My much loved 89 TBI Vin E RS.

How many turns is the car suppose to go through before it starts?

It cranks around 5-7 times to start and it's always done that, even before the 350 swap. Also with a different computer, module, coil, MAP, IAC, TPS knock sensor, temp sensor, o2 sensor, dist-cap, plugs and wires and some other things I can't even remember in the past 10 years. All the vacuum lines are in good shape, but I need to get a vacuum ball reserve thing because it was removed sometime before 1999 and I didn't even realize it until recently when I was studying up on where the vacuum lines go. Explains the erratic cruise all these years.

Does something have to happen before it puts spark to the plugs?

I never could figure out why it does that.

 

Could be the fuel pump relay is bad and it's going through the oil pressure switch.

 

good "?" mine does the same thing 5-7 turns of the starter

 

I had the same thought - bad fuel pump relay.

 

You can hear the pump working and it's spraying as soon as it starts turning over.

 

Put a new relay on it today with no change. After the car is warmed up, it will restart quickly.

 

Test the fuel pressure. If it's dropping when the engine is off, fuel pressure is leaking back. The pump then has to pump the lines back up when you go to start it again.

 

Can a fuel pump do the same thing for over ten years without completely failing? I don't know how long it did that before my mom passed away, but I know it was doing it in 98 when I first drove it.

I wonder if Autozone has a "loan a tool" pressure gauge? I don't have the money to buy one and could probably just barely pay for a pump right now after my exhaust fell on the freeway and was sparking all over the place yesterday. I had to put out money I don't have to fix it. The cat is what burned me. Is that a pun? lol

I bought a throttle body rebuild kit a few days ago for $25 that has all the gaskets, the fuel pressure regulator diaphragm and the o-rings. Something I don't understand... They sell the regulator for $40, but you can get a complete kit for $25 with the regulator in it and it's the same brand. That's just crazy!

Will 6 volts DC open the injectors? I want to back flush the hell out of them with carb cleaner and have 4 AA's hooked in series.

It has a new fuel filter. The old one was fairly plugged and had a bunch of black crud coming out of it. Made me wonder if someone was putting dirt in the tank. Has a lock cap now just in case.

Also, I don't want to think about how hard it would be to change the pump with dropping the tank and all. Scary sounding!

 

Another thing I want to mention is the fact that the car is very cold hearted for the first start of the day and also after it's sat for a few hours. After you drive it about 4-5 blocks with about 3 stop signs in between, it smooths out.

I didn't think TBI was cold hearted like a carb? The heat tube from the manifold to the air cleaner is hooked up, but it even does it in 90 degree weather for the first start of the day.

 

Make sure the fuel is still pressurized after you shut it off. Could be it is leaking down into the tank, not holding residual pressure. Thus would create the problem you are having.

 

With a TBI, there's no where to test fuel pressure with a simple connection like the schraeder valve that the TPI systems have. You have to get a fuel pressure guage and install it inline cutting the rubber hose. I don't remember what fuel pressure is on a TBI - 21psi maybe? You'd need a guage that goes to 60psi I'd think to be safe, as well as the t connector for it, and a couple small clamps, like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1710/

and

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-800160/

 

I said the hell with it and am just going to buy a new pump. It's 20 years old, so I imagine it's due to be changed anyway.

Please don't throw stones, but it will be a hack job using information I found on this site. It will be done as neatly as possible. I am not capable of doing this the standard way.

I know someone is picking up a rock right about now, but will a regular fuel hose work reliably or should it be done with compression fittings that someone in another thread mentioned?

Wish me luck! I'll update the results after it's finished. I swear, about everything else electric on the car has been changed!!!!

 

If your talking about cutting the hardlines just above the tank to get the pump out and splicing in a pice of hose to "reconnect them" so to speek, just rubber hose should be fine. Make sure to use fuel injection hose and not carb hose - the hose will say fuel injection on the side or it's not fuel injection hose (the price will tell you as well, FI hose is about $3.50 a foot, carb hose about $1 a foot). You'll need 3/8 and 5/16 sizes, just get 1 foot of 3/8 and 2ft of 5/16. The feed line is 3/8, the return line is 5/16 AND the evap line is 5/16. Get a good inch at least of hose slid over the hardline, and clamp, and you shouldn't have any issues. Don't use those clamps that look like a bent wire - use clamps that screw tight like these:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FRA-999255/

 

Thank you for the valuable information.

Years ago, my uncle told me about doing a car this way and I always said I would never do it to mine, but right now I have no other way. I will be scared half to death when cutting the lines.

 

DON"T use a hacksaw, or any saw! Heat and sparks from cutting + fuel and vapors = bad times! Use a pipe cutter, about $8 at any hardware or autoparts store. Good luck!

 

Will the tubing spread apart enough to get one of those small cutters to turn a complete 360?

I would much rather do it that way, but I was going to have some kind of oil constantly applied while cutting to prevent sparks.

Today definitely told me I need a pump. Went out to the lake for a cookout and it made it there fine, but coming back was a problem. It stopped on me about 7 times where it acted like it was running out of gas. Sometimes it would pick back up, but most of the times it stalled. I was able to keep it running a couple times by letting up on the pedal. Can't wait on Rock Auto now. I'll have to go to Napa, AutoZone or Advanced.

Also, when I'm going down a hill I sometimes smell gas. I hope this isn't something serious.

 

Fuel vapors for me is and was normal. If the pump was really going, it would of been gone by now I would think. Mine went from normal, to not starting at all unless the map sensor was unplugged and that was good enough to move it around the garage. Then just completely stop giving enough pressure to even start. I replaced my pump and it starts up in about 2-3 seconds of it cranking but fires up strong right away afterwards. Same with my fathers 89 Caprice Classic which is a 305 TBI.

Also not doing the standard way? What way? I hope its not the process of not dropping the tank normally. Also Fuel injection lines with good clamps is enough for anything.

 

The standard way is dropping the tank I guess. I am not capable of doing this and do not have the money for someone else to do it, so it has to be "hacked" as people call it. I have dimensions, diagrams, photos and will make sure it's performed as neatly as possible and sealed very well.

I also have a throttle body/injector kit with a new regulator to put on and will clean the injectors very well and try to back flush them some way. I have a 6 volt battery set up, which is hopefully enough to open them enough to let the cleaner back flush. I'm going to back flush the hell out of them if I can! I'll use a can on each injector if I have to!

I am still wondering if someone put dirt in the tank because of how dirty the filter was with all the black gunky stuff coming out; It was pretty clogged. I guess I could check it again and see if it's plugged again. If so, I'm SOL.

I just put a lock cap on it to prevent anything like that from happening in the future.

 

I am 19 years old, probably around less than a year of experience in the field. My past hobby experiences was with computers and electronics. With an extra pair of hands, anything is possible.

That said, I am not gonna lie doing the door method seemed like the way to do it after spending about an hour and realizing my Panhard bar and brace bolts were not going anywhere without a fight. I left it overnight and came back the next day with a chizzle & hammer and got 2 out that way. One needed to be heated and then hammered to **** to come out. They were severely dry and rusted. I did not drop the rear end btw. All I removed was panhard bar & brace. 2 Metal shields the main one covering most of the tank and the one near the exhaust bend over the diff and don't get me started on the exhaust. Mine was apparently clamped and welded and had to be sawed off. Then came the fight of taking out, which took about an hour and change. Installing it back did not come without a fight as well, minor but jesus .

After reading that hell who wouldn't try the door method but just depends how your car was treated and maintained in previous owners possession to experience what I did.


Also, why a new regulator? If the spring is good, just get a normal gasket pack. The one I purchased from Oreilly came with everything you can think off, even the small filters for the Injectors themselfs for only $25. Well I bought a better kit about a year ago for $9 so who knows on that . Part number is 10902.

After reading your dirty filter comment, I would take the tank out. Not worth having your investment turned into junk.

 

I am not capable of dropping the tank.

I have that same model TB kit. I said regulator, but it's just the diaphragm.

When the pump and sending unit are out, I'll take my MagLite and look down in the tank and see what is going on. If it is really dirty, I will try some flush/siphon cycles and see how clean I can get it. Hell I may do that even if there is only a little bit of anything.

 

I wasn't able to change the fuel pump today, but have everything I need now and will be doing it tomorrow.

I guess another sign the fuel pump dying is the fact that after it sits for 15 minutes or so, it will start up and sometimes die like it's out of gas when I step on the petal. So then I start it again and give it some pedal a few times and it still sounds like it's running out of gas and then smoothes out. It's been doing that for awhile, but I didn't know why until reading about how it is suppose to hold pressure. Well mine doesn’t appear to be.

Also, the pump is a Bosch (it’s pretty lol) and the strainer is an Airtex. I refused to buy an Airtex pump after reading horror stories, but was not able to find Bosch strainer anywhere. The Airtex strainer was $10 and is pretty fancy looking and looks like it would filter better than what the photo of the Bosch filter shows.

The tight fit tubing cutter from Advanced Auto is a little bulky and was $10, so when I went to Lowe's to get the sheet metal, screws and silicone, I found one smaller for a couple bucks cheaper and will take the Advanced cutter back. The Lowe's cutter also has a lifetime on it.

Decided to use a compression fitting on the 3/8 and fuel injection hose on the rest. Advanced only had four 5/16” fuel injection clamps, so I got the other two clamps at Lowe's. Just regular clamps for the other lines. I want to make sure the return has fuel injection clamps even though I read they are not needed. That dang fuel injection hose was over $6.00 a foot! That’s crazy!

I should have taken the dimensions I found online for how much sheet metal needed, but I know I have a little more than needed. That stuff isn’t cheap. I remember years ago when people used sheet metal for their rusted floorboard, it was very cheap and some people would obtain it from a heating and air conditioning business. This stuff is kind of thick, so I hope my uncle’s tin snips will cut it.

Short sheet metal screws. Very short! A slightly larger hole will be drilled on the plate than the metal on the car.

I never in a million years thought I would be doing this. Scary stuff! Wish I had the ability to drop the tank or pay someone else to do it. It’s my only vehicle now because my Regal went to the scrapyard.

 

Today was a pain in the ****.

The pump is changed, but there is one line that I had trouble with and it actually turned and cracked this big round thing at the top of the unit and now the tank isn't holding pressure.

I hope not having tank pressure will cause trouble, but when I am able, I will simply get another unit. In the meantime, the compression fitting on the high pressure line is not leaking and for some reason I had it in my mind that there was only one 3/8 line when there are two.

I'm going to replace them all with compression fittings. For now the replacement unit is going to come from the junkyard until I can buy a new one.