ok so i am almost done with my tpi swap all i need to do is prime the oil pump, and put on the cap and wires. Now this is going to be the first time this motor will run with tpi and a new flat tappet cam. I already burped the fuel lines so there is no air to try and ensure proper startup. is there anything else that is important and i need to know? Im just a little concerned with it not starting right away because of the new cam/lifters before their break in period.

 

Some of the first TPI motors were flat tappet single pattern cams.
You probably know that, I see your car now haha! Just follow the
normal precautions for that tappet, and let her fire!

 

Ok so I got my car sort of running yesterday. It started relatively easy with minimal timing adjusting ran crappy for a few seconds then developed a huge fuel leak. When i rebuilt the fuel rail i forgot an oring on the pressure reg side. Attempt number 2: starts, wont idle, the second i touch the gas it stalls but if i let off it runs....mind you i need to keep the motor over 2k because of the new cam. luckily my friend who knows these cars better than his own hand heard a vacuum leak...my useless egr valve is causing a huge vacuum leak. so now i get to play the waiting game for the block off plate.

 

Did you use cam break in additive with zinc for the flat tappet cam? IIRC Shell still uses zinc in some of their oils for this purpose and for older engines.

 

I am using royal purple break in oil. 5 quarts. It hasnt been running long enough to break in the cam. But i made sure to keep the rpms high enough for the oil to get at the cam. so it should be ok.

 

i have a block off plate if you still need 1, i just cut off an old egr valve top and welded the base shut, ground it flat and painted it semi gloss black, have an extra egr gasket sitting around to if you like.

5$ and shipping and its yours let me know.

 

Thank you for the offer, i just ordered one from billet specialties. it was like $10 or somethings, comes with bolts and gasket. I just hope thats the problem...although i havent heard a vacuum leak that loud come from a little hose.

 

I hope she fires up and idles for you soon, can
only imagine the anticipation you are feeling!!

 

yeah the first 5 seconds of it running was so relieving....because it was my first time with a cam and head swap and to add onto that the tpi swap into a factory carbed car. took a few months with school and work but it runs...sort of lol hopefully its just that stupid valve. cant wait to hear and drive it. My buddy who was helping me said that the cam is def noticeable in the exhaust. that made me happy

 

well as of right now i am sorry i ever did this tpi swap. The motor wont start. just cranks. Timing is dead on, it has fuel, i tried 3 different coils, all the sensors are new. the only time i got it started today was when i first tried, it stumbled and as soon as i touched the gas it died and it has not ran since. I tried two computers, both work because the motor ran (crappy) with both of them. I fixed all the vacuum leaks that i could find. so i am at a loss. my friend who knows tpi really well is stumped. Im just really pissed off because every sensor on that motor is brand new and i purposely did that so i could avoid this.

 

Im sorry for your troubles, but even replacing equipment with
new gear is never a guarantee for a headache free build.

Given ive pulled 3 TPI motors out of my '89 during my boyhood, Id check
your fuel pump operation, she should prime the rail up before you even try
to crank it. Also, double check your grounds to the back of your cylinder
heads.. Ive had those come loose before and a bunch of issues came up.

Check your injector bank fuses as well.

I know I wouldnt want force the engine to run with a new cam/lifter
combo with starting fluid. But, that is a nice litmus test to eliminate
what is preventing it from firing. Will it start with some assistance?


My guess its electrical.

 

ah i apologize to ya guys about that last post, just a little stressed with finals and my crappy job and my friend hacks these cars together and they run. i tried to do mine the right way and it doesnt.

I havent tried starting fluid i am already pushing my luck with the cranking and no fire. Im really trying to keep it at a minimum. I think i need to check the ground on the back of the cyl head. i did put new eye hooks on the wires and made sure the ground strap was good. I did notice that when i moved the dizzy i heard a clicking noise then it sounded like pressure was released. but i couldnt duplicate it. after that i got a pop or two but nothing special. I have this feeling its injector related. Power should be good because i wired it into the stock location on the fuse panel and made sure they had power at one point.

The fuel pump works i hear it every time i turn the key. I do smell gas on the passenger side of the motor tho, its not the lines because i have 89 camaro lines that run on the drivers side with the serp set up.

Speaking of grounds, besides the 3 wires that bolt to the passenger head are there any others i may have overlooked?

 

ok so i checked a lot of things today. injectors tested at 16.5 ohms +/- .1. the grounds are all good. ignition timing is perfect.

now i really didnt want it to resort to this butttttt i used a little carb cleaner to see if everything checked out...well i used just enough to get a cough out of it so my ignition and timing are good. so that leaves fuel. The pump is brand new. I checked the schrader valve and there is no pressure. The fuel pump is def priming and running while the car is cranking like it should. I tried priming it a few times then pressing on the valve....nothing. So i am assuming my fuel pressure regulator is shot. Tomorrow i will try and change it with an adjustable one i have that is brand new. I wanted to get the car running before messing with the pressure reg but all well.

 

Well that is good news, you should have got blasted in the eye with a nice
jetsteam of fuel from the schader.. Joking of course but, the effect should be
there.

Hopefully the fpr swap does the trick!

 

yeah i was kinda disappointed that i didnt get my gasoline shower lol as soon as the rain lets up im gonna swap it and see, i bought a fuel pressure gauge so i can set the adjustable fpr.

 

well i changed the regulator...the old one looked good so that wasnt the problem. So i checked to see if an injector was sticking open or something. nope looked good, no leaks or anything with pressure applied. So i hooked up my fuel pressure gauge and the pressure goes up to 42 like it should but as soon as the pump stops working the pressure falls to zero just as fast as it climbed up.

So i have a shop manual and i looked it up. It said to crimp the soft hoses after pressure was applied to hold pressure on the fuel rail to find the leak. ok did that and there was a small leak. ok cool ill just fix it and go from there.

The bad part.... fixed the leak, the return line wasnt seated correctly in the fpr. So i tried the hose crimp again and the fuel rail stayed at the 42 psi of pressure for about 5 min then i took off the clamp and the pressure was lost immediately. The book then states faulty fuel pump because pressure should be held for about a min or so. i verified the pressure on another car and it held it for about a minute unlike mine.

So i have come to the conclusion the brand new fuel pump that i just installed is now bad. there is no other leaks in the lines, its dry all the back to the tank. the lines are basically new (off an 89 gta with 50k miles) the fuel filter is new as well.

the fun part begins, im returning that autozone pos pump getting my money back, and i have an ac delco pump on the way and bosch 3 injectors since its apart.

 

Update:

Put the new fuel pump in, what a difference. The motor started, not easily but it started. I did the break in period on the cam after the computer smoothed out so it would run.

The next problem is it wont idle on its own, the spark plug wires are shot and its created several grounds so there is no spark to a few cylinders and a backfire from in accurate spark.

on the plus side, the motor sounds great its louder with the new heads and cam, so im going to changed the wires tonight and go from there.

thanks for all your help

 

Congrats! I bet she is a beast.. Definitely gets some wires
and button 'em up all nice, pretty & separated!

 

ok, so i had some brand new autozone special wires laying around so i figured for research purposes they will be ok for now. Well put them on and nothing changed. it was a little smoother but still wont idle and as soon as i hit the gas it wants to die and does most of the time. its def getting gas. dont know how much, no ses light. it feels like its only running on a few cyls.... tomorrow i am going to loosen the rockers by 1 turn i have a feeling they are too tight because when i put the rollers on my carbed engine i made them too tight but it wouldnt even start because the valves where just open and no compression.

I set the rockers about a week after i put the cam in so im thinking the oil is now pumped up and over extending the rocker arm causing the valve to be open a little. If its not that then i am out of ideas. the only other thing is the coil... but why would it run slightly better at a higher rpm? there still is a back fire through the exhaust and intake so i advanced the timing a little...nothing. Oh and the motor gets really hot really fast. it was running for all of a minute and the exhaust was really really hot.

I know its a little late to be asking this, but i was told by several members that my cam is ok for a stock tune. not the best for stock but it will run and benefit from a tune.

Here are the cam specs: lunati 60101 lsa is 112, duration @.050 is 213in 219ex

any ideas?

 

The valves are good. i changed the coil and i still get the same ****. all it does now is crank a few puts then nothing. its getting fuel. when i can get it running. i need to stay on the gas and it wont idle. giving it gas kills it so i have to feather it. Also it pops through the intake and through the exhaust. Im thinking its ignition related but what else could cause this?

can anyone help?

almost forgot, i have tried 3 different computers with different proms and i get the same result.

 

Popping huh? When my pump slowly died my car spit and popped until she
didnt run anymore. But, that only happened at higher rpm when the pump
struggled to deliver. Yours is new, so unlikely that is whats happening now.

Stock timing dont mean crap with a aftermarket cam, and your profile cam
wouldnt 'cause that much trouble in a untuned state, retard/advance it some
and see if it smooths out.. I dont follow factory timing procedures anymore after
my build/cam. It just didnt work, It was sluggish. I advance/retard as necessary,
take a pull down the road and if shes pings, I back it off.

Hows your injectors ohm out hot/cold? Is the 9th injector
operating? It must be something simple, it is just hiding from you!

 

the injectors all check out, i actually have bosch 3's im going to put in when it gets running. I have the 86 shop manual from gm so i have been following that. i checked the injectors/fuel pump. I think the computer isnt getting a strong enough reference signal or its intermittent because when it cranks the fuel pump does run but the car only really fires after it shuts off and it only has a few cyls want to fire.

I think the pick up coil is going/bad. because i tried to crank the car with a test light hooked up to the reference wire from the dizzy and i got nothing. it should have been blinking like crazy.

The book also mentioned the tps... but i tried two of them and same result, im replacing it with a gm one anyways just to be sure.

I got it running sorta yesterday, it didnt want to fire up, i had to keep on and off the gas to get it to run. as soon as i hit the gas it wants to die and if i hold it it runs but it pops and backfires through the intake and exhaust then just wants to die. It did idle down from 3krpm to about 2k rpm smoothy for a second or two but then that was it, so that leads me to believe the cam is ok and it on the right phase with the motor. Im really at a loss for options. I have no idea what else could do this.

 

ok im getting spark, the pick up coil is fine timing is close to where it should be, enough to run.

I got it running but constantly on the gas and it wont idle on its own. when giving it throttle it lags and wants to die but eventually picks up. when i tried to restart it the timing sounded wayyyy advanced. If i held the petal to the floor it would then start. Also it would start run smooth for a second or two then die.

So i am thinking the fuel injectors might be 350 ones. I got them from a friend he thought they were from a 305. I have bosch 3s that are from FIC for the lb9 so tomorrow i will put those in and go from there.

 

I once swapped out my injectors, and when reassembling i used the drivers side TPI runner gasket on the passenger side. it would not idle unless the mass was unplugged. turns out it was sucking in air because my gaskets were flipped and were not sealing correctly

 

well that is part of my problem, i switched the lower runner gaskets for the 9th injector....huge leak. Fixed that. lol

I also put in the new bosch injectors today. I tried starting the car but got nothing. The batt was really weak starting so i need to jump it again, ran out of daylight so i will try again tomorrow and see what comes of it.

 

still nothing. the plugs are pretty fouled tho, did a quick clean and got nothing. not even a pop. its def getting fuel tho because the plugs were wet. i think i need to clean the plugs better and mess with timing again. i dont know. not very happy at the moment.

 

did u check firing order? spark plugs/wires, maf operation, vacuum
leaks

cheers

 

firing order is good because it ran before i changed the injectors. its getting fuel, the plugs were wet. I just think with half a dead batt, a little flooding and fouled plugs it didnt start. going to look at it later in the week.

 

ok so i got it running today, i cleaned up the plugs let the engine air out because it was flooded. The problem was the ECU, the one i had was shot so i tried another and it fired right up...with help but it runs and idles on its own.

Its running really really rich tho :/ and the idle surges so im going to replace the coil, swap modules and new wires. I think that should do the trick. Anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks

 

ok really need some help with this here guys,

I got the car running today again...runs like crap, barely starts. Barely idles very very choppy and stalls. I unplug the 'bypass' connector so i can check timing and i start it up and runs smooth and really good. ok so i set the timing it was a little off. plug the connector back in and start it same thing, runs like crap wont idle barely starts. so im thinking either ignition module? or ESC module? i have 3 of them but im not sure from what cars so im at a loss with that and they all have 5 pins while my harness only has 4 wires out of the 5 and the shop manual only shows 4 wires/pins not 5 :/

so any ideas???

btw with the 'bypass' unplugged the car runs like a champ not perfect but well. it has excellent throttle response but it stalls when stopping and is a pita to start again :/

 

anyone have any ideas?

 

on my car, somehow my harmonic balancer got shifted. i could never get it to run when i set it 6*btdc. the only way was estimating. when i got time i threw a piston stop on #1, marked a new line on the timing tab at 0*, set it to 6*, plugged the est and its been fine since

 

yeah i know what you mean, but my timing mark is ok because it was off from before my swap, so when i threw in the new cam i fixed that. The car runs and idles great with the current timing....just not with the est connected and its a real pita to start i almost have to kill the batt to get it to start but most of the time i need a jumper car.

Does anyone know what controls spark advance?

 

Ok I figured it out!!!

The pick up coil on the dizzy was shot. The car would run but only with the bypass disconnected and the shop manual said to replace the pick up coil. So i did with a gm one and got the timing close to where it would run and presto it runs great. It surges and jumps under light loads but i think that has to do with my speedo cable not being connected because its broken But higher rpms its great, it really really moves and its not even fine tuned yet. I hope to get some track times soon, I am hoping for low 14s on street tires.

Thanks for all the help!