cort351w

Which would you rather have in your daily driven street car? I was thinking along the lines of perfomance (obviously), reliability, gas mileage...

Wolfpack

I've had 2 camaro's and 92 25th anniv with the TBI 305(*** rest its soul and damn the deer that killed it) and my present 86 IROC..and i like the TPI(LB9) much more!! But mainly its the performance thing for me...just my 2cents.

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86 IROC 305 TPI
Gutted Airbox, Modified MAF, Cat Back Exhaust System

Matt87GTA

TBI 305 = LO3
HO carbed 305 = L69

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

gruveb

I'd prefer the L69 because it is simpler to work on, at least to me.

The L69 is also unique. It is kind of the last of the carbed, high compression muscle engines. Not to mention, it is quick.

L69 is a slam dunk to me.

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http://www.gruveb.com/z28

85transamtpi

I have a LB9 and I like it, BUT I would rather have a L69. The cost of modification is much less on the L69. It is possible to ditch the computer on the L69. I hate having my car not run properly because a sensor isnt working properly, but there is nothing wrong with the engine. If you have lots of money a LB9 is great. I like the fact that I can start it with a push of a button from inside my house when its -10* outside . It gets pretty good mileage (when the computer is happy) but so does the L69. TPI does give you a ton of low end torque that feels great on the street, but in reality its not much faster if any than a good L69 because it runs out of breath at 4500. The L69 can spin up pretty high and still make good power.

I'd say its a toss up. Both cars are about equal in performance. It is more a matter of what you like (or have experience with). If you have worked on carb. cars all you life then go with the L69. If you think injection is the way to go, and want to have a cool looking engine go with the LB9. Be prepared to spend some cash if you go with LB9/L98 and you want to do any intake mods.

peace

86Z

iTrader: (4)

or do like me, get an LB9 and dump a carb setup on it

Ed Maher

I can't wait till BadSS shows up and tells us how slow L69 cars are, lol.

It's a toss up really. Stock for stock, i'd prolly take the L69 car, less hassles to worry about and the same performance.
Once you're into mods, it depends. Overall, the L69 will always be cheaper. True you could dump the computer on it, but you could also do that with the LB9 with only the addition of a carb intake anyhow (rememeber the long blocks are the same) The L69 computer is great though, and unless i was building an all out car i would keep it. I mean, it's great having great gas mileage with the ultra efficent qjet primaries being controlled by a feedback computer. And nothing about CCCS can hold you back. If the exact shape of the advance curve concerns you, you can run a regular distributor and still keep closed loop control on the carb by running the tach signal into the dist. reference to the ECM.
TPI is nice and all, and the total control you have in the PROM can be sweet, but it will always cost more $$$ to mod which may be a concern for some.

I've had many CCCS car, my current ride has TPI just because thats it's birth and besides, i have the money and time to play with the injection. I'm looking for a driver and would actually prefer to find a cheap CCCS car to a TPI car, unless the deal on the TPI car is too good to pass on.

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Ed Maher - Moderator @ The TPI & Carb Boards
92 Z28 Convertible - Quasar blue / Tan top
305 TPI A4 2.73 - 14.7 @ 93.6
Stock except ported plenum and dual cats
-=ICON Motorsports=-

- Definitely prototypes, high powered mutants of some kind. Too weird to live, too cool to die

RODS92Z

I had the LB9 in my 92' it was a pile. If your going through all the trouble to find a motor get a L98 or regular 350. I have great power and I get 24-25mpg down the highway.

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1992 Camaro Z-28 custom 25th anniversary, 5.7 TPI auto, 2.73 posi, t-tops, arctic white with 92' medium mettalic gray stripes with black border stripe.

1967 Pontiac Catalina 2 door fastback, 400 v-8, auto, cameo white, dark red interior

1987 Olds Cutlass, 350 Rocket, auto, dark gray/light gray interior

cort351w

Why did you write this?

Also, what is CCCS?

Third thing: I currently have the LB9 and I'm not saying that I'm going to, but I have thought about taking off the tpi and putting a carb on there. How hard is it, what do I gain in terms of rpm, and can I pass emissions? I have visual but no sniffer.

Thanks

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91 formula WS6 305 tpi, T-5, 20,xxx actual miles, Cyclone headers, true dual exhaust with Borla XR-1 oval sportsmans, Moroso Blue Max wires, filtercharged

Alan84TA

I have an L69's in my '84 and '85. I like them... I just like the way a carb "feels" Once you learn where all the dam vacuum lines go they aren't bad to work on. I could put them on blindfolded now...

Matt87GTA

Because Wolfpack had a little misunderstanding about which RPO code referred to which engine from what his post said. He compared an LO3 to an LB9. You were asking about an L69 versus and LB9. Just wanted to set the record straight for ya'll ......

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

85transamtpi

cort,
As Ed said the L69 is a LB9 with a computer controlled carb. I'm not sure about inspection, but I would guess if you ran all the emmisions crap on the carb you should be fine. Maybe this depends on the year of the car.

[This message has been edited by 85transamtpi (edited November 16, 2001).]

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Stock for stock, I like the LB9. More low end torque, better cold weather reliability and better overall adaptability to changing weather conditions. A 5 speed LB5 is faster than a 5 speed L69 too. If you're going to plan on modding it, well I guess that depends on personal preference. I like TPI and although it tends to cost more to mod, I feel that you can take it a lot farther without sacrificing any sort of drivability. 25mpg, 12 second ETs and 17" of vacuum. Let's see how many carbed cars can do it. Sure there's some, but with TPI it's a regular occurance.

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The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
Custom Thirdgen Subwoofer Enclosures
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah

99Hawk120

I'll take the L69 myself.

Since both motors use the same basic block, the difference is in the computer controls and the induction system.

Fact: The L69 intake and computer system is EASIER and CHEAPIER to adapt to a high-powered motor. The same L69 equipment that sat on factory cars from 1984 sits on top of my ZZ4 with very little modification. The money I saved not messing with TPI allowed me to buy a decent drivetrain that will hopefully hold up.

The computer is smart enough to tune part throttle to the motor based on the O2 sensor, but stupid enough to not give a crap what size motor it's on. All it knows is 14.7:1. It doesn't know anything else. If you put the same stuff from a 305 on a 400, the computer will simply adjust the duty cycle to bring the O2 sensor in line. Simple yet elegant.

It completely butts out of the fueling system control in WOT mode. The timing basically goes to a static, pre-programmed curve in WOT as well. The LG4 chip had a weaker timing curve to start with due to its lack of a knock sensor, but that was never an issue with the L69.

Mileage isn't that big a difference either I got better mileage than all the TPI cars at the last gathering I made it to with my car. I was outdone by some of the TBI cars, but most of them ran 17 second quarters (16 if they were lucky, LOL). Most of the modded TPI cars actually got crap mileage (15-16 city). Matter of fact, the only TPI cars I've seen that have gotten good mileage are either bone stock, or owned by someone with a chip burner and the knowledge to use it.

Take all of the above and factor in the cost of the mods on a TPI car to make it in to the 12s... Well, you may be just as fast as me, but I'll have a thicker wallet.

junkyarddog

L69,port&polish the heads,shorty headers,intake. rebuild the Q-jet,tune for performance (Ed Maher has a good tech artical on this) using a vaccume advance distributer and keeping the tach signal connected to the ECM sounds like a great idea too,but the electronic advance works ok for a daily driver. if you have the time,a new cam will bring out the life in this engine....compucam 2030 if I'm not mistaken,a good grind that won't confuse the computer.

all I ever did to mine was install hedmen headers and advance the timing a little,close the EGR plate,never got around to tuning in the carb but it always ran strong and very reliable.

84305HO

Lets supply some real life numbers to this case. Best run in sign was run against Jim85
three posts up. Those are uncorrected numbers
from a low mileage near stock L69. With the addition of headers and a more aggresive launch would have been in the 13's. Also as
99hawk has done I pulled the motor and slipped in a 350ci/350hp crate motor in search of some 12's. Same carb, all electronics still functional, with cheap ($50) used ZZ4 intake.

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Tom K.
84 Z-28 M5 305 L69 HO
pulleys,coil,3:73(stock)
Jet chip, fan switch,
Al dshaft,1.6 rockers,
LCAs and brackets,BFG DRs
14.20 @ 96.74 2.02 60ft
New 350 motor in debug,
no ET yet

[This message has been edited by 84305HO (edited November 19, 2001).]

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I just rebuilt my L69, and I don't regret it.

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-1983 L69 Camaro Z28 305 H.O. (Bored .030 over,Teflon oil seals,Melling H.V. oil pump,Hyperetic pistons,chrome-moly rings,2040 Crane compu-cam) T-tops, 3:73 Open rear, BW T-5, Rebuilt E4ME 4 Barrel, Duel Snorkle Air Cleaner w/K&N Filter , Rhino Clutch, Crane 2040 Compu-cam, LS1 valve springs, porting, PST front end kit. Now for paint, interior, etc...etc.... Also:
2000 S10 4.3L 4WD LS
1995 Ford Thunderchicken, 4.6 V-8

camaro6spd

LB9...TPI...gets great MPG (I have heard of up to 27) and has boat loads of torque....290+ and it look really cool under to hood. And as said before great reliablity. Plus when it is cold and during cold start ups don't carbs tend to "wash" the oil off the cly walls and increase wear.

[This message has been edited by camaro6spd (edited November 21, 2001).]

99Hawk120

I didn't buy a thirdgen-camaro for MPG. If I wanted that, I'd drive A) my Hawk or B) my mom's Jetta TDI. Since we're talking modified here, did you see where I posted that my city MPG was superior to EVERY TPI CAR at the gathering I went to? Even the stock ones? Yes, my highway mileage wasn't that great... my car was also running so rich the ECM was throwing a rich exhaust code!

My ZZ4 has tons of low-end torque too. I don't need any more, it's hard enough to keep the wheels from spinning as is.

Looks... well, maybe. But I don't race photographs and can't admire my pretty engine compartment while I'm driving down the road.

[This message has been edited by 99Hawk120 (edited November 21, 2001).]

Ed Maher

Just to back ron up, do not fall into the common pitfalls of compleining about carb mileage and cold starts.

My 85 with a basic 350 in it would regulary get 25-26 mpg on the highway. My 305 TPI vert barely gets that. Like ron said, in most cases my CCCS would outdo every TPI car in poll posts of gas mileage. BTW, in city driving i still used to get 18-20 average.

As for cold starts and driveability, to say you had problems here is to admit that you are a carb moron. There is no other way to sugar coat it, if you can't set your choke, you simply have no skill and therefore have a completely invalid opinion, it isn't the carbs fault that noone has touched it since it left the factory. NONE of my carb cars have ever had a cold start problem, nor any problems while warming up. This includes all my time up at penn state including plenty of single digit and below temps.

The only problem with CCCS cars is that they are always the most neglected of the species and generally all have bad/maladjusted TPS's coupled with some other minor tweaks. Once you get past that they rule the world. Complete autonomy in WOT fueling and complete mixture control during idle/cruise, with no extra costs or high dollar parts needed.

BadSS

If you want to compare numbers -

305TPI 5-speed - factory fresh 800 miles on the car with ONLY the following minor mods
160 stat and fan switch
adjusted TPS
K&N Filters with the deflectors removed,, air-box NOT gutted
timing bumped
26x8.5 slicks
The car ran a string of 14.00s and one 13.99 at the track before the clutch started letting go. To me that's pretty impressive, that's not a bash on the L69,, that's just a fact. Could a L69 car be just as fast,, maybe, but I doubt it could be done as easily. However, I must admit I'd prefer the L69's CCC system if I were going to do any real modifications the car,, for all the reasons Ed has already mentioned.

cort351w

This should probably be a separate post on the carb board, but what car would you guys recommend for a tpi to carb swap?

Matt87GTA

Well here's my $.02 about the carb versus TPI issue discussed above:

Comparing your mileage with a carbed car that has been properly tuned by someone who understands carbs, and is well maintained, must also be compared to a TPI car that has been well maintained, with a PROM that has been properly tuned by someone who knows PROMs. Otherwise the comparison just isn't valid. And at that point, the EFI car will leave that carbed one in the dust when it comes to driveability, mileage, and performance.......

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1987 GTA L98 MD8
355, TFS Heads, LT4 Hot Cam
My GTA

The Minnesota F-body Club

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

A frontal lobotomy.

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82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car, now w/86 LG4/TH700R4, 2300 stall TC. Ported World 305 heads, Crane PowerMax 2050 cam. ZZ3/4 intake, oil pump, pan & baffle. Accel HEI SuperCoil & module. Hooker 2055 headers, 3" Catco cat & 3" catback w/dual-opposite Flowmaster 80. 2.93 limited slip. Spohn SFCs waiting to be installed. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily year-round driver. Best ET, speed TBD...
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. '66 396, 9.7:1 forged TRWs, Weiand Action+, Holley 750VS w/4150 conversion, GK 270 cam, Magnum rockers, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" Hedders & 3" Warlocks, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & Trans-Scat shift kit, MegaShifter, 3.08 8.2" 10-bolt w/Powertrax, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Idles smooth @ 700 RPM in D. Best 15.02/95.06 @ 5800' Bandimere (corrected 13.93/102.4 @ sea level).

Pony Killer

I'd take an L69, or an LG4 car over any of the fuel injected thirdgens, Infact, I hunted one down.
They are simple to work on, inexpensive to service, Very tunable, Accept modifications very well, including new motors underneath
Very good all year round.

Comparing the CCCS to EFI Cars isn't hard to do. If you take the 15 minutes to Familiarize yourself with it, and a few hours in a junkyard looking for parts, and put them in the carb, it's no reason for EFI powered car owners to be upset that they can't change thier performance that easily.
The motors from the Factory internally are a bit weak but hell who gives a damn bout stock performance anyway.

That's where you see the flexibility of the system. The CCCS is great at that, It just doesn't care. And as far as dropping an intake on and a carb on a tuned port motor, that's used for anything other than street use.. in a heartbeat, no since to hinder yourself and try to work around a stock management system that fights you ever step of the way..

So Yes for a Daily driver i'd take an lg4 over a tuned port Much more reliable.


[This message has been edited by Pony Killer (edited November 23, 2001).]

cort351w

By the way, I am talking about a tpi to carb swap for my daily driven (as soon as I get this exhaust put on and actually drive the car again) 91 formula 305.