the resistance of that resistor is by touching the probe to both sides of the metal inside the black rectangle mentioned above. I think GM calls it a "pellet". I measured 1.245K ohms (1245 ohms) resistance in my ignition key (resistance is not correct because I don't want to post the true value - making it easier for someone to steal my car).
When you insert the ignition key in the ignition, there are two contacts that connect to those two metal points on the "pellet", to "read" the resistance. If one or both of those two contacts do not make a good connection to the pellet, it won't allow starting the car. I haven't tried it myself, but I read it elsewhere (here I think), if you can reach inside the ignition cylinder (I don't know how easy/hard it is to access the contacts inside the cylinder) with a pick (like a dental probe, etc.), and bend or pull the contact(s) so it'll make better contact, that might solve your problem without having to buy/replace the cylinder (if in fact thats what the problem is!).
There are only two wires that run from the ignition cylinder to the VATS circuit. (Well, actually four wires, the other two simply detect when a key is in the cylinder to sound a buzzer when the door is open and a key is in, but, if memory serves, the other two for the VATS are permanently connected inside the cylinder, whereas the other for "key in" is only a set of contacts that connect to the cylinder outside the cylinder through a slide-in assembly). The VATS only wants to see the correct resistance across those two wires to enable the starter relay. I could just put the proper resistor across those two wires to eliminate the need for the special (read "expensive") GM key (of course, you'd also lose the security benifits too.
Just try to manipulate those contacts inside the ignition cylinder so it makes good contact with the pellet in the ignition key.
Since those contacts are used every time the key in inserted, that would be my first guess as to the problem because of wear. Why it worked after having the module replaced, I don't know. But since you stated that you could get it to work after fiddling with it 20-100 times, that would suggest to me that it was the contacts described above, as opposed to an electronic circuit.
[This message has been edited by Stuart Moss (edited September 14, 2000).]
Member
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
From: Allentown, PA
ok, before you deside to bypass VATS all together give this a try.
When my VATS system was pissing me off I took a thick sowing needle and stuck it behind the prongs on the ignition collum. From there pull on the needle so it bends the prongs as far out as they can. I mean bend them. The sowing needle will bend a little from it, but so what. Once both sides are done give her a crank and viola. Turn her off then test again. I did that about a month or two ago and have since only tripped my VATS sensor once.
BTW to prolong the prongs from bending in insert the key all the way and turn the ignition column from the outer ring. Do not grab the key. I know that's what the mechanics did when they installed my clutch. Once you get the hang of it you almost never will trip the VATS sensor again.
------------------
My car is the perfect women. She's braless, won't talk back and loves a good beating.
1989 Camaro RS L03 w/ WC T-5
http://350.StreetRacing.org
ICQ: 61342629 AOL IM: BlackSunshineZ28
When my VATS system was pissing me off I took a thick sowing needle and stuck it behind the prongs on the ignition collum. From there pull on the needle so it bends the prongs as far out as they can. I mean bend them. The sowing needle will bend a little from it, but so what. Once both sides are done give her a crank and viola. Turn her off then test again. I did that about a month or two ago and have since only tripped my VATS sensor once.
BTW to prolong the prongs from bending in insert the key all the way and turn the ignition column from the outer ring. Do not grab the key. I know that's what the mechanics did when they installed my clutch. Once you get the hang of it you almost never will trip the VATS sensor again.
------------------
My car is the perfect women. She's braless, won't talk back and loves a good beating.
1989 Camaro RS L03 w/ WC T-5
http://350.StreetRacing.org
ICQ: 61342629 AOL IM: BlackSunshineZ28
Guest
Posts: n/a
So there are four wires, two for resistance, 2 for the chime, do they all go to the relay in the kick panel? if so, if I get a reading of resistance from my key, how do I wire in a resistor to bypass the system for time being. I won't have VATS when my engine swap is completed so this is only temporary.
Thanks in advance
------------------
-Bill
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Boston Chapter
91Z28, (in progress) 3.8L, TE63-1 turbo, MSD50lb injectors, Hemco upper, ported TTA heads, 62MM TB, Red's XP fuel pump, 3.73s, vigilante (stall to be determined)
Thanks in advance
------------------
-Bill
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Boston Chapter
91Z28, (in progress) 3.8L, TE63-1 turbo, MSD50lb injectors, Hemco upper, ported TTA heads, 62MM TB, Red's XP fuel pump, 3.73s, vigilante (stall to be determined)
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yeah, the usual lights came on, check engine light, airbag light blinked like it should, everything works. Battery is new, starter is brand new, I'm talking like Monday new, VATS relay new, so i'm thinking must be the pintels in the cylinder not hitting the key. When I get home I will try to bend them out.
------------------
-Bill
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Boston Chapter
91Z28, (in progress) 3.8L, TE63-1 turbo, MSD50lb injectors, Hemco upper, ported TTA heads, 62MM TB, Red's XP fuel pump, 3.73s, vigilante (stall to be determined)
------------------
-Bill
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Boston Chapter
91Z28, (in progress) 3.8L, TE63-1 turbo, MSD50lb injectors, Hemco upper, ported TTA heads, 62MM TB, Red's XP fuel pump, 3.73s, vigilante (stall to be determined)
Trending Topics
Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 461
Likes: 0
From: Warrenton, VA U.S.A.
Bill,
I would imagine that you would have remove at least one of the wires from the ignition cylinder (to keep any resistance from this point from interfering with the resistor) to the VATS module. For a 1991 Camaro, I show a white/black and purple/white wire from the cylinder. (The purple/white wire is grounded inside the VATS module). Get a resistor (1/4 watt is fine) for whatever value you measured (or as close to this value). I don't know the range of resistance the VATS will allow to work, but you'll have to experiment. You may have to put several resistors in parallel and/or series. The resistor(s) will connect to the two wires mentioned above. Two resistors of the same value connected in parallel will be halved (600 and 600 ohm equals 300 ohms total). (If the resistors are of unequal value, it's another method - ask if you need it). Two resistors (of any value) connected in series will add their value (600 and 900 equals 1500, or 1.5K ohms total resistance).
An easier way may be to get a 2K potientiometer (presuming the value you measured was less than 2K ohm). A 10-turn potientiometer would make adjustment easier. Look at www.digikey.com (they're my favorite source of good quality electronic parts) ($5 handling charge for orders < $25).
Easier yet, just grounding two wires at the VATS module will do the same thing. Just ground the starter relay coil (black/yellow wire to A3 at the VATS module) and the "cranking fuel enable input" from the ECM (dark blue to A2 at the VATS module). Grounding those two wires will do mechanically what the VATS module will do electronically when it detects the proper resistance.
If you're looking for a ground wire close by, it's the black/white wire (B1 at the VATS module).
If you can bend those "fingers", I really think that that'll solve your problems.
Have fun.
[This message has been edited by Stuart Moss (edited September 14, 2000).]
I would imagine that you would have remove at least one of the wires from the ignition cylinder (to keep any resistance from this point from interfering with the resistor) to the VATS module. For a 1991 Camaro, I show a white/black and purple/white wire from the cylinder. (The purple/white wire is grounded inside the VATS module). Get a resistor (1/4 watt is fine) for whatever value you measured (or as close to this value). I don't know the range of resistance the VATS will allow to work, but you'll have to experiment. You may have to put several resistors in parallel and/or series. The resistor(s) will connect to the two wires mentioned above. Two resistors of the same value connected in parallel will be halved (600 and 600 ohm equals 300 ohms total). (If the resistors are of unequal value, it's another method - ask if you need it). Two resistors (of any value) connected in series will add their value (600 and 900 equals 1500, or 1.5K ohms total resistance).
An easier way may be to get a 2K potientiometer (presuming the value you measured was less than 2K ohm). A 10-turn potientiometer would make adjustment easier. Look at www.digikey.com (they're my favorite source of good quality electronic parts) ($5 handling charge for orders < $25).
Easier yet, just grounding two wires at the VATS module will do the same thing. Just ground the starter relay coil (black/yellow wire to A3 at the VATS module) and the "cranking fuel enable input" from the ECM (dark blue to A2 at the VATS module). Grounding those two wires will do mechanically what the VATS module will do electronically when it detects the proper resistance.
If you're looking for a ground wire close by, it's the black/white wire (B1 at the VATS module).
If you can bend those "fingers", I really think that that'll solve your problems.
Have fun.
[This message has been edited by Stuart Moss (edited September 14, 2000).]
Member
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 244
Likes: 1
From: Illinois
Bill
I just went through this on my 88 GTA.
First, read the tech article on this web site on how to disable VATS.
Next, check your codes... code 44 is VATS system error.
Next, although advice has been given to you by others on what the color codes of the 2 VATS wires are from the steering column, be aware my GM shop manual indicated color codes that were WRONG. The correct wire color codes were what was described in the tech article, at least in my case.
The majority of the time, its the lock cylinder leads that cause the problem, so doing what they say in the tech article is required. That means the ECM is looking for your key resistance.
When you measure your key resistance, it will probably be in 1000's of ohms, like 1.4K. They had the exact resistor at Radio Shack. When you meausre the resistor, it may not be exact, for example 1.38K. This is close enough to work, the system isn't looking for resistance down to the last ohm.
That tech article I mentioned also describes the best way to splice in. However, as a trial run, simply disconnect the lead as described & temporarily hold the resistor leads to wires going to the harness (ECM), not to the ignition lock. The car should start.
Regards, FJK
I just went through this on my 88 GTA.
First, read the tech article on this web site on how to disable VATS.
Next, check your codes... code 44 is VATS system error.
Next, although advice has been given to you by others on what the color codes of the 2 VATS wires are from the steering column, be aware my GM shop manual indicated color codes that were WRONG. The correct wire color codes were what was described in the tech article, at least in my case.
The majority of the time, its the lock cylinder leads that cause the problem, so doing what they say in the tech article is required. That means the ECM is looking for your key resistance.
When you measure your key resistance, it will probably be in 1000's of ohms, like 1.4K. They had the exact resistor at Radio Shack. When you meausre the resistor, it may not be exact, for example 1.38K. This is close enough to work, the system isn't looking for resistance down to the last ohm.
That tech article I mentioned also describes the best way to splice in. However, as a trial run, simply disconnect the lead as described & temporarily hold the resistor leads to wires going to the harness (ECM), not to the ignition lock. The car should start.
Regards, FJK
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
