I filled out a request form with comp cams, but haven't heard back yet. Can you give me suggestions on who to contact for cam suggestions and supply?

 

People here love to guess on such things. You'll get a pretty wild array of suggestions.

What kind of car, motor, intended use? What does the car weigh? What gears & converter does it have? What induction system?

 

http://jonescams.com/

 

Skinny z, thanks. That is a one i have heard of. i believe it is Mike jones? Have you had personal experience with jonescams?

 

It is an 89 iroc. 383sbc, 2.77 gears ( these will probably be changed to 3.43or3.77). The converter will be whatever works best with the setup. Weight 3500#, it is a mostly street daily driver. NA-performer rpm intake.

 

For a mostly street driven 383, if you're after good manners, I'd go with the LT4 hotcam.

218@.050. In fact that's the bare minimum I'd go with on a 383. With a good set of heads, an easy 425 hp.

3.42 axle ratio with a 2500 rpm converter. That would be a fantastic combination IMO.

 

Yes. Mike Jones..
I had him spec a couple of cams for a proposed 383 build. When I'm back at my PC, I can dig up the details and post them here.
Mike is also a moderator at Speed Talk. That place is full of questions just like yours. And like here, there are almost as many suggestions as there are people posting. But Mike jumps in now and again.
I also made a cam request from Bullet Cams.
Another option you may want to consider is Vizard's Torque Master program. I ran with that for a 90 day free trial. Very interesting.

 

Jones cams is good. Full proof performance can work. Bullet racing cams. They are all good

i’ve run Jones and Bauer Racing Engines. They have done good

 

Here's a link to a thread I started about this very subject almost exactly one year ago (then COVID crushed the build plans).
You may find some of it worthwhile. Lots of good info from the usual crowd of solid contributors.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ecs-383-a.html

 

I also have a Jones cam.
Mike was great to work with.
Mine was a bit of an odd ball cam (50mm cam with a 4-7 swap), so it took a bit longer.
It wasn't cheap, but big power is never cheap

But like others have said, there are lots of cam grinders out there.
You're probably better to get an off the shelf cam, cheaper and your combo is somewhat common.
Good luck!

 

Probably the most difficult thing to convey to any cam grinder is exactly what the intended purpose of the vehicle is. My experience is that most will offer a general all around grind that have the typical broader flatter curve but less overall in output. Kind of trying to save you from shooting yourself in the foot so to speak.
Case in point was one of experiences with Jones Cams. Having filled out his recommendation request form , I received something that looked pretty average. Might as well have gone to COMPs catalog and picked one from there. It wasn't until after a couple of additional bits of correspondence that the spec become a little more refined and was more along the lines of what I was seeking based on what I'd seen be successful on similar platforms.
It's all in the details.

 

i see this all the time and i chuckle at times. When someone requests a custom cam and the .050 specs come back looking sorta like shelf cams or common numbers That they seen other guys run on the forums lol. So they question it and some cam guys will change spec to make it look more “custom” to safisfy the customer. Shouldnt you trust the input the cam guy gave you? Hes the expert else you wouldnt need to go to him. Just put together your own grinds. A lot of the times two cams can have similar lift and duration specs on paper but behave entirely different, especially jones cams with inverse radius lobes.

its good to closely discuss the cam design and behavior with your cam guy to make sure you are on the same page, but in the end its his experience and knowledge you are buying and should trust. My cam guy doesnt give me specs. I pay and cam comes with card, thats when i find out what im getting. My new bbc turbo cam is way different than expected.

 

​​​​​Try explaining to your cam grinder that you want a dyno monster. Just for bragging rights. THAT is almost impossible to get across. Nothing funny about it.

 

Just to emphasize my point, check out this cam spec. It's in a 230 port cfm, dual plane, 10:1 350.

hydraulic roller single-pattern grind, with 224 degrees duration (at .050) on the intake and exhaust lobes, and 0.352 inch lobe lift, 108-degree lobe separation angle

I'll bet there are very few cam people that would deliver that spec. And yet that was almost 450 HP.
That's nearly 1.3 HP/CID.
Hard to beat and even harder to get spec'd.

 

Talking about project sledgehammer with its David Vizard spec'd cam? If so it had aftermarket Vortec heads that flowed around 250cfm.

 

honestly havent seen any issues with this. A competent cam guy should be able to deliver.

i look at it from the late model game, lsx stuff since that is most popular and more cams have come out for those than anything and those guys want the latest and greatest and all the cool cam names

there are dozens of cam specs out there that fall within 5 deg of each other and within .020” of lift and make nearly same peak numbers across the board or within 5-10 hp of each other. I’ve seen lower duration cams out power bigger cams. I’ve seen bigger duration cams make more low end than small duration cams. It all depends on how the lobe is designed. But there is a point where the cam isnt the limitation and the intake and head becomes it, and once the cam spec gets in that ball park, small changes in duration lift or icl/lsa doesnt really do much. Its just tapped out

a dyno monster would just have to be stable enough to last for a few second pull so you can get aggressive with the lobe acceleration and valve spring as long as you have the lifter and pushrod to handle it. Its basically what the old engine master cams used to be. Make most power in the sub 6500 rpm range, and those cams were usually short duration, as much lift and acceleration as you could control to make it happen.

 

my cam guy has done cammed LT1 engines with specs just like that, 106-109 lsa depending, alot of 224 or 230 lobes on 107 lsa’s. Even stock headed deals that are 230 cfm as well. Idk what is so special about it? Most guys simply spec 112 lsa or so for efi thinking that efi cant handle tighter lsa but that is simply not true. It can be trickier for idle but outside of that its fine

my point is alot of ppl have a set idea what their cam should look like based on trends they see in forums and magazines and expect that from custom grinds from ppl that know better than them. I just dont understand why they would question specs from the experts

 

While they were EQ aftermarket, as quoted from the text...
The intake ports flow in the neighborhood of 230 cfm

 

I was surprised at how small of cam that Jones recommended for my SBF. Barely hotter than a stock cam.
The cam I have in it now has a much longer duration...

 

Only because the experts are asking a recommendation based on an assumption. Not unlike why there are so many cookie cutter cams in the catalogs. As it's been said, it's done that way to protect guys from making poor decisions. Duration, duration, duration. Ask any enthusiast and that's the first thing he'll mention. Just like this thread. Cam companies know it. Cam grinders know it. The guys in the know understand that this isn't necessarily the primary consideration. It can be a result as much as a target.
Anyway, to the OP, have that discussion. Fill out the Jones paperwork, wait for his reply. Then call him to discuss it. Then post back. I know it changed his approach to my grind. (And he didn't change for the sake of changing it to make me go away. At least I don't believe so).
I think the most poignant thing said here is that a serious conversation has to happen between the customer and the cam guy. A fill in the blanks form won't do the end result justice in many cases.
​​​​​

 

That is one thing i have seen that bugs me, no real box to fill in customer comment on how you want the car to work and behave or anything special you feel you need to add to help the selection. Just boxes about your list of parts and basic engine specs. That is important to make sure the cam guy understood your intentions, and your job to look at the spec info sheet to determine if anything else needs to be included that you dont see on the form. Thats a good approach

 

The thing that gets me are the “custom cams” some of these crate engine guys say they’re using. A buddy sent me the “custom comp cam” specs and it was supposedly 1 degree and .001” smaller on the intake and the same on the exhaust as a XR294HR. 99.999% sure there was nothing “custom” about it. However depending on the application it very well might be “perfect” for someone if 7” of vacuum works for you.

Unless its stickily a race car there’s going to be some degree of compromise between power and drivability. What that ends up being is going to depend entirely on what the owner is willing to put up with or without.

 

Here's the thing about that. I think it depends.
Take the Vortec build posted with the 224/224 on a 108. That's possibly the best cam for torque production and consequently horsepower when you take the limited airflow into consideration. Thinks it's an unworkable street package? I bet it pulls 15+ inches of idle vacuum at 600 RPM.
Most enthusiasts (and I emphasize most because those that are posting here know better) are steered away from a spec like that. I've rarely seen any recommended grind from a supplier that uses a 108 for a 350. You have to get into the "race" or "circle track" or "whatever" profiles to find it. That's only 60 degrees of overlap! Anyone here could tune that in their sleep. And yet that somewhat tighter LSA is described to Joe Blow and too radical and unmanageable for the street.
Now having said that, I get the point. You don't want to build an airflow capable engine of 550 HP and cam it so that the RPM range is from 6000-7000 and expect to enjoy any streetability.
You give in and give up 25 or maybe even 50 HP to have a nice flat torque curve and some manners.
What you said BadSS is exactly right. "What that ends up being is going to depend entirely on what the owner is willing to put up with or without."
The more I think about it, the more I think I'm all in for when (or if it seems) this next lump gets put together.
Anyway, just saying.

 

In my world with efi cars i hAvent seen a setup yet that i wouldnt call streetable. You can tune anything to run with an automatic trans. Manuals i can see having some issues with low speed manners in od gears but even some of that can be tuned out

the only thing that would make something not streetable to me is reliability in the parts used...like aggressive solid rollers and heavy springs...worrying about when a rocker will break or when a lifter will go bad...thats not good for peace of mind lol But for the most part hyd roller deals never seem to have a major issue. I’ve seen some radical cam lsx stuff work fine with efi. Same with sbc stuff. But yeah some of the aggressive lobes and lifters can be noisey and valve springs need replacement every 7-15k miles or so.

i was nervous on my first 383 with a 109 lsa. 19.5 deg overlap at .050. 78 deg advertised overlap. Worried idle and low speed would be tricky. But it wasnt. Ran incredibly well. Lock converter up hill in od at 25-30 mph no problem.

but it def is personal preference.

 

Yes, it's definitely workable - I used to daily drive a 406 with 8" vacuum at 1100 rpm back in the late 80s - 106-degree lobe spread solid roller by they way. Your estimate is probably a little high on the vacuum though (especially with a non-computer controlled ignition). I installed a 225/225-108 hydraulic flat tappet in a buddy's 10.2:1, 406 and I'm pretty sure it pulled right at 13" vacuum at either 800 or 850rpm - probably could have pulled close to 15" with a computer controlled ignition though.

I tend not to try and not talk in terms of streetability because depending on who you talk to, that could be driving it anywhere a new car could go to a Pro-Mod you back off the trailer onto the street. When I pick a cam, I go with the tightest lobe spread, the fastest rate of rise, and the most lift that will fit the application or intended outcome that I'm (or the person is) comfortable with. What that ends up being will vary significantly depending on how mild (more compromises to power) or wild (more compromises to "drivability") it needs to be for the application.

 

1: comp cams does have a misc. Section at the end of their cam recommendation request. That just asks if there is anything else they need to know.

2: i am definitely feeling what skinny z is taking about, when he says it is hard to communicate what exactly you are looking for in a cam/engine. Because terms are defined differently for each person. What each person is willing to call street drivable for example.

3: here is what Mike suggested:
Cam# LT1, HR71360-72360-112
276/280 @.006"
228/232 @.050"
.360"/.360" Lobe Lift
112 LSA
As was stated earlier in this thread, i asked him about the lack of lift and the lsa because it did not seem to be where i would have thought based on other builds i have seen. I would have thought lift would have been between .560 and. 610 and the lsa 108-110. Not that i know much about cam selection.And this was his response:

The AFR 195 ports get turbulent above .550 lift, so there's no advantage to go above .550".

I went with the 112, because the 195's are a little small for a 383 to make power at 6,500rpm. The wider LSA will help extend the power on the top end.

 

Power at 6500 RPM? Where did that come from?
Did I miss something?
FWIW 500 HP (or very nearly so) is achievable with a head smaller than the AFR 195 (~180cc, 255@.550") at less than 6000 RPM.
Maybe I missed your HP target?

 

I am not sure where the 6500rpm came from. I was thinking that my Max rpm would be somewhere between 6-7k. I figured from other builds i have seen that 600hp was going to be high but i would be happy with anything around 500hp. With it being mostly a street car and trying to be honest with myself i am trying not to get too attached to a horsepower number as long as the car runs great. I also don't want to feel like i left much power on the table by choosing a cam that ends up being super tame.

 

Thats a good street cam with afr 195’s on a 383

the afr 195’s are only good for 6200-6400 peak Hp rpm On a 383 anyway so no need for alot of duration. 228-230 is usually all you need with some lift. 112 will extend and flatten the torque curve and give excellent idle manners.

.360 lobe lift is .576 with a 1.6 rocker so thats perfect. You could go abit bigger to be more racey and tighten lsa some, but up to you on how you want it to sound and idle and drive.

 

Which AFR 195's do you have?
You can see where it's good to speak with someone whose been there and done that. Jones recognized the limitation of the 195's and spec'd accordingly.
Now that said, the gap between 500 HP and 600 HP is a lot bigger than it looks. And the hard parts needed to get there even more so. These days 500 HP out of a 383 isn't all that remarkable. But it still takes a coordinated effort to pull it off. Not to mention make it last. I learned the hard way that what works for 6500 rpm doesn't necessarily cut it for 7000.
Given your intended use from an earlier post, you may want to rethink that 6500 rpm and 600 hp.
If you post back with the head details, I'm sure there's more than one person who has successfully built that 500 HP lump before. Or 550 maybe.
I can tell you what one well known engine builder recommended for my 383 with small heads. But it seems it's a very unpopular spec. Good to 490 HP I'm told. All in by 6000.

 

Look at chad speiers 379” motor, very mild solid roller made 535 hp i think?

afr 195 is not a 600 hp head. You need a bigger cross section head to make it happen. Speiers 205-227 cc heads with the small bore chamber is what you want for that

228/232 is close to a 500 hp cam basically. You need to go bigger if you wanna get everything out of it, if well over 500 is desired. Jones will do it if you make it sound like limited street vs pure street

 

Kind of why I was wondering when I saw 600 thrown out there.
Chad's engine I think is one of my personal favourites.

 

Having a 2nd look at Jones' spec. 54 degrees of overlap?
I'd like to work out the valve events for that one.

 

I haven't purchased heads yet. The plan was an afr 195 street 65cc. I was debating the 210 ($100 difference) , but after checking forums 90% of 383 builds used the 195s over the 210s. The 195 flows about 10-15cfm more than the 210 below .500"lift. Above that the 210 flows more.

 

The deal here is your HP goal.
HP relies on a few things in the NA world. Cubic inches, airflow and RPM.
Look for airflow in the heads you choose. That will (more or less ) determine the potential. For arguments sake, 2 times the port flow at a given lift for horsepower. Heads flow 250. It's reasonable to say that 500 HP is achievable.
This is where the cam comes in. It has to realize that potential yet fit into the confines of the "application".
Application notwithstanding it's easier to talk about maximum output for a given package of parts than it is decide how far to go or when to reign back. I prefer the maximum effort approach as it removes a lot a variables. Then I can decide if that maximum effort is workable. It was posted earlier that some guys are happy to take their Pro Mod off the trailer for an evening on the streets. Others, it's to take their daily driver to the limit and still be a daily driver.
That said, I think there's been enough supporting evidence from the crowd here to say that 500 HP is reasonable for a "real street car" that sees everyday duty and doesn't require massive preventative maintenance.

 

The street 195 vs the race ready 210 is pretty close until .500” and then the 210 really shines

comp 195 vs comp 210 is close til .500+, then really shines above .550-.600.

the 210 is a better port and will make more power above 6200 imo and carry to 7000 better

probably a good 20-30 hp more up there if done right imo. Intake has to be ported to support it. Vic jr probably aint a bad idea there. And then i’d add 6-8 deg to the cam

look up advanced induction lt1 and lloyd elliott LE2 and LE3 packages from the late 2000’s. 195-205 cc ish ported heads and big 230 deg hyd rollers on 107-110 lsa’s. 400-450 whp range. Hot stuff. That kinda gets you an idea what it takes to get over 500.

my own 383 was a 119-120 mph car in half decent air at 3400-3450 lbs. thats a solid 500 hp. Afr 195’s and a 230/245 .600” 109 lsa cam. Hyd roller. Shift 6700-6800. Super fun.

 

Probably could have gone for a 106 LSA and less duration and gone faster....if drag racing was the deal here.
Sincerely,
Devil's Advocate

Kind of kidding Orr. I've always liked your builds and results. Waiting for the day when I can back to the track myself. I'm itching to try something that's off the beaten path. Like a 106. Don't read much about those in a 383.

 

Honestly i am not sure. I’ve seen 113 lsa xfi cams make as much or more power than my combo did. But not on the same dyno just on the internet so who knows

106 with less duration may have worked as good since i only had 3600 stall. If i had run a 4500 i bet i would be faster with my cam based on the powerband

also would like to know how the curve would have looked like with a 4-6 deg split and not a 15 deg split. Good intake exhaust flow ratios are usually good with smaller splits. But seen a trend in cams with ls heads going wider splits and making power everywhere. Its all about where and when the valve opens and closes

 

Would or did you drive your 383 on the street? Was it "street able"?

That cam you ran in the 383 is more like what i was expecting to get recommended. And you were running the afr195s.
Maybe i just need to clarify that i would rather have an occasional street use vs. daily driver and see what would get recommended.

 

sad thing is they do this, and almost always end up with compromised scr and quench because " the magazine said it would ping on 91 octane"

i agree 100 % build it to make power, a minimum of 10:1 scr, have a custom cam ground by jones, straub, others in the know. here is a hint guys.. it will usually look smaller than you think it should on paper, it will probably be a 110 lsa for an na 350/383. and if you are using good heads like the afr eliminators and a good exhaust system it will probably have less of a duration split than you are used to seeing with shelf grinds.

 

it was my summer daily driver. I didnt drive it much in the rain and such cuz i didnt want to get the car dirty and wet roads are no fun to do anything on. It was an extremely streetable car, just very loud with the 11:1 comp and single 4” exhaust.

 

Here's a cam selection program I've used. Something of note in the two screenshots posted. The only change in the engine spec is the size of the intake valve. It's interesting to see how that little bit can change the end result. The larger valve tends to allow the LSA to broaden a little and less duration is needed resulting in less overlap for the same power output. Airflow is king. (These particular grinds were based on port flow of 250)
You can carry this philosophy over to the LS series where the cylinder head efficiency is better than the typical Gen 1. Rarely have I seen tight LSA's for Gen III or IV. Even on the bigger CID stuff where being undervalved has greater relevance.

 

Some of the reason late mode ls dont get tight centers is piston to valve on stock bottom ends or pistons without valve reliefs

but yeah the better more efficient head with the valve angles getting away from old sbc 23 deg and moving to 11-15 deg stuff, just doesnt need overlap and doesnt need tight lsa

but id love to see more low duration tight lsa truck like cams to see the torque they make. Tests i have seen tho big low end can still be made on 111-113 lsa on those things

 

For my 10.5 to 1 385 with 195 street eliminators he recommended hr71360-72360-110 276/280 adv 228/232 @ 50 576/576 w/1.6 rockers. lift on a 110 lsa with 107 icl. And I'm using a miniram. With long tube 1-3/4 primary 3 inch collectors. 3 inch dual exhaust. I haven't dynoed it yet. But my request was at least 350-375 rwhp with as much torque from idle to 6000 rpm as possible. I can tell you with the holley hp and dual sync with just the wizard base files it idles very good for having 58° of seat to seat overlap and has a solid 10-11 inches of vacuum with ls delphi lifters at 1 turn past zero lash. Cranking compression with c4 lt1 starter is 198-204 psi. I didn't want to rev past 6000-6200 and that's what he specced for me

 

Interesting spec Bill.
Are those advertised numbers directly from Jones?
When I received my two recommendations (the 2nd of which came after I reiterated my objectives) I was given only the .050" numbers and lifts at the valve. Going through his lobe profiles, the adv vs .050" numbers don't quite match up.
Engine details were 383, 9.8: 1 compression ratio and 255 cfm @ .050" heads (2.02" intake valve).

Spec 1:
HR73353-75348-110
231/239 @.050
.353"/.348" Lobe Lift
.565"/.557" Valve Lift
110 LSA
The above was his best shot at guessing what the intended use would be through his cam request form.

Spec 2:
HR72360-73360-108
232/236 @.050"
.360"/.360" Lobe Lift
.576"/.576" Valve Lift
108 LSA
That cam came about after the target was more defined. In this case it was with WOT at or near peak HP RPM (as in open road events).

 

Cam lobes can grow or shrink depending on the base circle/core size its ground on. His profile may be used on sbc sbf bbc etc which all may be slightly different from spec once finalized. I know my bbc cam was 1 deg off catalog spec once i got it. Maybe thats why its different

 

Pretty much.
My thinking is that he has a wide selection of grinds/profiles and that being a true custom cam manufacturer we end up with these slightly tweaked results.
With a little math I'm guessing I could zero in an advertised value based on the few degrees taken from a given lobe at .050"
Interesting to note that when he changed the spec from the 1st to the 2nd he also went from his no-name Hydraulic Roller profiles (.750" wheel) to his EHS series ( .750″ – .825″ wheel). They appear to be more aggressive.

EHR72360 280° 234° 155° .360″ .540″ .576″
HR70335 280° 224° 141° .335″ .502″ .536″

My reasoning for wanting the adv numbers is for purposes of calculating overlap. Seat to seat is the value I use for comparison.

 

Besides an overlap number i’d love to see the cam lift curve area. Some of his inverse radius cams are suppose to have a larger area for the given lift/duration than some typical symmetrical lobes and even some asymmetrical lobes

 

I've read the same. That may account for that overlap number being different from other cams I've had spec'd.

While I can't account for his unique profiles it wouldn't take too much to plot the curves based on the adv., 050" and .200" numbers. Plus full lobe lift. They might be done on DynoSim or similar. There's a cam math tab that I believe could be used for that.

 

Yes as delivered, and I degreed it in at 107 icl, well it came in at like 107.5 or so but I attribute that to my elcheapo degree wheel, he cut it to match the base circle of the cam I had already installed and bought pushrods for since I had already setup the shafts and didn't want to waste the money buying another set of pushrods and he put a cast gear on it so I didn't have to mess with a bronze distributor gear. I guess it could be changed in the event I had any wear?? .pretty nice guy, I think I drove him nuts asking questions after the fact and he was very gracious and helpful. There was a bit of a delay but that was back this summer when covid had everything shut down. And he did say he was having core supplier problems up front.His lobes on his site can be tweaked, I noticed the lobe numbers didn't match exactly what he ground mine at. If you Google the part number of my cam on the card without the lsa suffix you'll see he has done it on a 108 lsa for others, and with more or less lift. So I'm guessing it's just an internal reference type thing? I'm not a cam guru and this is the first custom cam I've ever had. I didn't mention before, but the idle vacuum I had was at 875. And I had just stabbed the dual sync in, had not even synced the timing yet. I'm guessing it will end up idling around 800-825 once tuned? Oh, and my car is a c4 with 6 speed zf. I'm hoping for a solid 350-375 rwhp. A few have said I will end up seeing around 400-415 rwhp once tuned???? It's snappy as hell. Still have a lot of work to do on the car, wiring, exhaust system, battery relocation blah blah blah