Third gens handled exceptionally well for thier time. But new technology with AWD, sticky tires, etc is tough to compete with. And the driving factor with controlling RWD is now out of the picture with AWD. Basically just point and shoot and the thing turns. I know from experience driving my brother's evo that that thing handled like it was on rails compared to my 86 trans am WS6. For a car that was rated at .87g my TA sure didn't feel like it. I had a shelby mustang that was rated at .88g and it felt MUCH stiffer around corners. Things just get old and tired.

 

my point exactly your comparing a brick cell phone from 88 to a new android man, its not really the same thing, now compare a thirdgen to a rwd 2dr sports/muscle car from today, and its still pretty competitive

 

Wow, this is an old thread. Anyway, YES. The Subbi STI is fast, but mostly off the line cause of the AWD. But AWD cars are notoriously hard to get off the line well. You give a 17 year old a Turbocharged 300HP AWD car with a 6 speed manual and he won't be going anywhere fast anytime soon. I have a friend who is a drift racer (a good one with his own sponsored car), and he's been suping these things up for like 20 years. Took him for a ride in our Custom 400hp Magnum R/T Hemi and scared the crap out of him. That car doesn't even give you the funny feeling in your stumach when you nail it. Funn stuff man. Oh, and when we go around a corner, our cars actually turn. They dont keep going and crash into the tree. The understeer in FWD cars is rediculous.
"You see, having a RWD car with Oversteer is much better, because you don't see the tree that kills you". -Jeremy Clarkson TOP GEAR BBC

 

gotta love a qoute from JC, but anyways i think we all agreed to disagree and let this thread die, atleast i hope we did none if us wants to get "stephen'd"

 

I don't get the reference ro "Getting stephen'd", but it's agreed to dissagree. I just wanted to join the thread to see all the rediculous responses.

 

Sorry to drag this out but.... Some of these guys put like 10 20 30 40k in their cars and it's rediculous. Give me 10 grand and i can put a 383 stoker (425HP 500lbs tq) under the hood, redo the suspension, get a new 3.42 rear end, and then reinforce the car with sway bars and/or a roll cage. That will KILL just about any tuner. Not to say tuners are worthless, but it has to stop at a certain point.

 

I'm sure there are many tuners that could achieve similar results for the same money, using an import.

The guys that are putting in many tens of thousands are either building show cars (lots of flash, paint, lights and tunes) or building serious race cars for whatever form of racing they are into. Same can be said for domestic owners/builders.

Your post could also be turned right around on domestics and specifically 3rd gens. Look at the recent 3rd gen that Rad Rides did, rumour says that there is $10K into hood fabrication alone. I've seen many other 3rd gens over the years where there has been many tens of thousands of dollars invested and it's not faster than stock, but that's what the owner wanted to build.

 

I will of course disagree with you, however your method of conversation is on a more feasible level. Again, the LT5's method, or variation if you will, of "controlled" variable valve timing accomplished the very same task to which you are referring. The LT5 uses dual overhead camshafts, four cams in total, with extra runners and injectors that are controlled by the ECM to accomplish and meet the very same objective. Primitive, yes, but it was essentially the same thing and it set the stage for future GM vehicles. Understand that all of us in the ZR1 world are well aware that Lotus was going to introduce an actual electronic cam indexing system in 1996 but GM pulled the plug when they realized they can meet their goals of profitability with the pushrod engine....

White Devil, ask yourself what variable valve timing does, overall. Then remember that the LT5 engine uses four cams to accomplish the very same task, albeit it controls the amount of air and fuel throughout the RPM by controlling the intake "butterfly" valves, as well as a second set of injectors, 16 total. Do you honestly think the engine is running all of that extra air through those additional runners down low without the injectors being pulsed? It would run way too lean. It is controlled through the very same principle, it accomplishes it's flat torque curve and high RPM potential in the very same fashion WITHOUT indexing the camshafts, but accomplishing the same end goal. The LT5 produces 350 pound feet of torque at a mere 1500-RPM, and has a redline of well OVER 7000-RPM, and abides by, and easily passes, emission laws. This is exactly what variable valve timing was set out to do, to not focus on just one area of RPM, but throughout the entire band....

I am honestly done arguing about this. If you guys cannot see the system for what it is then I don't know what to tell you, but nevertheless the LT5 CONTROLS the amount of air and fuel throughout the RPM band and the ECM handling 02 correction throughout, as that is what made it so special. Again, it was a variation of what Honda may have had back then, as well as completely pioneering what was to come from General Motors in the future.

 

Not sure how you can call something variable valve timing when there is no variation on the valves. As for the intake manifold butterfly thing my old 1988 honda accord did that. It only had 4 injectors but it did have 8 manifold ports. BTW that would be variable runner length and volume. The LT5 is an awesome motor my favorite GM has made but saying it has variable valve timing because it had variable runner length/volume and fuel control is just wrong.

DOHC does not mean variable valve timing. My toyota had a quad cam V6 and variable runner length and does not have variable valve timing. Hell my 1982 V45 had a quad camV4 it does not mean anything.

Just because 2 things accomplish the same thing does not mean they are the same. My carburetor runs my car but I don't call it electronic fuel injection.

Either way the first variable valve timing mass production was Alpha in 1980 Both Porsche (1950s) and GM (late 1970s) had the idea before that and both scrapped it and the first US patent for it was 1920.

 

I said it was a variation of the system, and your carburetor analogy is moot....

Variartion = alteration, modification; deviation, divergence, difference....

The LT5 pioneered what was to come through General Mortors, so please stop it with your VTEC rhetoric because I can care less about Honda patents. I am referring to what was inevitably to come with the Northstar engine, not to mention the LT5 pioneering SEFI.

What on earth are you talking about? Who said that it did lmao? Do you have a ZR1? Have you ever owned one? When not in "power" mode, and with the second set of injectors NOT pulsing, do you honestly think all of that air in the additional runners was entering the combustion chamber(s)? That was the whole point of pointing out that it had four cams, the ECM controls how much air and fuel throughout the RPM band to maximize performance, which is essentially what cam indexing does. Please don't put words in my mouth....

 

Don't have to I can quote it
And I understand how the LT5 works it is a very simple idea turn key more air and more fuel with a more aggressive timing curve. As for the DOHC thing you sounded so confused when you mentioned them I did not think you knew that so I thought I would tell you.


We get it you know what variation is but when you call it variable valve and it never does anything with the valves then it is not variable valves.


Never said anything about Honda patents I said the first US as in the USA you know America patent for variable valve timing was in the 1920s

 

Stick to quoting Edelbrock tuning procedures....

I'm impressed, really.... I am

You thought you'd tell me with this example of DOHC clarification....?

"DOHC does not mean variable valve timing. My toyota had a quad cam V6 and variable runner length and does not have variable valve timing. Hell my 1982 V45 had a quad camV4 it does not mean anything" - midias

I'm sure everyone has just dropped a few points in their IQ right about now...

No, apparently you don't. The EFFECT of valve timing is controlled air and fuel THROUGHOUT the RPM band, both methods accomplish the same goal, period. Again, it is a variation of that system with the results being the SAME...

1980's VTEC technology is the subject that we are discussing, and not the 1920's. Fiat patented the first VVT system in the 1960's, while everyone else jumped on the bandwagon thereafter because of STRICT emission laws. We were all discussing both who "pioneered" VVT within General Motors, and if the LT5 system is a variation of VVT and should take the credit. Try to stay on track and not go too far back into history, k. Perhaps Julius Caesar had the VVT idea during the Roman Empire as well? Maybe Hitler with his Volkswagen lol....?

Edit: [/done]

 

I can turn up the heat in my house or set it on fire both have the same result warmer house with a variation of the system. Are they the same thing? Just because you blowing hot air has the effect of being a space heater does not mean you are a space heater. Same thing?

Unfortunately you wanting to be right does not have the same effect as being right

The LT5 pioneered the north star yes but the north star did not get VVT until about 2004 so really the pioneer of GM VVT was a 4.2L inline 6 that came out in 2002 aka the GM Atlas engine. Sorry but variable valve timing is done with the valves. That is all nothing more. The LT5 pioneered GM using overhead cams in a v8 variable fuel and runner systems.

You can call something similar all you want but without actual valve variation there is no variable valve timing.

So blow you got air all you want but until you show how the LT5 directed GM to actually vary valves you have nothing.

 

i beaten a So-called tuner Honda on highway with my v6. I only drive a honda cuz of good gas milage and long drive to work each day

 

here driving a tuner/import car is kinda the same principle as driving a crotch rocket

smaller engine less weight lots of acceleration just honda dont weigh a couple hundred pounds

 

does said tuner cost about 500-1000 dollars to begin with?

 

What is the big deal? Add new shocks, the correct size stock tires, new bushings where needed in the suspension and your good to go. For the record also, my car makes enough torque to keep the average tuner in the rear view mirror by about 15 cars. That is the usually what happens when it comes down to it on the street,sorry.

 

It's very rare that you run into a tuner car that is really fast.

 

I completely agree. But a small turbocharged 4banger or even a V6 is going to have to try way harder to put that kind of power. A big V8 puts out that kind a power so naturally. It doesn't even have to try to put that kind a power. There are small engines that are specifically designed to stand up to that kind of power, but they are more expensive, and still won't put the power out as naturally. Most of these tuner guys don't have engines that can take that kind of abuse. Usually they work with stock engines. V8s are the best engines in the world for getting power out. Better then 4bangers 6cylinders, V10s (witht the exception of the Viper V10), V12s, Or anything bigger INCULDING the Veyron's W16 Quad Turbo (Which is actually two Audi 4.2L V8s), which in the super sport creates 1200HP. A twin turbocharged
6.2L Corvette engine (which doesn't need 16 radiators like the veyron), which is lighter, can and has put out the same amount of HP and more torque (In the American made ACC Ultamate Aero). I have seen 800HP Mitsu Evos but they always blow up. They just cant take the power.

 

My brother just paid $1000 for a 1990 CRX Si. Throw a DOHC VTEC motor in that car and you are moving pretty good.

Torque gets you off the line....not puts other cars 15 carlengths in the mirror. Line up next to a car with more power on the highway and see what happens. You already saw what happens actually, when you got killed by shadowZ's mustang. You really think that little 4.6 motor puts down more torque than your 5.7? I doubt it. The HP is what beat you, not the torque.

Where I live, half the tuner cars at the local car hangout run 13's or faster....most being faster.

I understand what your trying to argue....but please understand that ANY motor that's going to make 800-1000 HP be it V8 or not will have to be forged and completely built. And EVO's can make 800 HP very reliably with a built bottom end. It's all in the setup and if you build it correctly, it'll last. Think of it this way....how many pistons, rods, and bearings does a V8 have......now how many does an EVO 4 cylinder have? So which is probably cheaper to build?

 

You can get a thirdgen for $1000 too,and not need a motor swap, secondly i didn't get killed by that Mustang,it was pretty close.

 

I will agree with you on that. Comparing a stock v8 block that can hold say 400+ HP to a stock evo/dsm/honda motor, the v8 will last longer majority of the time. As you said, they are built to take that kind of power. To have a import motor last in the high HP range for lets say most of its life, you have to swap it with a better one. For my Talon for example, I know I can push upwards of 300-400HP and be ok. I know guys who push into the 500's and are ok but eventually blow the motor. To be able to go any further, you have to invest in a race block which cost $$ but can with stand 600-1000 HP and last. The guy I bought my car from owns a 90's DSM race car and runs 9's all day. But I agree, for a stock import engine to compete with a v8 engine, it will take a bit more money to have a reliable running car.

 

seems like all of the tuners need a "motor swap".LOL and they still get beat.

 

Most third gens need a motor swap to be fast too. The majority of them came with 305's or V6's.

 

whitedevilTA, i do agree with you on horsepower winning races tho. I have in upwards of 350 ft lbs of torque at 4k rpm.

 

My point is ,you can modify the thirdgen and make it faster and it is still a thirdgen. Swap the motor on a crx and it is no longer really a crx, now is it?

 

We agree on something? Time to end the thread.

HP is what "pulls" the car....torque gets you off the line. So a car with more torque will always jump out ahead but a car with more HP will reel it back in top end.

 

Ehh, it's really the same thing though. Is my car still a 3rd gen having an LSx in it then? All your doing when swapping a motor in a honda is going to one thats bigger and has better technology, heads, etc. Thats essentially all you do with a V8 swap too.

 

No I'm pretty sure its a crx still. If your saying this, when ford guys put chevy motors in their cars or chevy guys put ford motors in, are their cars still a ford or chevy??

 

That would be a Ford with a Chevy soul! LOL

 

The LT5 pioneered NOTHING. It was just a cool engine that combined many things into one package.

SEFI was on the 1986 Buick Grand National/Turbo Regal.

Probably other vehicles previous to that.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand the difference between variable runner length/volume and variable valve timing. Completely different functions.

I guess a diesel engine is the same as a gas engine, and a rotary, because they all convert fuels into kinetic motion.

An apartment building is the same as a house, because they both provide a place to live.

A microwave is the same as an oven, because they both heat up food...

 

idk man, i think you will get much more of a response from your mods with a v8 vs a smaller engine. Plus i like the sound of muscle, like most of us do. Not, like -baaaah,bahhhhhh,bahhhh,boh,boh,boh ( sound of a typical tuner)

 

I'm not bashing the import scene since I'm part of it, but for a good laugh look up "mike merryfield - stupid ric*r" on youtube.

 

i took my v6 camaro to my local tracks import/street wars and i was one of the fastest cars at the event. this was a street legal, no gutted cars.no backhalf/fronthalf etc cars event.

everyone was talking so much crap in the staging lanes thinking it was a v8 camaro once i poped the hood and they saw a turbocharged 2.8L v6 the smack talking pretty much stopped. its amazing how import ppl dont respect v8's but drop a turbo on something and they dont want to race it

heres a nice launch picture from that race

 

What did your 2.8 turbo run?

 

i love this guy lol and its sooo true around here lol

 

at that race high 12's, i only made 2 full passes down the track that day. i was having issues with water off the line from all the kids in there fwd cars rolling threw the burnout box on street tires. the track was wet for about the first 100 ft off the line.

infact my first run i almost ended up in the wall came out of the hole spun bad and the car took a sudden left turn

 

I want a turbo v6, just for the bragging rights of being faster with less displacment. Funny how v8 guys are quick to bag about a bigger engine, then once they lose to a v6 with boost they cry about the equalizer

 

i didn't read this whole thread, but from reading some of the posts in it, i think therckid is back,.. and he has been cloned,...

 

my my you are amusing I'll give you that. a stage 4 turbo is the same thing as an RV came or a 3/4 race came. it's nothing more then a term that really has no real meaning but is used by those that don't know much about cars and understand marketing more then the real automotive side of things.

so yes you can find stage 4 turbos just the same as you can find a 3/4 race cam but that doesn't mean they are something that really exist so to speak.


makes me wonder about you compared to me then as you only have a measly 1,526. so does that mean me the import guy knows more then you? if nothing else think of this. you have 1526 and this guy you are complaing about has just over half that many at 785
now lets compare you vs me. you have 1500 I have oh 5275. that's damn near 3.5X as many as you. kind of interesting if you think about it.



I'm curious on that one as well. I've been around here for the dawn of time and have never been a mod and I Admit I wanted to help out back in the day when I Spent lots of time here but nobody would let me. how did he get that job?


EDITED due to retraction. street letha looks to be right. the two different cams did have different valve durations and so when the second set of runners opened up you went from an intake valve that had 252 degrees of duration to one that had 272 degrees of duration. that to me is variable. not quite in the sense of some where they can change the valves being retarded or advantanced but variable as in the valve timing in the method of duration would change.

 

It's more like a mwzzzz. Mwzzzzzzz z z zz zzz. Sounds like a mosqueto getting chopped up by a weedwacker (combined with the noizzzz from the weedwacker itself). V8s (when tuned right of course) sound like P!ssed off Dragons. IMO

 

That is exactly what i was trying to say about stage 4 turbos. You need to go back and re-read what i posted. I said stage 4 is more of an "over all level". Sure you can find turbos called stage 4 turbos , but they are essentially just bigger turbos.

 

So, rx7speed. What year Thirdgen do you have?

 

rx7speed, you are on a Chevy website, did you realize that?

 

depends on whats going on. there is a LOT more to handling then just skidpad numbers. I really do mean a lot more.
here is a different example a sti does around 69.7 on the slolam and the camaro does what around 63.x or so?
which handles better?

that's still not a stage 4 turbo. that's a specific turbo with specifc supporting mods. stage for is a "I'm going to say this because it sounds cooler"

what defines the difference from a stage 1 to a 2 vs a 3 vs a 4?
how many stages are there? is there a stage 0? can you mix a stage 4 and a stage 3 setup, and if so what would you call it?



what does it matter?

nope sorry listening to you talk I thought I was on another one of those ***** sites. thank you as the last 10 years I've been here I didn't know any better.

 

Where could I buy a stage 4 tubo kit may i ask?

 

i might be wierd but i love the sound of my v6 vs the v8, then again its prolyl cause its just a different sound then what most ppl are used to hearing
the first 2 below hit around 8,200 rpms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9klWcBSTP0
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36mLOpS9eXo
and when i keep the rpms in check (about 7k max)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQkHAUPXnLg

 

I was talking about small fourbangers. I like the sound a '06 WRX makes though. It growls a little more than it buzzes and wheezes. I'm refering to civies and toyotas with the funny mufflers that are big enough to shove a grapefruit into. What V6 and car do you have?

 

I am sure if you type that into google, you will see something. Those are essentially just bigger turbo chargers though. It is often referred to as "stage 4" or stage 3, as more of an over level or reference point.

 

its an 89 camaro with a swaped in 3.1 i still have the 2.8 badge on the intake so at the track i just tell everyone its a 2.8