Hello all. As you probably have seen, gas prices are climbing out of control. I noticed here in town that we have a place that sells ethanol. I did some research on the product and aparently it is made from recycled corn oil. Also it aparently burns hotter and cleaner then gasoline...and well its 10 cents cheaper. I was wonderig if any of you are running this type of fuel in your car...or if you would recomend it. I am thinking of mixing half and half (Ethenol and gasoline) to see what would happen but before I do so I would like some input. Thanks

 

Ethanol is a gasoline/alcohol blend already, I believe. Mixing them like you're talking about probably won't hurt anything except maybe your pocketbook.

Don't know if it's still true or not, but many years ago there was a rumor floating around that putting "Gasahol" in an older car would loosen deposits in your tank and fuel lines and plug things up. But I believe that was in reference to the leaded gas we all used way back then, probably doesn't apply since everything is unleaded these days.

 

Ethanol is an alcohol. It's the same chemical that gets you drunk. It's the next-to-the-lightest alcohol; of all the alcohols, only methanol is a smaller molecule.

It has the same problem(s) as methanol, except not quite as extreme. Its molecule contains oxygen, so the mixture it requires is different, specifically more ethanol is required per unit of air to burn completely; its heat content, by volume, is not as high as gasoline, so you have to burn more gallons to make the same power; and it has the same affinity for moisture, and therefore the corrosive properties, that methanol has.

People have been running mixtures of ethanol and gasoline for years now. In alot of places, that's all "premium" gas is.... regular gas with about 10% ethanol mixed in. That's one of the reasons that "premium" gas has a lower heat content (energy production value) than regular. So I suppose alot of people on this board, especially the more easily impressionable and less informed among us who fall for the "premium" marketing gimmick, are experimenting with it right now whether they know it or not.

But, it's something we can make cheaply from surplus grain (not grain oil incidentally), and decrease our dependency on petroleum. Looking at the world political situation right now, probably anything we can do to move away from petroleum consumption is a good thing.

 

What about hydrogen?

http://www.unitednuclear.com/h2.htm

While this seem to work fine on the car itself, refueling is the big issue.
From what I've been able to find out, hydrogen generation using solar power is too weak(and too expensive) and using electricity of the grid will be the equivalent of paying 2.1$/gallon, atleast using the same electricity prices as what I have here.
For a US citizen thats not a good option, but for me it'd be pretty sweet since I pay 5.35$ a gallon

 

THe problem with hydrogen is that currently, it takes more energy to produce it, than you get out of it..... and since that energy comes in the form of electricity, which is often produced by burning fossil fuels, it offers no relief from dependence on oil..... yet. Maybe someday, but not today.

 

Oh yes, I am perfectly aware of that, it means it won't be usefull on a large scale, but for the occasional person here and there it can be usefull...

It's not really a problem that it's a net-loss process since it's still cheaper than gas over here, but if they'd come up with some more effective solar cells it'd be different, then it'd be possible to generate hydrogen for almost no cost at all + the initial cost for the equipment.

For I've read somewhere that for 44kWh of electricity you get 39kWh worth of hydrogen, or 1kg(the chemical potential energy of hydrogen is 142MJ* per kilogram, it is 44MJ* for gasoline), this is using electrolysis.
I've heard they're develop other more effective methods though.

The equipment from this company is complete, you get the car converted and a conversion station to have at home wich you can plug to a solar, wind or wall outlet.

*Megajoule

 

This is kinda realted but yet not. I drive my work truck all around the state doing jobs so one of the things I do for fun is keep tabs on my average mpg. This Ford has never been what one would call economical by any means, my best to date so far is 12mpg. I used to run ethanol becasue as noted it was on average $.10 cheaper than 87 octane. But after doing numerious A-B-A testing over the years I know one thing for certain. I get even less mpg with ethanol over 87 octane. My front tank usually carries me 145 miles before I have to switch to the rear tank. On every occasion I had ethanol it went down to 122-130mi per tank. Again it did vary some because of terrain, load,etc..but as a whole I did lose fuel economy. It's been a 142,000mi in 4 years testing thing on this truck so it's not like I did 1 tank and called it bad. This is numerious testing over the years and the results have never varied, always shows less with corn!! It did take a few times for this to sink in what was happening and causeing less mileage, but once I was able to put 2 & 2 together it was clear as day.

 

Well the energy density of ethanol is only about 55%-60% of that of gasoline.

 

WOW HisDivineShadow That was a great link. Once that mod becomes a working module then I definately plan on converting the TransAm and the tempo over to a hydrogen based engine. For now though it seems that its still in the experimental stages.

 

The thing I like best about it is that it will run seamlessly on both so one doesn't have to commit purely to hydrogen.
Also I believe hydrogen will burn better since it's naturally a gas unlike petrol(more efficient combustion), and has more than twice the CPE* of petrol.
According to the site they have their facilities 75% complete and they are aiming at a retail price of 5000$ for the entire package, I might get this if it turns out well, I'll wait a year or two yet though.


*Chemical Potential Energy

 

not true its about 80%

 

Here are some common questions and answers for ethanol.

Ethanol Myths - Iowa Corn

 

I mentioned this in another post.......the area I live in has one of the biggest producing ethanol plants in the country and the cost of E85 at most of the stations around here is now the same as 87 octane unleaded because they cannot keep up with the demand so given the reduced gas milage you get with E85 it would be more expensive to run it at this point. Also E85 is a blend of 85% ethanol and 15% unleaded gasoline.

 

another reson that ethonol prices are high is that a lot of it is IMPORTED to make up for the demand which is STUPID because the government pays farmers NOT to grow corn and other crops to keep the prices up so they can make money. Time to get those farms back up and running and stop importing everything we use for fuel into this country.

 

You will see higher fuel prices because of the ethanol. Since our elected officials mandated that all fuel be 10% ethanol May 1st without concern of domestic production capability, transport costs (not enough rail cars or trucks) and reduced fuel milage. Your mileage and performance will decrease. Keep a fuel filter on hand, the ethanol will free the sediment in older gas tanks and clog the fuel filter.

What to do now? Write to them and let them know you will vote them out of office. Bunch of bums concerned only with their power base and mantaining same.

Look how long it took to get rid of mtbe. Oh...the ethanol blend will increase emissions....wonder who got paid off? Wonder where ADM is in all this?

 

Problem is that the increase of production of corn is still controlled by the goverment. Most high yield farms are owned by the government. We would still be at their mercy.

 

I live in Central Illinois (farm land gallore), second only to Iowa in annual corn production, and highest production of ethanol in the US.

There isn't one farm in this area that's either controlled by or owned by the government.

Where did you get this information?

 

Are you sure the government has no influence on corn production? Why would we be importing corn if we can so easily grow it here. Dont let me get into how many farms are being closed down to make way for developments. Sorry but when your family sells one of the largest farms in New Jersey and sell it to big business men who would rather sell the land for developments then maybe you can tell me different. The townships are strong arming the farmers to sell their land so they can let the business men build there developments. Grants and funding for farms do derive from government programs.

http://www.ewg.org/farm/regionsummary.php?fips=00000

 

Government Grants and Subsidies are a lot different than "controlled". Don't get them confused, and is also the word you used.

Besides, what does this have to do with ethanol?

 

Control can be passive. Also it has plenty to do with it because do you think the government would allow them to lose money on our dependency of crude oil consumption. Farms are very dependent on the help they get from subsidaries. Something the gorvernment can choose to withhold. For instance when my families farm was sold it was very pressured by the township what she had to do with the farm or risk taking a hit and losing alot of money.

 

this has to do with ethanol because the government pays some farmers NOT to grow corn so that the prices of corn dont sink into the basement because of a surplus and farmers dont go broke. if ethanol can be used from the surplus of corn, the farmes can grow, make money, fgood corn prices can stay the same and the goverment doesnt have to pay peoiple anymore so evryone wins