Well the first thing I'd like to say about this car is that I bought it from forum member ,LETHALRACER. He was a cool guy and great to deal with. Anyway, I decided not to go blaming anyone after I found out my engine was toast until I found out what exactly happened to it. I originally suspected that the head gasket blew by the #3 cylinder, because the exhaust port was a burnt white color. This was not the problem at all. I knew I had a spun bearing, but I didn't know to what extent or why it happened. Then I figured the engine could have been taking out timing, but today I found out there were no signs of detonation. Anyway, the problem that caused the spun rod bearing was the cast eagle crank, which decided to flex some under the stress of 6500+plus shifts. This crank combined w/ the weak main caps of the 010 (4-bolt 350) block ended up in the crank "walking" some, which will eat up bearings faster than you can "aunt jamima". Once the bearings got fried the #3 rod got really hot because of no bearing, so the big end of the 4340 h-beam decided to take a hike. It ended up lodged inbetween the wonderful zzx cam (junk) and a counterweight. So to make this short, here's what's not junk:

heads, rockers,etc (phew...)
all the stuff on the front of motor
lifters, pushrods, & that's about it

So the lesson here today boys and girls, is don't run a cast crank w/ forged pistons and forged rods, when you insert a miniram, 300 cfm set of heads, pretty-big cam, and in general a lot of hp. Oh yeah, don't forget to upgrade your main caps when you plan on revving your engine to the sky, that'd be a smart idea.

I'll take any q's or comments, that'd be cool.

 

I forgot to say one thing. When I bought the car I noticed that the oil pressure was only about 5-10psi when you'd start it up. Maybe LETHAL was suspicious about a possble problem so that's part of the reason he decided to sell it. I'm not blaming him, cause I'm the dumba$$ that bought a car with questionable oil pressure readings. Maybe the bearing was already ruined when I bought the car, cause the oiling system was so good it could have covered it up. This is all specualtion, but I should have known better than to buy a car w/ low oil pressure. Live and learn I guess is what they say. Oh yeah, one positive thing Dave said was about the AFR heads, he said he couldn't duplicate my heads for $3,000 or less. That made me feel a little better. The car actually had a bunch of money spent on it. A few things could have been better, but it'll be a very nice car especially with a good running 406 and some paint. A 406 is in the works, I'm going finish the one my dad's building. It's ready to go, but the only thing I'm wondering about is the stock 400 crank after this incident. I'm planning on running my 236/236 Comp XE cam in this motor, what do guys think the hp will max out at w/ a miniram and the ported AFR 210's?

I'm going to work so I'll get back to this thread later tonight or tomorrow.

Joe

 

I will say one thing... think about replacing thos elifters... could be a lot of metal chips and amterial collected in them...

probably around 450-475hp for that combo- but what kinda lift numbers would be helpfull

 

how much did he sell the Z to you for?

 

Sorry to hear it. Low oil pressure is def sign you need to do some snooping around in the internals to see why. Live and learn.

A lesson I learned: If you start a new eng and it makes a slight tapping noise, shut it down and see what it is wrong or risk eating a rod bearing and wiping out that journal.

 

8k

 

Sorry to hear about this Joe. I guess the good news is that you get a 406 now Good luck on the 406!

 

hrm low oil pressure and messed up bearings. sounds like my motor, when it ate a cam, the metal shavings too about .01 of metal off my main bearings... grooving and eating them up. my oil pressure dropped from 20PSI @ idle to about 8PSI @ idle, this was how i knew it had excessive clearance. rod bearings were ok though, which is the odd thing they usually go first.

was it knocking? how did you know it was a spun bearing... it could have just been knocking because of the excessive clearance in the mains... (thus low oil pressure). mine did not knock, but had very low oil pressure. all my valves are always a white burnt color, ever since i ditched the carb and went EFI it runs lean thus they burn clean. so do the plugs..

what other symptoms or strange things did you notice? how do you know the crank was walking? did you check endplay before dissassembly?

 

Dude, I know Brett and helped him put that motor in the car in
Clarksville, TN. I know every part that went into that motor and we talked about his buildup and my buildup and what parts we would use.

Speedomotive screwed up on the motor. He ordered a forged 4340 crank.

There is nothing wrong with a cast crank taking 6500 rpms if it is prepared and installed properly. I have a friend in Detroit that shifted his 350 targetmaster motor at 7k with a manual and the short block is still good.

No offense to you, but you sound like a younger dude, nothing wrong with that, but when you buy a modded car, it's not going to be perfect. That car ran like a scalded bastard with a 12.03 @ 118 on street tires. You can't ask for anything more than that. I was going to buy it from him, but something came up. Trust me, a lot of thought, time, sweat, blood, money and cussing has gone into that car and putting it together. My car has gone through the same treatment, and ain't perfect, but runs no where near as good as his did.

To my knowledge, Brett knew nothing of the rod bearing problems. He said you and your dad sounded like you knew what he was talking about when he was explaining what was done to the car, but wasn't sure about your level of knowledge.

I helped him put the tranny and motor in the car, so let me know if you need any help. The ZZX cam is a good cam but pricey. I don't know if you will pick up anything with the 236-242 comp, that's the cam he had in there before and the car went 2 mph slower in the quarter with the same et on street tires. I have the flow bench numbers for those heads, and even dropped them off at the shop that ported them.

Speedomotive should be the ones that take the blame for the shortblock. I think I told him to check the clearances when the motor got there, but he was mad cause it was 3 weeks later than they said, and it didn't have the parts that he ordered on it, and he wanted to get it in the car. I've heard bad things about speedomotive, so that's why I wanted to check the clearances before it went into the car. He said they guaranteed their work so it went in the car.

No offense to you, your dad, the car, Brett or anyone in this post, but speedomotive. You should yell at them and see what you can get from them for your trouble. Another friend with an 88 IROC shifts at 6500 all day and has never had a problem, but he has a zz4 crate motor. If I ever get the money up, I'll still buy the car from you if it's for sale, he couldn't wait for me.

 

The only thing I'd change on the car is to move the msd box from under the car to inside the engine compartment, I don't think it is waterproof. If you mess with the combo, it won't run the same, and you can't beat a potential 11 sec car on street tires.

 

I too had a bad experience with speed-o-motive. Motor was way late and spun a rod bearing within a few hundred miles. Best I can tell is the rod was tapping on some pan rail flashing, I heard a faint tap on start up but thought it might be the Crane Hi-intensity lifters, basicallly variable duration lifters. Their customer service service sucks, pretty much told me I did something wrong since they never do.

 

PLENTY of stock (cast crank, stock rods, cast pistons) short block 350's spin to 7K for years without failure. Seems like the cast pistons & rings usually crack first.
I'm not saying I wouldn't go with Forged parts. I just don't think a cast crank is a problem at only 6500 rpm.

 

89gta383, thanks for the support and the info. First of all, I'm 24, about the same age as Brett, right? I guess that's young. Anyway, I never thought Brett was the kind of guy who would do somebody wrong when I talked to him and I felt the same way after meeting him. For some reason, I'm usually right about guesiing how good-willed a person is. In any case, after not even being able to get the car home, I have every motherfreak'n right to be as pissed. I don't give a darn about what kind of car you drive, not being able to get a new car home sucks, period. If I could have afforded it, a trailor would have been smarter. But you're right, when you buy a performance car, you're always taking a risk. Even with a 500mile brand newengine, a performance car is a risk.

The problem w/ the car was more likely the main caps on that engine, not the crank. All of that hp, probably stretched them some, which allowed the crank to move (walk) some.

I haven't even seen the car that much since I haven't been out to my friends very much, since the car's been parked, it's kind of far from me. I did go out there to load up the engine, once my nice friend pulled it for me.

The thing that's so depressing is that the only reason I dumped my Iroc and took a beating, is because it wasn't running right and I knew the engine needed to be pulled, so I wanted a car that was similar and hauled major ***. Of course the 91 did for about 500 miles, I didn't even drive that hard, maybe a handful of full throttle 3rd gear pulls, that's about it. I do agree about the MsD box being in an unsafe spot, my friend also alerted me about that.

The heads are awesome, and the raceshop guy said he couldn't get a customer a set for under 3k. Too bad they're the only part thats good on the block so far, besides all the stuff on the front of the motor.

The one thing I think should have been done though, is that cast crank should have been sent back to Sp.OMotive, if it was not what was ordered! To me that's unacceptable, I mean to have a cast crank in this kind of an engine. I should have looked at the reciepts more closely, since I was told by Brett that the crank was forged, before I bought the car. I'm pretty sure that's what I was told. Now look where buying a car w/ a cast crank has got me. Anyway, I don't hate Brett or blame him for this mishap. This whole thing isn't going to ruin my life by any means, cause I already know I've been blessed by *** in other areas of my life, no joke.

 

Oh yeah, I am going to mess w/ the combo, it's called 406, since the other block is a boat anchor. I'm going to run my 236/236 Comp custom grind. The valve timing events aren't all that much different. I have both cam cards for these cams. The extra tq and cubes will more than make up this petty difference in cams though.

 

I don't know, if the engine wasn't bad when you bought it, and when you decided to abuse it and it went bad,... that'd be your bad.
I don't know really what you expect him to do.
... 8k sounds like a pretty damn good deal.
Live and learn, the only other way youd' known for sure the engine was what it was, you would have bought your own Z and it made it the same way... which i bet would never happened.

 

i have a 2bolt main block with a factory crank in that was spun to 7300 for years before a bearing went.when it was ripped down we found that a cam lobe came off and that ruined the bearings.the block is actually in my car now no damage was checked by the machine shop and all good.i have also heard bad thigns from speedomotive and just from what i heard i wouldnt deal with them.hope everything turns out alright.kinda a bummer but its all good in the end.eric

 

Okay, what's your point? You're making assumptions about something you know nothing about, so please quit. Also, your last sentence doesn't even make sense.

Eric, thanks for the support. I've talked to Dave a gain on Sat, and he said he thinks that the crank was at fault, not the main caps. The crank flexed under the abuse it was taking over time after several 6500 rpm shifts. My main lesson is don't ever use a cast crank, at least a cast eagle crank, when spinning an engine this high. I don't care what kind of machine work or blueprinting was done.

 

btw i forgot to mention that motor had a stock forged crank in it.also it was a 2bolt main.

i understand what your going through with this as ive seen it quite a few times.only thing you can do is suck it up at this point and fix the car or sell it.it may or may not have been the builders or sellers fault.this is the kinda risk you take when buying a used vehicle of any sort.i not trying to bash on anyone or anything.its just now that it happened its to late to do anything.it sucks and all but arguing over whats at fault isnt going to make you feel much better.so in the last post it sous like speedomoive screwed up with the crank from the start.nothing that can be done now.sorry bout your luck and all but it happens to everyone eventually.eric

 

Brett ordered a fully forged kit from speedomotive, but for some reason, when the motor arrived at his house, it had a cast crank.

I told him to pull the pan and check the clearances, but he trusted speedomotive. Like I said, if there is any warranty at all through them, contact them and see what they can do. The shortblock was already assembled by them when it got there, and he didn't want to take it apart, so in the car it went. He was given a credit for the forged crank. They also didn't do something else I think, but I can't remember, you will have to send him an e-mail and find out if anything else was wrong, besides being 2 months later than they said it would be done, and shipping costing more than they quoted.

A cast crank can take more rpm than what it saw in the car, so it's the crank prep, or the assembly that messed up the block. See if speedomotive will give you another short block.

I didn't mean to offend you dude, the young thing was just from what he said about you dudes not really knowing what was wrong with the motor. He said you called him and said the motor blew up, and I said that doesn't sound right, if it was running right when you picked it up, that's all. Plus, me and him have put together more than one motor, and ripped apart each other's car enough to know that these cars are temperamental and by no means perfect, even if bought from someone else.

I will give you this, Brett wouldn never lie or try to screw you in any way, and was a picky bastard when dealing with that car, so it is in better shape than mine is. If he wasn't happy with something, he'd pull it back apart to change it, unlike me. I think he pulled the intake a couple of times to see if the afr hydra rev kit was worth the effort. He also changed cams, headers, and pulled the tranny and convertor more times than I can remember.

That car with the superram, unported trick flow heads and old set-up and drag radials was/is still faster than my car now, so he had his **** together.

 

I'll try getting talking to someone at Speed-o-motive tomorrow. I'm not expecting much though. I also have more good news (not), I had the heads fluxed and dissassembled. Five of the intake valves are bent, all of the other valves are okay. I'm glad the castings are alright, I could have been easily been out of major $$$ there. The guys at the shop were drooling over these heads, saying they would be good for 650hp N/A.

89gta383, I know the car was fast and that the owner obviously knew what he was doing, that's a major reason why I bought it. I also knew it had a crate bottem end, so I though it would last a little longer than it did. It just sucks now, I'm where I was w/ my old iroc, which I could never get to run right. But now I have a trustworthy machine shop doing any work I need done. HP is easily gained and lost in the short block prep.

 

I disagree with you there.

Horsepower is easily gained or lost with the combination as a whole.

That's why I said don't break up the combo he put together, 12.0's @ 118 on street tires was an 11.50 at 118-119 with traction, and that combo had 11.5's in it. That's why I said don't break up the combo, but it's your car now, so you make the call.

Trust me, throwing a pile of money at a car doesn't make it fast, the correct combination of parts and tuning does.

I've thrown away enough money on 2 different cars now to know that, but like they say, experience is your best teacher.

 

89GTA, I do want to refute you on your last post, in good fun of course. I didn't say power is gained or lost by way of the combo, I know that is obviously important. It is a fact though, that machining the shortblock is as important as any other thing you can do to an engine when building one. If you mess up on little things like not deciding to not check your ring gaps, get your block bored w/ a plate, not getting the mains aligned honed, or not finishing the cylinders w/ the correct cross hatch, your taking a huge risk for the possibility of your engine being a stone. You wanna example. My old car w/ a 219/SR/190 combo. It ran a 13.2 at 101, LOL. You know why? My cylinders weren't finished correctly, the rings were cast rings and they were re-used from the same engine, when it was unbalanced. I ended up having about 4 cylinders losing over 20% on the leakdown readings. This equated to about an 15-20% power loss. On a 440hp motor that's about 80hp. And you can see that in my 1/4 times. So the point is that this car I bought had all the stuff in the shortblock done right, except the cast crank. DOH! Anyway that combined w/ these awesome AFR heads are just as much as responsible for the hp as anything else. Of course matching all this to an aggressive cam, proper gearing, a high revving intake, is important also. Anyway, my final point is that you have to seal the pressure in the cylinders in order to make power, and having the right clearances throughout the block is very important to adding hp as well. How do you think that so many combos run better than others w/ the exact same combos? It's called engine prep and taking your time and triple checking all the engine building procedures.

I never said throwing money at a car makes it fast, I've know this before I ever modded either of my cars. I've been reading CHP since highschool, so this is a moot point.

I also don't think my Comp cam isn't going to take that much away from the combo when it had the ZZX cam. Remember there's a guy on (11SECZ) here that has the same combo as what mine was, who traps 123mph in the 1/4. My car has trapped about 118, but it wasn't perfect, but you are right, it does or did have potential w/ the zzx. My new cam specs are almost identical of when the valve opens, but it closes about 4 degs earlier. Thanks for the responses though, I do appreciate it. I also talked to another machine shop and they say the block is okay, I think the other guy just wanted my $$$, since he wanted me to go w/ a new block. THis all means that I'll be sticking w/ the 383.

 

Update: The block is good afterall, at least according to another shop. They said the chip on the bottom of the 3 cylinder won't hurt anything. It makes me wonder about Dave at Firestone. He just wanted my $$$ for a new block, I guess.

I also ordered a 4340 ESP Eagle crank from E-bay for $339 acouple days ago!! The mainn journals weren't perfect from Eagle so they turned them .010". Still this is a sweet deal. I think they have one more like this for sale, but you better hurry. I'll keep you guys informed on the build.

 

This may be late but I have been out doing things for a while. Those of you that know me know what I mean. First off I am sorry about the car. But I sold it to you in good faith and good running condition. When you first got in it I showed you the running oil pressure and the temp and other guages. After you took it on the test drive by your self you said the oil pressure was low. I told you that it was alwayse ten to fifteen lbs at idle. I never got in the car after that, so I don't know what it was at speed. But I also know that I could hear you mashing on it miles away from the house. I also told you I would do a compression test and a leak down test on the spot. When we were discussing price I also said I would keep the car if you didn't want to pay the full amount. If I thought there was any thing wrong with the car I would have negotiated. Plus five hours at 80+ which equals 3,000rpm can wear on a powerfull motor. As far as the crank goes I said it was a steel crank. Which is what I was told by Speed-O-Motive. They said it was more than adequite for what I wanted to do. I am not trying to say it is any ones fault. But I don't appreciate you using my name on the board. I did all that I could to help you out and all (liscense plate. which I need back). I do understand you are upset but that is not my fault. So please don't spread my name around like I screwed you. If you have any questions or any thing you want to say about me please E-Mail me. I will be more than glad to talk to you. Thanks.
Brett.

 

Brett, it's been a long time without hearing from you. I thought we left it at you were gonna call me. Maybe not. First of all I haven't been going around saying I got screwed by you, which you kinda implied. I have had nothing bad to say about you or the car, except that the valve springs were not correct and some other stuff that I can't say that I wouldn't have done myself. I more or less was just letting out frustration in the form of saying that I have bad luck more so than getting a bad deal. Of course anyone is naturally going think they got a bad deal when a car only lasts a couple hundred miles after buying it. You can't tell me you wouldn't be upset if your were me.

Another thing I'd like to say is, what is statement about me mashing the car about?? First of all the exhaust sounds like a nascar, second I only drove a half-mile down the road and third, anybody, I mean even a dumb idiot, is going to goose the car a little to see if runs, before buying it. This is really important, but you make it sound like I was tearing up the car, when actually you were the one taking it to the track and the local streets smashing everything, revving the car up to 6700+rpm. The car did run great, but the engine problem was not your fault at all. The pickup came off the pump, which along with the crank's pre-mature death is what contributed to the oil pressure dropping faster than I could bat an eyelash. I remember you said it had a steel crank, I took it as it had a forged crank. I don't know how I got the idea it was forged. Anyway, those cast cranks should last all day to 6500rpms. But as far as cranks are, I'll never run or advise anyone to run a cast Scat crank.

Bottom line is, I'm by no means mad at you. If I did say anything to offend you I'm sorry. I'm sure ya understand where I'm coming from. I still think I got a deal after everything's been said and done. I just wasn't looking foward to spending the extra $2100 to fix the motor and get new parts. I've been broke because of this incident for two months and I live at home right now, if that says much about my money tree, which is tiny. lol

Now that I've talked to you, I'll get ahold of you sometime, I just didn't feel comfortable before. I also forgot about the plate until I saw the car recently, but I'll talk to you about that later.

Joe

 

I hear what you are saying. The last message I left was three or four e-mails to you. But that is besides the point. I don't quite know what you mean about the wrong springs. But I am sorry that the thing crapped out on you. I just don't want you or any one else to think that I screwed you. Don't feel bad, the 69 I bought has a bent frame or the guy didn't bolt it back on right. I have $13,500 invested in that. I havn't been in touch because I have been gone. If you remember what I am talking about. Any way I hope you don't harbor any hard feelings because I don't. I hope you get the car up soon and it is faster than when I sold it to you. Keep me posted.

 

Cheapest insurance ever.

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...38&prmenbr=361

 

Both of you guys are still talking about this when it was speedomotive that put together a crappy short-block. I put mine together myself in the garage, and the oil pressure is 30 psi hot at idle and over 45 at anything more than idle. I may have tighter bearing clearances than that motor, but mine has been to 6500 more times than I can remember, and has also bounced off the rev limiter 5 times at 7000 rpm trying to get the tranny to shift right. Mine runs fine.

The motor was gonna give up regardless of who was driving it, it was not assembled correctly.

Moral of the story: don't buy assembled short-blocks from speed-o-motive.

 

True that.

 

That is true BJ...

so that mean you are ready to put mine together at your place???

From reading this thread and other stuff about Speed-o-motive i have to agree w/ 89gta383, and i personally won't buy a short block from them. that motor was going to go no matter who drove it or how it was driven.

 

Lethal, that's wierd that you mailed me and I never got one of them??? Maybe someone around here erased them before I got em, my email is accessible to anyone on this computer. Anyway, I'll call you sometime this week to chat. I'll try to find time since I"m working 40 hrs and going to school full time.

Now about the springs..I had the springs tested by a race shop. They tested at 225lbs of seat pressure closed. The max for a hyd roller spring is 130-140lbs closed according to Comp, TPIS, AFR, and a couple of shops I talked to. The springs that were on the heads must have been for use w/ a solid roller cam. I went ahead and ordered a set of Comp 950's, the same ones you used to run. I don't know if you were getting major float or what, but Comp and TPIS said these springs would be a great fit as long as they're installed at the correct height. Anyway, the lifters would have surely failed if I ran the solid roller springs much longer and you can actually see on the cam lobes where the lifters actually started to dig in. They didn't indent the lobes, it's a billet cam, but you can clearly see the marks. This means the lifters were being pressed way to hard by those springs, even w/ the rev kit. Speaking of the rev kit, how much did it help? If you or anyone knows how to install it, let me know. I don't know if I need that tool or what also? I had a shop disassemble the engine, so I"m not too sure about the rev kit. Later.

Joe

 

89gta383, Amen, I agree also. You know what the rod side clearance was... .050"! when it should of been .009-013". I found this out recently and I think this combined with the pickup failure is what killed the engine quick. The bottom end just couldn't keep enough oil in it. The all could be related to the cast crank, which could have been machined wrong, or the studs may have been improperly installed, or anything else speedomotive f'd up on. Oh well, I should start a nasty new post that's titled "speedomotive, builds $hit for engines".

 

Living out in here in So-Cal, I can say Speedo has been around for a looooooong time at least 25 years. I know of many people who have done business with them. I am one of them. When you get something from them "CHECK IT". Because you never know what you are going to get. I would NOT recommend speedo
for any serious high performance engine work.

 

Obviously...Another thing I forgot to say was that the crank in my block from spdomtv. was already turned .020"! I guess someone decided to take the forged crank Brett ordered originally and swap in some used pos scat crank. Geez.

 

Dude, the springs I put in there were Comp 950-16's. I installed them at 1.900. Maby the wrong springs ended up in the box. I had just had the heads rebuilt and just bought those springs. I can't believe the lifters lasted as long as they did. Check in the receipts and look for the springs. I orderd them in Dec or Jan. I didn't have a spring tester so I didn't know about the psi. It is only supposed to be 140lbs at 1.900. I had the valves and seats run when I did the rebuild also. I can't believe what I am hearing about the short block. This is all shocking to me. I can't believe it held together as long as it did. I think 89GTA has my tool for the hydrarev. But I am not sure. I would run it if you are going above 6,000rpm. You can see from the dyno charts where I was running into valve float before with the worn out 950's. It just goes to show that you have to check every thing your self. When this thing comes back together the right way you will deffinatly be in the low 120's. I can't believe I got it to go almost 119 untuned with all of these problems. Give me a call.

 

Wow, I can't believe it about the springs. I thought you were going into valve float with the 950's so you just said what the hell and got the SR springs. I should have figured that you would konw better.

Oh yeah, there's one more amazing thing about the crank that came in your engine, Brett. The cast Scat had already been turned .020"! SoMotive, screwed you big time with a used crank! I'd call and raise hell if I could. What time are you home? I'll call you soon.

 

I will be home this weekend. Give me all the details and some documentation about the engine and I will call them and try to recoupe some of the losses. I paid like $2,500 for that short block. That is bull $hit.

 

You will need something from the machine shop saying what they found. You may have to take them to court if they play stupid.

Joe,
I still have the hydra-rev tool, but you can also use some needle nose pliers and a screwdriver. E-mail me privately and give me your address if you want the tool.

 

It was easier to use the needle nose pliers and the screwdriver when me, you, and craig were working on yours BJ.

 

Thanks guys. Can you guys help me out and give me any kind of instructions on how to use the pliers and screwdriver to install the rev kit? This is all new to me.

 

It was kinda a figure out as you go type thing. If you already have the heads off the car, then you should be able to install the Rev-Kit as you are bolting the heads down. I think that 89gta383 said he did he that way once.

 

The heads all already bolted onto the car.

 

The cylinders where the lifter is down in the bore(not at full lift) is where you should put as many springs as you can to hold the plates in place. You can rotate the motor over to get the other lifters down in the bore and put the rest of the springs in. Use the pliers to squeeze half of the spring while putting the spring in the lifter bore. Guide the top or bottom of the spring in with the flat head screwdriver and you can push the spring with the screwdriver also. You will need another person to help you to make it easier, and watch your eyes, some of the springs will pop out if you don't catch them. You will see what I'm talking about when you start messing with it.

 

Just send him the tool bro. The other way will drive you nuts. I did it with the tool in about a half an hour by my self. You will need a screw driver with the tool also though. It is a learn as you go thing. I agree with that. Good luck.