1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

I've read on a thread I can't find now that LS1 valves will work in L98 heads if you install 8mm guildes. I'm wondering if you can use the valves and springs on the L98 (iron) heads if you machine the spring pockets? If anyone has info in this please inform me, there are ALOT of LS1 stock valves and springs floating around.

MrDude_1

why in the world would you want to do that?!

you dont need LS1 valves to run the beehive LS1 style springs....

and SBC valves are ALOT cheaper the LS1 valves..


i think you would probly want to do more research on whats out there before persuing a specific set of valves....

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Because I can get LS1 valves for 30 dollars and the springs for another 30. From what I understand the LS1 valves are a better design than the standard L98 valves, are lighter, and stronger; only drawback is you have to use the 8mm guides. I'm not talking about performance LS1 valves here I'm talking about stock LS1 valves that people have removed to do larger valves, and I've seen a thread where people recommended stock LS1 valves as a viable option for L98 head rebuilds. Another person tells me that the spring seats will need to be cut to get the beehive springs to fit.

ME Leigh

Yes it can be done pretty easily. I got some LS1 valves, beehive springs, keepers and retainers off of ebay for about $30. You do need to install new 8mm valve guides though. The springs will fit in the stock pockets.

I might install my LS1 garb on my 416 heads when i port them for the hell of it.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

The springs will fit perfect in the stock pockets.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Thanks!!! It was your post 305SBC that I originally read mentioning LS1 valves and springs on regular small block heads. Do you know how much lift and RPM the stock LS1 springs can handle? Or a better question would be will they control a set of LS1 valves on .520 lift up to around 6300rpm? I'm pretty sure they will because the stock LS1 cam is around these numbers and the LS6 cams are above it.

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

what are the exact specs on ls1 springs. fit vortec?

88IROC350TPI

I'm confused as to why you'd wanna put "LS1 valves" into a mediocre head like iron L98's. Seems like a hassle with almost no gains whatsoever.

MrDude_1

exactly.
any cost benifit from used LS1 valves is offset by the cost of the 8mm guides.


now the springs, i can totally understand. you can get a set of new "z06" springs for cheap... athough personally, id go with comp 918s if i was putting them in my car...

btw, comp makes some cheap steel retainers that will hold the LS1 springs (or 918s) on a standard SBC valve.

ME Leigh

I agree, you would not want to put LS1 valves in a 350 head with 1.94" or larger valves. IIRC LS1 valves are 1.90". But they would work good in 305 heads on a 305.

I have the purple LS6 springs too. They are going on my ported 416 heads.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

hmm I was told the LS1 valves were 2.00 1.55 from the factory this is why I was looking into them, thanks for the heads up before I bought a pair and really regretted it. Does anyone know how much lift a set of standard LS1 springs can sustain?

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Yes that is correct. Whoever said they are smaller is incorrect.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

I'll post the install height and spring specs tomorrow.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Most used L98 heads have enough miles that they need new guides installed anyway. The cost of the guide-liners with 8.0mm I.D. is exactly the same.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

"I agree, you would not want to put LS1 valves in a 350 head with 1.94" or larger valves. IIRC LS1 valves are 1.90". But they would work good in 305 heads on a 305."

From this post, if the LS1 valves and springs are an easy install they would seem ideal, if they're 2.00 1.55 with some porting they would definetly flow better than the stock 1.94 1.50's, this post seems to be bringing out alot of misinformation. 305sbc you have actually done this setup, do you think it's worth the effort? I KNOW my heads need new guides and they're the iron L98 heads (Camaro TPI 350 heads) this would seem like a good cheap way to step them up a notch with some port and polish work.

Vader

Why stop at 2"? Pontiac, Buick, and SBF valves can fit SBC heads just as easily. It's been done for decades. Some of the old Pontiac 350s used 2.11/1.77" valves that were very lightweight. Granted, if you're getting take-outs for next to nothing, there is a cost consideration, but running somone else's used gear in a valve train without thorough inspection is at least a little questionable to me.

As an aside, remember when "behive" and "ovate wire" valve springs were first introduced? Many people remarked how unconventional they were, and now the factory is using them with success. It's generally good to keep an open mind.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

The other good thing about lS1 valves is there usually lower mileage take outs so there's not as much of a chance you're going to run into worn out gear. I could open them up to 2.02 1.60 but once again it's the price consideration. I wouldn't take springs out of different old SBC heads and re use them in my car because you never know how old they are and what they've been through. The same can be said for the LS1 valves but since they've only been around for about 7 years there's less of a chance you'll run into duds.

ME Leigh

Sorry i'm retarted the correct size is 2.00 and 1.55"

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

The install height of an LS1 valve in some stock iron heads.

416 casting (305 head) intake with valvejob install height = 1.80"

083 casting (iron L98) intake without valvejob install height = 1.79"

Obviously the exact install height depends on how much is cut to match the valve seat to the larger valve. It starts out at 1.790 but once the seats are re-cut increases to 1.80" and this is using the stock LS1 retainer and keepers.

Comparison to the stock L98(083) intake valve in the L98(083) head:

083 casting with valvejob & stock L98 valve install height = 1.73"
___________________________________________________________________

Some valve size & weight data:

===========================diameter===weight====W/retainer,locks&shield
416 casting LB9 stock 305 valve intake = 1.845" --- 114 grams ---- 150 grams

===========================diameter===weight====W/retainer,locks&shield
416 casting LB9 stock 305 valve exhau = 1.509" ---- 107 grams ---- 164 grams



===========================diameter===weight====W/retainer,locks&shield
083 casting L98 stock 350 valve intake = 1.941" ---- 115 grams ---- 151 grams

===========================diameter===weight====W/retainer,locks&shield
083 casting L98 stock 350 valve exhau = 1.507" ---- 107 grams ---- 164 grams



===========================diameter===weight=====W/retainer&locks
241 casting LS1 stock 346 valve intake = 2.002" ---- 100 grams ----- 114 grams

===========================diameter===weight=====W/retainer&locks
241 casting LS1 stock 346 valve exhau = 1.554" ---- 87 grams ------ 100 grams

_____________________________________________________________

Spring data (weakest to strongest):

Stock L98 spring w/damper: 78 grams
Height Pressure
1.73" - 70 lb
1.70" - 75 lb
1.67" - 80 lb
1.126" - 1.143" - BIND (variation from spring to spring)



Stock LS1 spring wt: 69 grams

Height Pressure
1.85" - 70 lb
1.80" - 81 lb
1.77" - 90 lb
1.74" - 100 lb
1.35" - 205 lb
1.25" - 240 lb
1.223" - BIND



Stock Z06 spring wt: 76 grams

Height Pressure
1.85" - 82 lb
1.80" - 98 lb
1.77" - 108 lb
1.74" - 117 lb
1.35" - 250 lb
1.30" - 260 lb
1.25" - 285 lb
1.125" - BIND (green w/orange stripe)



Comp 918 spring wt: 73 grams

Height Pressure
1.85" - 130 lb
1.80" - 143 lb
1.77" - 150 lb
1.74" - 156 lb
1.35" - 270 lb
1.30" - 286 lb
1.25" - 300 lb
1.125" - BIND (old series)
1.080" - BIND (new series)
_________________________________________________________________

None of this data is copied from anywhere else. I took all measurements in my garage tonight.
I have edited this to correct a typo and update some of the info like the 083 valvespring bind variation from spring to spring, and to include the weight of the oil shield (11 grams) in with the factory valvetrain weights.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Yes I do think it's worth the effort. I recently got a used set of LS1 valves, retainers, keepers, and springs for $40 on ebay. The LS1 valves are much better quality pieces than stock L98, not to mention better flowing and lighter in weight. They are usually low miles and I've not noticed any wear problems. It may have to do with the fact that LS1 heads come from the factory with very nice bronze guides. Valves coming out of iron heads w/iron guides seem to show more wear.

I would only run the stock LS1 springs in a stock or very mild application. If you look over the spring data you can see why I'd prefer the 918's for a performance application. If you're keeping the lift down to .500" or lower then the stock LS1 springs should be fine. I like to have a little more pressure on the seat for an aggressive cam lobe than the stock LS1 springs offer. The Z06 springs are much better and allow more lift. If you look around you can get these at reasonable cost.

The new design 918's can easily go over .700" lift if you cut the spring pockets .050" deeper.

Another option is to use the lightweight 2002 and up Z06 valves.
intake: 73 grams
exhaust: 65 grams
These can be had for $220 new from certain places. This doesn't sound cheap, but for what they are it's a good deal. These are lighter than most titanium valves.
__________________________________

If you're looking for more RPM then this swap offers lighter valvetrain parts along with a conical spring.

If you're looking for flow, this swap offers larger valve head area along with a smaller 8mm -0.314" stem. Factory type 23* heads flow air primarily across the back of the valve, so the LS1 valve has a nice advantage in head shape and the thinner stem. A flat backed valve is the best choice for the older factory iron heads using moderate valve lifts.

The small size and shape of the LS1 retainer leaves lots of clearance for the beefy rockers. This helps out those people who prefer to run a pushrod on the short side. It's also lighter weight than most titanium retainers. The LS1 steel retainer and keepers combo weighs 13.5 grams.

As for parts upgrade this swap would be tough to beat for the cost. If combined with good porting to match the valves, the flow potential is great.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Now there's some solid info, 305sbc you have been one of the most helpful people I've found in these forums. My cam is Lingenfelters #74216 specs are 213/219 duration @ .050 .493"/.502". I'm pretty sure I can get away with the regular LS1 springs because my motor will never rev over 6000 rpm. My only other concern will be if I can still use my self aligning roller rockers on the LS1 valves, I'll check that out when I get the springs and keepers here. What're the measurements across the keepers on the LS1 valves?

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

these didn't attach last time

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Pic 2

vorgath

Those Z06 valves, what diameter is the stem, and how big are the valves ? 2.00 and 1.55 or what ??

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Yes, the same size as LS1 8mm stem 2.0/1.55


The roller contacts the valve tip which is also 8mm, so your rockers would be too sloppy IMO unless you ran lash caps.

I always run guide plates instead of the self-aligners. I just think they work better, more dependable, etc.
Yours should work if you could track down the right size lash caps.
I'd contact Comp or Ferrea. You'd just ask for something to fit on a 8mm valve tip and also inside your aligners.
They should be cheap.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the heads up.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

http://www.blueracer.cranecams.com/?...Number=99045-8
These guys look like they would work
Valve Stem Diameter 8mm
Tall .204"
Thick .050"

D's89IROCZ

Just trying to add info here. Why don't you use the scoggindicky Z28 springs . They are stock diamter and are the highest preasure recomended for hydraulic lifters . I am running them in my 083's with a little ZZ4 camshaft.

part number SD1007 @ 1.8 =120 lbs @ 1.2 350 lbs . 1.250 diameter. They are good for .570 lift aswell so that will cover pretty much all you will need in a street setup.


They would be good in a high revving application.


...just thought I'd pass it along. I think I payed around 45 for everything.

7plagues

iTrader: (1)

so would these ls1 springs fit vortec heads?

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

We have the identical cam, and lingenfelter recommended the Comp 986 duel spring and when I went to the comp cams site and asked a tech a questions , he replied with the 986 or even moving up to the 987 due to the agressiveness of the ramps. Seat pressure was 132lbs at 1.750 I believe with an open pressure of 285lbs

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

986 springs, locks and retainers were about 110 bucks new off of ebay and 60 bucks to cut new seats on the heads to accept the larger diameter spring.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

I think someone asked earlier "why use a conical spring?"
So here's a good link that explains the concept.
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb50354.htm

vorgath

W H A T ?? 170 bucks for the entire deal ?? Parts and machine shop ?? Waow

D's89IROCZ

VERY good article . I had no idea they were that benificial .

shaggy56

Im going to bump this since its becoming popular so it seems.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

ttt to answer some questions from other threads.

Here's some links to some of my photos of cylinder head conversions.

LT1 heads ported and converted to 8mm LS1 valves & beehive style springs.

http://s702.photobucket.com/albums/w...3/LT1%20heads/

305 heads (416's) ported and converted to 8mm LS1 valves & beehive style springs.

http://s702.photobucket.com/albums/w...3/305%20heads/

Let me know if the links aren't working please.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Still working fine, and very nice links they are appreciated.

vorgath

Wait a minute ... you put ALL of the following on a 305 head ????

LS1 valves

Beehive springs

AND (!!) LS1 .. 1.7 ratio rockers ????


How much work had to be done to the 305 head to achieve all of this ?

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Re - 305 heads.
You can see most of the work in the one picture above. They have been machined for screw-in studs & guideplates, and the guide bosses were machined down some. The pushrod holes in the heads are also opened up.

The older heads have to have either 8mm guides installed or the 8mm guide liners installed to fit the LS1 valve-stem. The valve seats in the heads are opened up some and given a new valvejob so the valves will seat.

The LS1 rockers aren't neccessary for the conversion. To put those on I had to drill the fulcrums of the rockers to fit the larger studs.
Porting isn't neccessary either, but it is desirable and those heads are ported.

Reconditioning most used heads requires at least guideliners, seals and a fresh valvejob anyway, and people usually want the screw-in studs, guideplates, and pushrod holes drilled so they can run a performance camshaft without worries.

The springs on those heads are good to about 0.600" lift with no machining of the spring pockets, but more lift is possible with the machining.

vorgath

How much are we looking at, cost, of installing the LS1 valves, 8mm guides, spring seats cut down ? Machine shop cost

3rd gen Will

iTrader: (8)

What if I just wanted to use the LS1 springs with stock l98 valves? I already have read that the springs fit in the seats, would I just need to use the LS1 retainers since the spring is more narrow at the top? I believe the locks are both 7* also. I plan on running low .500 lift cam, I am concerned about the pressed in studs. Obviously spring height measurement would be the best way to check max lift. Also just drill out the stock LS1 rocker and they work? Man if this is the case I found a use for me stock LS1 crap that has been taking up space on the shelf for a few years!

Ok after continuing to search around the max lift will be limited to about .480 because of the valve guides. Still I hope the ls1 springs will work b/c that would be free upgrade for me.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

About all of this has been covered, and it's off topic of this thread but oh well, let me explain your simplest solution right quick. The LS1 springs will work just fine, the LS1 retainers will not (LS1 valve stems are smaller). You'll need the Comp cams retainers, I believe the part number is 787 - 16 but double check it, you want the beehive retainers for 11/32 stem valves. Once you install the beehives and the comp retainers you can go past .480 lift, I believe you can go to around .550 or so because the retainers don't sit as low as the stockers did.

3rd gen Will

iTrader: (8)

Thanks for replying!

Yes sir those are the beehive 11/32 retainers. $50 on summit.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

There's some photos of conversions to LS1 and LS6 valves into older cylinder heads here:
http://s702.photobucket.com/home/olympiadis3/allalbums

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

New info to help those doing the swap:

You should only need the 8mm bronze guide liners (not complete guides).

The seal you use depends on the finished size of the guide-top. You work that out with your machine shop.

Factory guide-tops are usually 0.558" - 0.560".
In that case you use a seal with a bottom-seal I.D. of around 0.540" for a good interference fit.

The top-seal stem I.D. needs to be around 0.295" to fit an 8mm (5/16") valve-stem.
I prefer a Viton ring & band type of seal.

If your guide tops are machined down to a 0.500" O.D., then use SBI 122-1053 seals.

If they are left at the stock 0.560" O.D., then use SBI 122-1125 seals.

I always order seals last when all machining is done.

The bronze guide liners for 8mm valves are K-Line part
# KL 1851 STA (0.316")
or # KL 1939 STA (0.315")

Both are for a 0.3475" bored hole max I.D..
(reference the K-Line catalog)

If your LS1 valves are like new, then you may want to use the 0.316" liners.

If the valves are well used/worn, then you may want to use the 0.315" liners for a tighter fit.

Your machine shop should be able to figure this out.
Make sure you pick a shop that has no problem with installing bronze guide liners.

The process is they drill and ream your old guides to the 0.347" I.D., then install the guide liners, then use a ballizer for final sizing of the guide I.D. It doesn't hurt to run a guide hone through them once to provide a better inside finish, but it's not required.

If by chance your heads need some guides repaired with full inserts, then pretty much any standard SBC guide will work since it's getting drilled out to the new size anyway.

To run the LS1 valves, you also want to get a complete set of used stock LS1 retainers and locks. They will match the lock grooves in the valves, and they will require the use of beehive type springs of the proper size. The easy solution is to pick up a set of stock Z06/LS6 valves (yellow) for $50 off of Ebay.

With the Z06 springs you should set the installed height to between 1.70" and 1.75" on the intakes, and 1.75" on the exhausts. That should give you at least 100 lbs on the seat, or a little more depending on which series spring you end up getting - both are good so it doesn't matter.

You should be able to get all the parts for about these prices:

Used LS1 valves, retainers, and locks - $50 - $60 (LS1tech.com/forum)
New Z06 beehive springs - $50 - $60 (Ebay)
SBI valve seals - set of 16 - $18 (SBI parts supplier)
K-Line bronze guide liners - set of 16 - Don't know, but a box of 100 is only $75 so it shouldn't be very much.

If you're sticking with a stockish type camshaft with no more than 0.450" lift, then no special machine work on your heads will be required.

You should do the porting yourself or it would be very expensive (labor intensive). Without porting there is NO use in upgrading the valves.
The main area to work is in the valve-seat and bowl area to blend into the port and open the seat up to match the larger valves. This part is necessary for the valve upgrade. Any additional shaping and enlarging of the ports can help flow, but isn't absolutely necessary. You do all of your porting before any machining is done to the heads, but after you clean them and check for cracks.

If power and flow are very important to you and you're planning on a full port job, then you should consider welding up the EGR passages in the middle pairs of exhaust ports before you begin porting. You should also consider at least some minimal deshrouding in the chambers on the sparkplug side.

When the porting is all done you'll need to have your machinist install your guide liners and cut your new valve seats into the heads. You want a normal 3- angle seat, with 30*, 45*, and 60* cuts.
You want the inside diameter of the valve seat to measure between 88% and 90% the diameter of the head of the valve. This is especially important if you're going to run a valve lift of 0.500" or more.

There are some photos in my photobucket account of some of my work to use as example. I think the good pictures are in the LT1-heads album.
http://s702.photobucket.com/home/olympiadis3/allalbums

1969RSSS

where is the freakin thumbs up tab !!!

Mystyk_Wynds

Welll correct me if I'm wrong, but the math for using stock ls1 springs and the stock L98 install height says even turning that motor over is going to break something.

Stock L98 spring w/damper: 78 grams
Height Pressure
1.73" - 70 lb
1.70" - 75 lb
1.67" - 80 lb
1.126" - 1.143" - BIND (variation from spring to spring)
Max lift= installed height- coil bind...1.70"-1.126"-1.143"=.574"-.557"


Stock LS1 spring wt: 69 grams

Height Pressure
1.85" - 70 lb
1.80" - 81 lb
1.77" - 90 lb
1.74" - 100 lb
1.35" - 205 lb
1.25" - 240 lb
1.223" - BIND
Installed height of L98/LB9 is 1.70" so 1.70"-1.223"=.447"

However milling down the spring pocket could solve this but it just seems to be extra money.
But I will give thumbs up to this thread...I have been trying to figure out what to do to my heads, being a 305. I wanted to lighten the valve train as well figure the rpms to operate at. My biggest issue was the head flow, the ex flow is 110 and the In flow is 195....FAR off from the 75% ideal.
So I ask, knowing the above and that my valve sizes are 1.84/1.50, should I go with a 1.84/1.60; 1.94/1.50; 1.84/1.55; or 1.94/1.55?

Mystyk_Wynds

Ok so maybe I should ask this one again.
So I ask, knowing the above and that my valve sizes are 1.84/1.50.
What valve combination on a 305 is best for power without causing shrouding?
1.84/1.60; 1.94/1.50; 1.84/1.55; 1.94/1.55 or 1.94/1.60?

What is the exact link on exactly how to put an LS valvetrain onto stock l98/lb9 heads?
It would make for an interesting upgrade.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Not sure what you're asking here, all that info is in this thread. Also it all depends on which castings you have. Keep searching and reading, it'll all make sense eventually

Mystyk_Wynds

No this thread only goes over basics of ANY valve job, it doesn't even come close to switching the entire valve train.
Besides some of these stock cams could wake up with a set of 1.7 ls rockers. Now as far as changing valves, if the valves aren't lighter, or bigger/better designed, which there not really, then what are the gains?

The main thing i'm asking is how do you put the LS1 rockers and assemblies onto the stock heads, and actually have them work?