Dauntless

how is it that someone can build a car to put out 400HP and still get over 20mpg? i'd be happy to crank out 300HP n/a and get 20mpg. i'm kinda thinking about building an engine strong enough to hold a supercharger of some kind and maybe 200HP of nitrous. that's the only good thing about ricers. they can beat camaros and mustangs and still get better mileage than us. anybody got a built up daily driver?

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1984 Z-28, 305HO 4bbl, t-tops, K&N, Flowmaster 80 Series with 3" tips. Planning a massive modfest. It's gonna be one gangsta of a street demon.

redbird_400

Did you just say a rice can kick a <u>Camaro's</u> a$$?
If you like them so much why don't you but oneż

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89 Formula Firebird
Red with T-tops
5.0 305 FI
Soon to be a 400sb or 350.

Mark A Shields

Some of it has to do with your setup. Matching parts together such as your TC and gears along with your power band. How you drive, such as heavy or light foot. Having TPI will get you better mpg than carburetor. With that people invoke something in the ECM, highway mode or something I forget what it's called that helps mpg.

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"Putting any amount of money into a RICE BURNER is like wiping your a$$ with a turd. "
'86 IROC
T-TOPS, TINTED WINDOWS, BRAKE LIGHT BLACKOUTS
GM GOODWRENCH 350
EDELBROCK TES HEADERS
3" Hooker CatBack w/Aero Chamber muffler
EDELBROCK 600CFM CARB.
KN AIRFILTER
ACCEL HEI DISTRIBUTOR
160* Stat, just switched to 180* b/c of winter coming and going to college in the mts.
3:73 Posi
Rebuilt 700R4
B&M Megashifter, 5" Autometer Tach w/shift lite

redbird_400

<FONT SIZE="+2"><FONT COLOR="RED">!!IM GOING TO EAT YOU!!</FONT></FONT>


What does rice have on this??żż

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89 Formula Firebird
Red with T-tops
5.0 305 FI
Soon to be a 400sb or 350.

[This message has been edited by redbird_400 (edited November 12, 2001).]

89 CamaroIROCZ

WOW! that car is insane.

A couple of cool things i noticed is the size of his oil pan and the fabricated cross member on that pig. Also the SFC's and the pure amount of rubber on those back slicks. I wonder what he had to do to hog that out like that. Quite an impressive car man

Matt

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89 Camaro IROC
350" GM Crate Motor
278/290 .476/.494,
3000 Lockup Converter,
..plenty more
Harwood 2" Cowl

UNITED WE STAND

redbird_400

Can you imagine how loud this beast isż



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89 Formula Firebird
Red with T-tops
5.0 305 FI
Soon to be a 400sb or 350.

BitchinCamaro

When you don't mod the engine and make all your horsepower with stickers, of course you keep your good gas milage. But good luck finding a 4 cly running 12s or 13s that stills gets that government rated 35 mpg.

F-BIRD'88

Yes you can build a 400 hp small block and still get good gas mileage. The secret is
use street ported, good breathing cylinder heads of moderate port volume. Use just enough camshaft to do the job. A carefully selected mild HYD roller is nice but A good hyd will work too. Use a street type Dual plane intake or direct port EFI like TPI. Any of the popular 4 bbl carbs will work but will require you fine tune the primary side for best air/fuel ratio. A free flowing Exhaust/header system is required. Maximize the compression ratio for the available fuel octane. A moderate 3.xx rear ratio with overdrive and a mild 2200 stall lock up converter will get decent cruising mileage while giving good performance. A 5 speed manual needs less power to turn at hy-way speeds and should be concidered. A small nitrous system will take care of any 450/500hp cars you're likely to encounter.

Dauntless

Alright. Thanks for the info. In answer to a question, I don't want a rice. But their light bodies do give them an advantage. I take this into consideration b/c I want to build a daily driver that can still stomp some cars. There are some ricers around here that have been carefully built and are beating Camaros, Stangs, and Stingrays. They are quite a threat to our way of life, and they must be stopped.

F-BIRD'88: what you said-could that apply to my 305 4bbl in some respect? maybe not as high a horsepower rate as you mentioned, but something within that respect?

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1984 Z-28, 305HO 4bbl, t-tops, K&N, Flowmaster 80 Series with 3" tips. Planning a massive modfest. It's gonna be one gangsta of a street demon.

[This message has been edited by Dauntless (edited November 12, 2001).]

Tom 400 CFI

I have >300 hp and I get 25 mpg on the highway. I belive the key is big overdrive/lowend torque, low friction, and accuarate A/F ratio.

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'83 Trans Am: 400 CID oil burning junkyard long block, 224/234 crane cam, Summit aluminum roller rockers, hand ported intake, home bored 2.09" (53mm) throttle bodies, MSD 454 injectors(75 lb/hr), Holley 255LPH fuel pump, custum modded FPR, Edelbrock TES headers, SLP 3" stainless steel cat back, stock ECM & chip. Borg/Warner T-5 World Class, 12" Corvette rotors and clipers, GTA 16" wheels, South Side Machine subframe connectors, 1LE sway bars, 3.45 ring and pinion, Alpine sound.
Best E.T. 13.257
Best MPH 105.24

92blackbird

Hot Rod magazine had a story a couple of months ago about cars that ran quicker than 12 sec. quarters and got over 20mpg. Only one of them was a rice burner. All the others were Detroit iron. I'll find the month if anybody is interested. One was a Neon though. It was running 10's. That is a great shot of that Camaro. There are a lot pics. like that at NHRA.com. check them out.

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'92 firebird t-tops
305tbi,670cfm tbi, 2 1/2" Dynomax catback, 9x3 K&N open element

berlinetta85

The trick is what my friend did. Bullet proof the engine with strong powerful parts and a fat a$$ 20 pound bottle of N2O in the back seat. Can you say instant rice? Now thats some fast cook'n! Lets not forget his custom plates....

RICE ETR

bzznczzn

LS1's put down 300 at the wheels and can get close to 30mpg. It's all the set up. The lighter engine and rotating mass cut back on power loss and makes it more efficient, they have a great fuel injection system and it doesn't hurt to have a 6 speed. It can easily be done, especially if you can slap a 6-speed in your car and run a very good FI system.

F-BIRD'88

Dauntless: 400hp out of a 305 is quite possible but it wouldn't be too good on gas.
Mostly because of the hi rpm it would have to be tuned to.(single plane intake, long duration cam) This would require a high rear gear ratio and a high stall converter because
of the lack of bottom end torque.
The way to get high horse power (400) and good mileage together on a small motor like a 305 is intercooled turbocharging. Allows
high torque low rpm tuning for efficient cruising while the turbo will kick in for full throttle power.

Dauntless

i'm quite interested in turbo/supercharging the engine. however, i'd like the engine to put out a little power by n/a and still be kinda easy on the gas, that is, as long as my foot is easy on the throttle. i'd kinda wanna go for a supercharger though. OR, perhaps, i could do my n/a power for the takeoff and use the turbo for top end. yea, that sounds good. anybody make turbo kits for carbed engines? thanks for all the replies.

i just thought of something. there's a LT1/LS1 salvage yard not too far from my house. could i take a salvaged LS1 and tranny (if i need it; i've got a 700R4 right now) and switch the intake setup for a carb? or is the fuel injection the only reason it gets good mileage? i've read about TPI to carb swaps and claim to gain a load of power and lose only a little bit of mileage (1-3mpg?). or would it be cheaper to build a 5.7L like an LS1 except carb it instead of FI? just a thought.

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1984 Z-28, 305HO 4bbl, t-tops, K&N, Flowmaster 80 Series with 3" tips. Planning a massive modfest. It's gonna be one gangsta of a street demon.

[This message has been edited by Dauntless (edited November 12, 2001).]

Dauntless

anybody have anything to say about that carbed LS1 idea? also, any specific turbos to use on thirdgens? any conflicts with the installation?

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1984 Z-28, 305HO 4bbl, t-tops, K&N, Flowmaster 80 Series with 3" tips. Planning a massive modfest. It's gonna be one gangsta of a street demon.

bzznczzn

As far as I know, there is no way to carb an LS1, because it is a completely new and non interchangable engine. No other chevy small block ever made before the LS1 is capatable with it, everything is different.

Also, there really is no need to carb it. The LS1 intake is very efficient, it was actually made to handle quite a bit more power than what they already have. There is also an LS6 manifold that you can get a little extra HP out of. Those LS1's are dynoing 300+ at the rear wheels and get stronger as they fully break in. An LS1 in a third gen would really fly, cause the 4th gen's are hitting high 12's, sometimes completely stock.

The LS1 is a great motor. If you can slap one with a 6 speed in your car, you'll have the best of both worlds.

Beast5spdGTA

To get good gas milage you need fuel injection and highway rear end gears(3.42 or less)/or good overdrive(ie .5 6th gear), but the biggest thing you need is a light right foot(very light), My friend has a honda civic w/ a stock internal GSR 1.8l engine. He runs low 14s at 97mph, he also gets usually in the mid to high teens(14-18mpg) for MPG around town. Why? B/c he floors it all the time rpms in the 7000+ range alot. On the highway he can get 30 mpg. Peak hp requires(basically) the same amount of fuel no matter what size engine as does exhaust requirements, imports get better fuel milage b/c at lower rpms and not WOT they require much less fuel to keep their engines happy(along with better than late 80s FI technology). You see what I'm saying a 5.7L 400hp engine requires the same fuel as a 1.8L turbo 400hp engine, or a rev happy 3.0L N/A 400 hp engine(the latter two sleightly less to frictional/rotational losses).

As for Redbird_400, There are plenty of imports that will give your car a spanking, I can think of at least 10 locally easy. Hell if it's an auto, there are plenty that can beat you in factory stock condition. Learn about the enemy before you talk sh*t, imports hate ricers as well, if you can't make a distinction between imports and ricers, you will get embarrassed regularly.

I know of 2 very stock looking(besides front mount intercooler) DSM(eclipses/talons) around here, one runs mid 12s, the other high 11s, virtually completely stock looking, regualar tires(see good traction on the street with AWD). I don't think I would want an import, but I do respect them, since many are faster than my car.

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14.62@96mph headers, muffler, chip, ghetto stuff, duct tape
89 GTA 305 TPI 5 speed 3.42 gears

85 Berl

You could probably make a custom intake and use a crank trigger ignition to make a carb work, but I wouldn't even try it. They are very strong and efficient in stock form, and it may not be very happy having 10:1 or higher compression without the computer.

Dauntless

I'm kinda liking the LS1 idea though. If I got a salvaged engine and tranny (hopefully in good condition), what other install things would I need. take the diferential too? i remember reading that something would need to be done to the gas tank though. could i expect the same rwhp as opposed to a new Z w/ LS1? i know nothing about the weight of the new ones compared to our ThirdGens.

im still considering building an engine. might just wanna throw on a mild head/cam combo and a new intake on my existing engine, then throw on a vortech supercharger and what not. i could probably get some decent power out of that 305 and hopefully it wont kill my mileage. i've read on the internet that someone makes a book to get more efficiency/mileage out of a carb by adding on some special components. it uses some kind of technology similar to the throttle bodies. http://www.eagle-research.com/fuelsav/elcarbnh.html is the site. anybody use/heard of this? if you look around about that product, they claim some nice mileage increases. i'll probly do that before I do any serious modding and see how it works. if it works fine, i'll proceed w/ the modding. be getting more power and mileage! gangsta.

thanks for mentioning a difference b/w ricers and imports. i guess i over looked that factor. that does suck that ricers w/ stock power 4cyl can overcome the older V8s. the light weight does give them an advantage, but we alone carry the thunder.

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1984 Z-28, 305HO 4bbl, t-tops, K&N, Flowmaster 80 Series with 3" tips. Planning a massive modfest. It's gonna be one gangsta of a street demon.

giovanhalen

Good gas mileage doesn't mean much if you spent a fortune on the car. Get an old 4cyl to drive around and build a V8 car for drag racing.

E-Z Rollin

You can build a 302 sbc that puts out 550 hp gets 25 mpg and is very streetable. Sounds like I've lost my mind? Granted it isn't cheap,as I recall it had a super charger,fuelinjection,five speed and was in of all things a 64 malibu.I dont think I still have the mag. but maybe someone else recalls the article,was HPC or HR i believe.

LottaBallsCamaro

A completely forged bottom end with a mild cam, and about 250hp worth of nitrous would ya a good bit.

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You have walked onto the biggest baddest dog porch and you will be dealt with accordingly.

I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct!

Dauntless

i sure hope someone recognizes this. if not, that's cool too. i'm thinking about swapping my tranny for a 5-speed, and i'm still researching superchargers. but if i got a mild cam/head combo and that carb enhancer, the mileage may not be that bad. i've considered buying another car and building this one for racing, but the car is just too much fun to take it off the street. i dont know, i guess it's just something about cruising on a nice warm day w/ the t-tops off that really lets you appreciate that i got my thirdgen.



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1984 Z-28, 305HO 4bbl, t-tops, K&N, Flowmaster 80 Series with 3" tips. Planning a massive modfest. It's gonna be one gangsta of a street demon.

SSC

I have a 400+ daily driver"N/A" truck and let me tell you theres no way to get 20 MPG, N/A.
My camaro is close to 400hp and is currently my wifes DD, she avarages 15mpg in that 13 sec ride.

There is a guy that put a 144 power charger on his 383 and claims to get 17mpg and is aroud 480hp.
SSC

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85 Camaro, 355/400 "drag car" in moth ***** 13.1@ 101mph on its last season run.
Plans: Possibly add N20 for next season.
82 Firbird, getting a beef injection 355/700r4 3:42 powertrax system.

mcconahay37

iTrader: (3)

NA means naturally aspirated: No forced induction. So no turbos or superchargers, and no nitrous. You can have one or the other. Any turbo systems will have to be fabricated by you and will take a LOT of research. For superchargers, you're limited to roots or whipple-type blowers, but I don't think you'll get the mileage you want out of those.

The reason fuel injection results in good gas mileage is because it is an accurate and precise control of fuel and timing that produce more efficiency. If you elect to go LS1 or LT1, you'd want to get all teh computer controls and wiring to work the fuel injection properly. An LS1 also has different motor mounts and will require more fabrication. The LT1 swap is muche asier, and there is plenty of info if you search the motor swap board. It's not a job that will be done quickly.

To get 400 hp and come close to your 20 mpg goal, a 350 or 383 will be neccessary. A holley double pumper will help power and throttle response but hurt mpg pretty hard. You'll need probably 3.42 gears in the back if you go with a 700R4 or 200R4. Ideally, you could put a T56 in and use it's double overdrive to your advantage. Then, you could probably run 3.73 gears. You'll have to tune the engine properly also. There's a whole lot more involved. Keep researching.

Dauntless

thanks for the ideas. i am aware that n/a means no forced induction. i simply meant that i could build an engine to put out a lot of torque at low end and the turbo would help out w/ the top end. but are you saying that the LT1 swap would be a lot easier? how so, if you can give me details. i'd wanna rebild the used engine just to be sure that it won't give me crap. but, i guess, it would probly be easier on my part if i rebuilt the existing 305, and would save the mileage a little better to i believe. anybody know of a mild head/cam combo? i think mild would be the best route as i would later on install a supercharger. i'm kinda interested in the S/R Torquer 305s and the World Products Sportsman IIs. can't really tell a difference. anybody use either of these? know of a mild Comp cam? thanks for all the help so far everyone.

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1984 Z-28, 305HO 4bbl, t-tops, K&N, Flowmaster 80 Series with 3" tips. Planning a massive modfest. It's gonna be one gangsta of a street demon.

mcconahay37

iTrader: (3)

LT1 uses the same motor mounts as your regular sbc. LS1 moved them meaning more fabrication. I think they moved them so the engine sits farther back but I'm not sure. Also, I think the LS1 has a different bellhousing bolt pattern. Not sure about that. Either one you'll need an electric fuel pump. For info on an LT1 swap, do a search on the motor swap board.

mult68

iTrader: (1)

I started using the cruise control regularly...and taking it REALLY easy on the throttle......guess what...I gained 40 more miles out of a tank of gas.....and thats with a couple street races and awhile of letting my friend rev my engine pretty high. I will be putting in a super ram 383 into my car soon.......well be sure to use cruise control and the T-56 double over drive gears so I can get decent gas mileage....so yes....high performance daily drivers can be done. Just take it easy.

Ragin'87

many of my friends drive integras and the like, I don't call them rice b/c they're perfromance enthusiasts, and are well aware that I built a car for under $2400 that would stop their asses in the ground LOL. But they get pretty ****ty city mileage, 16-19, I pull that off in my RS all the time. On the freeway they can get 30-33, I pull between 26 and 30(depends how far over the speed limit I travel.)

if you keep your foot out of it in the city, you can get decent mileage, I wouldn't expect to avg. much above 17mpg w/ that much power. If you had to hop on the highway and make a 300 mile trip, I'd be willing to bet if you kept the speed down you would see some amazing mileage. I got 33mpg in the 87 on the highway once, she was getting just over 10 in the city... It can be done(granted I had nowhere near 400hp, but still.)

Anthony

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previous ride: 87 Camaro LT
350, A4.Comp Cams 268H, Edelbrock Preformer intake, Hedman Headers and y-pipe, gutted cat, No AIR/smog pump. 14x3" Open element K&N, Q-jet w/ D hanger and DA rods, adjusted AV spring tension and quick can.

Current ride: 1992 Camaro RS, K&N, Flowmaster, 305, T5, Black, T-tops, 84k miles.

Ragin'87

many of my friends drive integras and the like, I don't call them rice b/c they're perfromance enthusiasts, and are well aware that I built a car for under $2400 that would stop their asses in the ground LOL. But they get pretty ****ty city mileage, 16-19, I pull that off in my RS all the time. On the freeway they can get 30-33, I pull between 26 and 30(depends how far over the speed limit I travel.)

if you keep your foot out of it in the city, you can get decent mileage, I wouldn't expect to avg. much above 17mpg w/ that much power. If you had to hop on the highway and make a 300 mile trip, I'd be willing to bet if you kept the speed down you would see some amazing mileage. I got 33mpg in the 87 on the highway once, she was getting just over 10 in the city... It can be done(granted I had nowhere near 400hp, but still.)

Anthony

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previous ride: 87 Camaro LT
350, A4.Comp Cams 268H, Edelbrock Preformer intake, Hedman Headers and y-pipe, gutted cat, No AIR/smog pump. 14x3" Open element K&N, Q-jet w/ D hanger and DA rods, adjusted AV spring tension and quick can.

Current ride: 1992 Camaro RS, K&N, Flowmaster, 305, T5, Black, T-tops, 84k miles.

Dauntless

hey mult68, what kind of setup do you have? and did you say 40 extra mpg? or was that a type-o and meant to say 4? either way, it's all good.

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1984 Z-28, 305HO 4bbl, t-tops, K&N, Flowmaster 80 Series with 3" tips. Planning a massive modfest. It's gonna be one gangsta of a street demon.

mcconahay37

iTrader: (3)

He said an extra 40 miles per tank.

Dauntless

right. my bad.

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1984 Z-28, 305HO 4bbl, t-tops, K&N, Flowmaster 80 Series with 3" tips. Planning a massive modfest. It's gonna be one gangsta of a street demon.

gruveb

Dauntless,

Perhaps consider keeping your L69 set up. It is a good set up and will respond nicely to some slight mods, I know, I'm doing them right now.

Consider this, it is almost the last of a now dead breed. Carbed, high compression engines used to be the way that all performance cars were made. By keeping with some of the old technologies(high compression, carb...so on) and some of the new technologies, like Jacob's ignition system, a demon carb, and an appropriate cam (cam technology has really made some incredibly improvements), and of course a nice set of heads, your car can look "old school", sound old school, still get decent milage and stomp butt on 90% of the cars out there. And then when you tell them you're driving an '84 GM product with a 305, well, you'd just have to be there. It's a lot of fun.

When I keep my shift points below 3000 rpm, and keep my foot out of it too much, I get very reasonable gas milage. I drive alot, everyday. I'm not sure of the gas milage exactly, I haven't done the math. But figure this. My grand prix gets about 30 on the highway, and 22 to 23 in town. Driving it daily instead of my camaro, I go through a tank a week. Driving my camaro "effeciently", I go through just slightly over a tank a week. The driving is a 50/50 blend of highway/traffic driving. When I get my foot into the throttle, I'll go through a tank of gas in a day and a half.

You see, any of the set ups listed here can get good gas milage. It's 85% driving style. But you're not going to be producing 300 horsepower while getting good gas milage. To actually be using those 300 horsepower, all of these set ups are NOT friendly to your gas tank.

I'm sticking with my L69 until it dies on me. Then I'm going with a carbed set up on a 400 sbc. Cheap parts, easy to work on, and so on. They are all give and take a little bit, but what you lose in an easy cold start (which I don't have to worry about), you more than make up for in many other areas.

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http://www.gruveb.com/z28