89IrocZ350TPI

Might be going against my buddy soon. Here is a break down of the cars. He says he is going to win from a dig, not sure about what he is putting down. I have also not dynoed my car yet with my new mods. Any input would be great.

MY Car:
LS1 WS6/Ram Air 6-speed manual
Pacesetter Long Tube Headers
Texas Speed 3" Catted Y Pipe
HighFlow Cats
Hooker catback
SLP Lid
K&N Filter
Prothane Motor Mounts




HIS Car:
L98 4 speed auto
Catback
Mild Cam (ZZ4 I think)
Ported stock heads

TTA 1387

LS1 from a dig or a roll. The LS1 has it all over a L98 even with the cam change. LS1 is making more HP and Torque just about everywhere. Heck a stock LS1 would more than likely take that TPI.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

LS1, you've got him. Tell him to open up his wallet & put up or shut up!

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

The LS1 is going to win hands down. They are much faster cars to begin with and you've got more mods. The L98 only has a mild cam and even with tuning its not enough to take a stock LS1 based fourth gen. As has already been stated, if you've got a 3rd generation car with the LS1 engine in it then the beating will be even more pronounced. The third generation car is lighter and I believe they are slightly more aerodynamic.

budfreak1

iTrader: (7)

I raced against (I'm assuming) a stock LS1 non WS6 convertible at the track and I had him for the first 30-40 feet and then he began to pull on me. I had all my current mods (check my cardomain) at the time except for the headers and Y pipe and I still had all emissions. The LS1 is going to win chances are though. As I recall he pulled a 13.9 and I pulled a 14.3 on that run.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

The L98 still has more off the line torque than the LS1 but the LS1 will catch and pass the L98 car before the run is over. So that result is what I assume to be typical even with some bolt-ons for each.

89IrocZ350TPI

Good to hear because he seemed very confident he would beat me from a stop race.

NY3RDGEN

He's prob got a shot of the good stuff.. Who Knows??? If hes that confident.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I've had both cars...stock L98, bolt on L98, stock LS1 auto, bolt on LS1 auto Still have the LS1 99 ta

Bone stock my TA with auto and 2.73 gear went 13.4 at 103. It took my L98 with slicks/converter/drag wheels/full bolt ons to get down that fast, and thats a 1.7x 60 foot compared to the LS1's 2.02.

SO the L98 needs a huge jump off the line to match the top end of a LS1. You got bolt ons which significantly add power so unless you cant drive/shift being a manual, theres no way that LS1 should lose.

I've run my bolt on L98 car against bolt on LT1's which at the time were running with stock LS1 6 spd cars, and they pulled me everytime. From rolls and dig, they had too much top end for the L98 with HSR intake. TPI makes it worse.
I've run 6sp LS2 GTO's which run on par with 6spd WS6's and they pulled me pretty hard from a 25 mph roll and I had the jump on him.

NY3RDGEN

This all also depends on the length of the race. 1/4 on the St? Light to light?


Orr, I thought the HSR gets a bolt on L98 to breath up top similar to an LT1.

BigBadGTA

I have raced a non ram air ls1 trans am in my 88 L98 and I managed to stay pretty close. I have some basic little mods but its mostly stock. In your case with your ram air and mods you will kick his ***. race for money lol

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

I think the point we are all trying to make is that unless he's done some serious work to the L98 or he's running nitrous there is no chance in hell that he can beat your LS1.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Bone stock TA (305/350?...M5/700R4?...TPI/TBI/carb?), 2.73 & 13.4? And your saying you had to mod your L98 to get to the same time?

NY3RDGEN

The T/A is a 99 LS1 car.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Similar yes, but same power, not even close. Bolt on LT1 cars make upwards of 315whp, depending. I think I've seen as high as 330 but cant be for sure. THAT is impressive for the heads/cam on those motors. Thats LS1 range. I know for sure I've seen a few dyno in the 280-300 range mainly stock with manual 6 trans or with catbacks/air intakes. Most of the auto cars i've seen dyno around 260-270. They arent that weak. They can push those heavier 4th gens into the mid high 13's stock well driven. 3/4 second or so faster than stock L98 times.

Full bolt on HSR type L98's should be in the 250-260's range thru the auto. LT1's have abit more head flow, abit more cam, and abit more compression to make more power.


Sorry for the confusion. I was refering to my 99 trans am LS1 car. Non Ws6 with auto and 2.73 gear went 13.4's at 103. My HSR L98 with most all bolt ons and drag wheels would do 13.3-13.4 in same conditions at 101. Just no comparision in power between an LS1 and L98.


I still think no matter what LS1 has this if you hold traction. The stock converter auto L98 has the advantage in that its easier to drive from a dig. It should beable to go WOT almost from the dead stop without spinning tire. M6 LS1 will have to feather out the hole to prevent tire spin and roll into the throttle. L98 has that advantage but once moving I dont think that advantage will hold weight. LS1 will be coming on strong.

My 99 auto 2.73 TA could go WOT from a dig and never spin tire. Even in the rain it had a chance to hook up but only would spin once rpms reached 2500-2800 where torque started coming on strong. It was stupid easy to drive and a great stoplight car. Light goes green, you just mash it and it goes without any problems. VERY CONSISTANT. I've ran that car 5 times at the track, 3 at 1/4 mile in PA and 2 at 1/8 mile in Texas and all ET's were within few hundredths. Amazing

In any case, i'd have to look at my old timeslips to compare 330 fts and 1/8 mile times, but I think the LS1 car bone stock had my L98 bolt on car beat at every point when comparing street tire 60 foot's. I was in the 1.9's with the L98 with 2800 stall on street tires compared to 2.02 on stock converter LS1 on street tires. I ran 8.80's in the 1/8 with the 99 ls1, which would normally be a high 13 second run, but top end was killer on the ls1 and it pulled 13.4's. 2.73 gears kills the bottom end on an LS1. 3.23 or higher gears and its getting worse for the L98.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

If the L98 can hook, then you will be playing catch-up for a couple of hundred feet then you most likely will blow by him like he is standing still.

I know that my 88 Formula 305 5 speed takes a bone stock 02 WS6 6 speed out of the hole on street tires but the 02 catches up really quick.
(I drove this 02 WS6 at the track once and was able to get a 13.2@109mph. Never drove the car before and made 4 passes before the track closed for the night).

Also, my friend had a pretty much bone stock 91 GTA 350 Auto and with goodyear Eagle F1 Steel tires he had a hard time keeping the tires from smoking.
From a dig up to 40mph, anytime you mash the gas the tires would roast.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My car when stock never could do that. Wish it had that kinda power but my street tires were good tires. Only on a dig when you brake stall as high as the stock converter could go and then mash it, it would start to light them up. Other wise for the most part it would hook and go. I had 2.77 gears. When i went to 3.27's and then 3.42's, I had a 2800 stall so apples to oranges.

NY3RDGEN

Odd, when my LB9 was BONE stock, It would light them up really well off the line just mashing the gas. Guess it depends on tune, TPS, Ect...

TTA 1387

Funny how everybody says this but just about all the LS1's I've seen will run a better short time than a L98 IROC.

The L98 "feels" torquey but doesn't have it when it comes to actual times against an LS1. Even my heavy pig of a GTO would run sub 2.0 short times when it was stock. And that's giving up roughly 500 lbs over a 3rd gen.

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

I think the main problem you get with the L98 is often traction. Deal with that and I think the low end torque of the L98 starts to come into play a lot more. Then again it still gets blown away by the LT1 and LS1 cars once they get moving.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

L98 TPI doesnt really have Low end, it has midrange which comes on strong but leading up to that and after that, its fairly weak.

My stock TPI L98 didnt 60 foot as well as the HSR L98 with same converter/gear. Curve was much flatter with the HSR. Maybe the 2800 didnt compliment TPI as much as it did HSR, but in my experience, the flatter TQ curves run better

TTA 1387

Best I've seen a stock L98 run was my buddy's, then new, 87 IROC. It went 14.3 back in 87. My 96 WS6 went 13.50 and my 04 GTO went 13.25, in 96 and 04 respectively. All were bone stock. The TPI just didn't cut the mustard at any point during the run. Off the line, it didn't matter. The LT1 and LS1 just outpower it everywhere.

89IrocZ350TPI

Maybe I have a freak car because I hit a 12.8 with just exhaust and lid. Ill updated once I get back to the track. Hopefully I can improve a bit.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Depends on the race track, weather at the time of the run, and the state of the tune on the motor. Some motors from the factory were of tighter tolerances and ran stronger.

Air can make or break the run. My L98 was a 13.2 car in good air, 12.9 car in sealevel cold air, and 13.4's in summer warm/hot air on a good run. Turbo car went 9.8's in good cold air, and in 80 deg heat, i had to up the boost 2 psi and only got to 10.0's.

All makes a difference.

86IrocLewie

This one's been beaten to death, but everyone's been dead on. Your LS1 walks away with it easily unless if he's got more mods than he's told you about. If he doesn't have headers, he's not getting the full benefit of that exhaust or cam either. I agree with everyone else that you should try to get him to bet you some cash.

I used to teach high school English, and a lot of my students started getting into racing. They'd ask me questions all the time b/c my IROC is a daily driver, and they all saw it. I spent a lot of time debunking Fast and the Furious nonsense. My favorite discussion was with a V6 Mustang owner who swore he could take a WS6 T/A. I laughed, did some quick math and told him he'd lose by at least 13 car-lengths. He didn't believe it until they raced and got thoroughly stomped in front of tons of witnesses. I think some people think they could outrun a ZR1 in a garbage truck as long as they were driving.

89fbirdformula

my car made 299 rwhp/401rwtq...

hp peaked at 4400/tq peaked at 3400

Racing LS cars was fun

Best track pass as it just recently sat with STOCK tpi runners and stock tpi plenum/tb...it went 12.83 with a 2.0 sixty...

heres a shot from the track, gettin it done on 245 dunlops! this was my best 60, 1.8 something.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Do you have a dyno graph? Curious as to the torque curve before and after the peak

89fbirdformula

yeah i can upload it tomorrow, im over at the fiances house.

its pretty flat until around 4k where it starts to fall down, the HP is whats shitty...it dropped like a freakin ROCK after the peak, 299 at 4400, and i remember seeing 260s in the 4800+ range.

86IrocLewie

89fbirdformula, That's a great-looking Formula. Nice track numbers too.

89fbirdformula

thank you very much, its gone 11.29@127 on the spray..

i have a build thread in the power adder forum i beleive it is, cars going single turbo with HSR..

89IrocZ350TPI

Ill prob go to the track with him. Also what was the V6 owners argument?

89IrocZ350TPI

Well I just got back from the Dyno Jet. The car put down 354rwh and 363rwt after the tune. Overall Im happy with the numbers. My friend didnt go but he said he is putting down more torque than me and thats why he would beat me in a 1/8 race. Guess we will see.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont think he would be putting down more peak torque than that on a mild cammed L98 but hard to say. Even if he does have more peak, you have more average tq and 100hp more. Thats enough to gain 8-10mph on the trap speed over him. I dont see an 1/8 mile race being any better for the L98

89IrocZ350TPI

Orr do those numbers seem accurate for my mods? I was actually a bit surprised and was expecting less.

Im not sure what he would dyno. I remember my bolt on l98 putting down 245/326. The dyno chart is on here somewhere I posted it like 4 years ago I believe. With his mods im sure he would have more than that. Maybe more torque off the line but less over the entire power band id assume.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah your numbers are pretty good. I've seen a few bolt on cars in the 335-340whp range with 6 spd around me, and I've seen one with all the major bolt ons making 351whp. Thats about right for those mods. LS1's usually have near same tq and hp, with slightly more torque.

My bolt on L98 with HSR intake was 254whp/315wtq. I do not think TPI made more than 330-340wtq when stock. Aftermarket TPI may beable to make more than that, not sure. I just know this local guys 88 firebird with all bolt ons with TPI ran about on part with my bolt on L98 with HSR.

TTA 1387

That was engine torque, not wheel torque. There wasn't a TPI that made that much torque when stock.

If I remember right, 245/345 was the best rated TPI.

89IrocZ350TPI

I bet on a mustang dyno though my numbers would be closer to 330ish.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I"m talking about real dyno numbers tho. Stock they are rated at 245/345 but they put down more than what the ratings say. I"ve seen vette L98 put down 230whp stock, i forget the torque, but they were rated the same 245-250hp depending on the year. Only 20hp lost thru the drivetrain? I doubt it.

danziger

It isn't going to be much of a race after the first 50 feet or so. I have/had examples of both from stock to fully-modded and the LS1 will own the L98 in every possible metric mod-for-mod. Unless he is seriously lying about his level of modification, he doesn't have a prayer.

TTA 1387

I remember seeing 195rwhp and 175rwhp for TPI's back in the late 90's at the dyno day we had in VA. Both cars were low mileage stock Camaro's, one a 350 and the other was a 305.

Maybe both of them were on the low side but we figured it was about right given the losses in the drivetrain vs GM ratings. Never did see a TPI put up that much on a dyno that was supposed to be stock.

89IrocZ350TPI

Finally got a chance to run.

First run DIG: I launched at about 2300 with no wheel spin. Pulled about a car on him off the line but he stayed right with me until I hit the top of second gear where I took about three 1/2 cars on him. I shut down at the top of third at about 95 and didnt look back.

Second run ROLL: 40 mph roll which I started in second gear. I pulled on him much harder this time and shut down at the top of third again. I think his car is tired with 180,000 miles on it vs my 29,000 mile ls1. I think a tune would put him closer.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

A tune isnt going to give that motor 100 hp it needs to hang.

89IrocZ350TPI

I just meant I dont think its running 100 percent.