When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
For years Ive been trying to figure a high idle / ALWAYS rich condition and now suspect the previous owner put larger injectors as part of his "upgrades" and that may be causing the high idle / rich exhaust. Is there anyway to identify if they are 305 or 350 injectors? I got a 87 305 TPI. Ive set the idle back down but after a few starts, or after running for a bit the ECM always raises the idle up high to around 1200 - 1500 RPM.
Everything else seems pretty stock though. I checked and replaced practically every sensor. The injectors look like the factory original style injectors but are black. I heard 305 injectors were more of a gray?
Car runs great except the high idle and horribly rich smelling exhaust. .
Does anybody have insight or thought? Maybe they are stick 350 but dumping too much fuel?
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
thought Id thrown in a parts list of stuff I changed. I changed within the last year hoping to fix the issue but mainly cause the old parts were kinda worn / ugly. and I did it for reliability / age rather than them being broken:...aside the CTS cause I accidentally broke that one lol Car has about 60K miles
1. TPS (set to .54)
2. CTS
3. IAT (under plenum)
4. o2
5. IAC (did the isle reset)
6. ICM
7. Plugs
8. Caps / rotor / wires
9. Thermostat
10. Removed some air foil thing the previous owner put in the throttle body
Also swapped ECM / PROM cause I had them and it still idles high.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
When encountering a high idle on ANY vehicle, remember that the engine can only idle high if it gets enough AIR to do so. Changing the fueling only makes extremely minor overall changes in idle rpm. Timing makes larger changes, but if you cut off the engine's air supply it dies regardless of fuel or timing. Rest assured you have too much airflow getting though or around the throttle blade.
As to the injectors. Sort out your airflow and then check your fuel pressure, BLM, and INT then decide if you may in fact have the wrong injectors.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder
When encountering a high idle on ANY vehicle, remember that the engine can only idle high if it gets enough AIR to do so. Changing the fueling only makes extremely minor overall changes in idle rpm. Timing makes larger changes, but if you cut off the engine's air supply it dies regardless of fuel or timing. Rest assured you have too much airflow getting though or around the throttle blade.
As to the injectors. Sort out your airflow and then check your fuel pressure, BLM, and INT then decide if you may in fact have the wrong injectors.
GD
Good idea! I overlooked vacuum leaks. thanks!
Are there any common areas? I did a search and found its hard to find vacuum areas on these motors.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by southbay08
They should be on the top of the injectors...on that round part
Ok thanks! i'll check when I get back home tonight. I noticed one cylinder was misfiring (pulled the plug wire, no idle change) and I think one of the injectors was clogged so I tapped the injector and also ran some seafoam / techron in the tank and that seems to have cleared it up a bit.
I was just looking at these on your website actually last week if I need to replace them:
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by southbay08
They should be on the top of the injectors...on that round part
Well, I tried looking and there are no numbers. I'll have to maybe try clean it off or something but I looked pretty hard and found none.
Is it on the top by the connector? I didn't see any there. Or is it on the body itself? I didn't see any there too unless its rotated under the plenum side?
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Doesn't sound like an injector problem. More a vacuum leak or faulty sensor that tricks the ecm into elevated idle. You need a scan tool and datalog to see what's going on.
Cheers
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by SbFormula
Doesn't sound like an injector problem. More a vacuum leak or faulty sensor that tricks the ecm into elevated idle. You need a scan tool and datalog to see what's going on.
Cheers
I actually did just order a scan tool that can read OBD1 hopefully it gets here soon!
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by SbFormula
Doesn't sound like an injector problem. More a vacuum leak or faulty sensor that tricks the ecm into elevated idle. You need a scan tool and datalog to see what's going on.
Cheers
Check for leaks where the runners meet the base. There is a chance that when the PO changed the injectors he did not get the gaskets sealed properly (ask me how I know). 1200-1500- is very high and you will have to be sucking in a descendent amount of air for it to run @ that RPM during idle, more than a small leak in the vacuum system. Just mist some either (starting fluid) where the runners meet the base and if you have a leak the car will start to die as it sucks the either into the base.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by 1989karr
I actually did just order a scan tool that can read OBD1 hopefully it gets here soon!
Some info off hand to get you thinking and researching. Take your time to read it multiple times. It might take a while to sink in.
I assume OEM set up with OEM .BIN (tune).
***** added info *****
WARNING: If injectors were changed without modifying .BIN (tune), it renders the diagnosis more complicated because of the following:
305 injectors ar 19lbs/hr
350 injectors are 24lbs/hr
That's 26% increase in size. If the .BIN file was not adjusted for bigger injectors, to compensate the ecm would have (in theory) to reduce injectors BPW by 21%. Taking into account voltage compensation, it may be more around 12-15% reduction for final BPW at idle. That would most likely cause problem at start-up and open loop with rich condition. While in close loop though, ecm might be able to handle it at idle but for Mid throttle/rpm, it would be closer to 20% which should trigger a code. At idle, that could create a low BPW (under 1.5ms). Scan tool might not show final BPW. At WOT (power enrichment), you would definitely be pig rich!!! Again, this would be irrelevant for high idle issue but would cause major headache in trying diagnosing the problem.
************************
Check out what the IAC is doing. Throttle body could stick a bit which would create high idle. In that case the IAC would go to 0. That would mean IAC is maxed out (closed) and can’t lower idle anymore. Would probably trick the ecm in thinking you are feathering the gas pedal. Check TPS reading.
A vacuum leak will cause MAF (1987 models are MAF) to read lower than normal as the air is bypassing it. In close loop, at idle, that would get the integrator/BLM to compensate (richen) as more air is going in than what the MAF is indicating. Don’t ask me what a normal MAF reading is at idle as I forgot the general rule for that. Look it up on the internet.
In open loop, there is no compensation from the integrator so a vacuum leak would have the engine run leaner in theory unless some BLM have been stored to richen AFR.
Look at what SA is doing. Should pull timing trying to reach target idle rpm. Unless target idle rpm is elevated for unknown reason. Don’t ask me what normal SA should be at idle. Depends or your settings. Fully warm engine could be 20* +/- 5* for idle rpm compensation. But that could be more or less. Look it up for your year model and TPi system.
Look at MAT(IAT) and CT sensor readings. If faulty it could trigger the ecm in thinking it’s really cold thus increasing target idle rpm. TPI systems have a CT sensor for ECM and one for dash gauge. The latter is irrelevant for ecm. It could also prevent close loop operation if sensor indicates too cold temp.
For vacuum leak check all rubber hoses: HVAC, cruise control, PCV, EVAP, fuel pressure regulator, EGR (all i can think of for now)
You mentioned “ALWAYS rich condition”. When? At start up and open loop? During normal close loop operation? How do you know it’s rich? It should not be rich in close loop as the integrator/BLM will correct the AFR unless it gets out of compensation range which would trigger an SES code (BLM over 15%). If it runs rich all the time, something is definitely wrong.
O2 sensor, if at OEM location, reads one bank. if something goes wrong with the other bank that could cause rich/lean conditions because 02 sensor won’t detect it. Check 02 sensor location. Sometimes it’s relocated on cylinder #1 for headers. That’s bad set up that leaves 7 cylinders unmonitored.
Faulty injectors could cause rich/lean conditions because of the 02 sensor inability to detect it. However it has nothing to do with high idle.
You changed pretty much all sensors, however it does not address the wires and connectors. New sensors could still send a bad signal if wires and connectors are faulty.
You mentioned “I’ve set the idle back down”. Now that’s concerning because it now makes diagnosis more complicated. You should never have to adjust idle with OEM TPI. Any adjustment will be compensated by IAC and SA. To adjust, you need a fully warm engine with disconnect IAC fully closed and EST bypassed. Only than, idle screw can be adjusted to 400-500 or 600 rpm. I don’t remember off hand. Depends on AT or MT.
A vacuum leak could increase rpm way more than 1500 rpm. A big vaccum leak would have the MAF read near 0 and get the engine rpm higher if ecm is able to compensate for more fuel. Otherwise it would stall. Target idle rpm is limited by IAC range which maxes out around 1500 rpm if i remember correctly. That could be an indicator that the ecm is actually commanding a high idle based on faulty information. Hope your scanning tool can show you what target idle rpm is. That’s key here!!!
TPI systems are sensitive Queens. One little thing goes wrong and it throws a temper tantrum.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by vinny R
Check for leaks where the runners meet the base. There is a chance that when the PO changed the injectors he did not get the gaskets sealed properly (ask me how I know). 1200-1500- is very high and you will have to be sucking in a descendent amount of air for it to run @ that RPM during idle, more than a small leak in the vacuum system. Just mist some either (starting fluid) where the runners meet the base and if you have a leak the car will start to die as it sucks the either into the base.
Im waiting on a smoke machine but I did try to shoot the base, / intake area and so far no change. Is it odd that the car sometimes idles pretty good and wil randomly shoot up? I noticed its doing it a lot less though.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by SbFormula
Some info off hand to get you thinking and researching. Take your time to read it multiple times. It might take a while to sink in.
I assume OEM set up with OEM .BIN (tune). Yes, I believe its more less stock. I swapped computers / PROM with a known stock one and it runs exactly the same!
***** added info *****
WARNING: If injectors were changed without modifying .BIN (tune), it renders the diagnosis more complicated because of the following:
305 injectors ar 19lbs/hr
350 injectors are 24lbs/hr
That's 26% increase in size. If the .BIN file was not adjusted for bigger injectors, to compensate the ecm would have (in theory) to reduce injectors BPW by 21%. Taking into account voltage compensation, it may be more around 12-15% reduction for final BPW at idle. That would most likely cause problem at start-up and open loop with rich condition. While in close loop though, ecm might be able to handle it at idle but for Mid throttle/rpm, it would be closer to 20% which should trigger a code. At idle, that could create a low BPW (under 1.5ms). Scan tool might not show final BPW. At WOT (power enrichment), you would definitely be pig rich!!! Again, this would be irrelevant for high idle issue but would cause major headache in trying diagnosing the problem.
************************
Check out what the IAC is doing. Throttle body could stick a bit which would create high idle. In that case the IAC would go to 0. That would mean IAC is maxed out (closed) and can’t lower idle anymore. Would probably trick the ecm in thinking you are feathering the gas pedal. Check TPS reading. IAC position according to Scanner is at 56...I don't have anything to compare it to though, I rest the TPS to .54 I even replaced it with another one I had. The oriinal was set off but it basically runs smoother but stil la higher idle.
A vacuum leak will cause MAF (1987 models are MAF) to read lower than normal as the air is bypassing it. In close loop, at idle, that would get the integrator/BLM to compensate (richen) as more air is going in than what the MAF is indicating. Don’t ask me what a normal MAF reading is at idle as I forgot the general rule for that. Look it up on the internet. The MAF reading from the scan tool shows TWO thousand gr/S..I thought this could be it, as its reading high air flow so the computers dumping more fuel, but disconected it actualyl reads higher at 3K.....somone in my other post regarding that said the scan tool (BOSCH 1300) probably isn;t calibrated well for OBD1 cars so its prolly a scanner error...dang it.
In open loop, there is no compensation from the integrator so a vacuum leak would have the engine run leaner in theory unless some BLM have been stored to richen AFR.
Look at what SA is doing. Should pull timing trying to reach target idle rpm. Unless target idle rpm is elevated for unknown reason. Don’t ask me what normal SA should be at idle. Depends or your settings. Fully warm engine could be 20* +/- 5* for idle rpm compensation. But that could be more or less. Look it up for your year model and TPi system. Hmm I think the scanner can read this.
Look at MAT(IAT) and CT sensor readings. If faulty it could trigger the ecm in thinking it’s really cold thus increasing target idle rpm. TPI systems have a CT sensor for ECM and one for dash gauge. The latter is irrelevant for ecm. It could also prevent close loop operation if sensor indicates too cold temp. These readings al lseemes pretty normal according to the scanner. The only one that caugfht my eye was the MAF but that could be the scanner?
For vacuum leak check all rubber hoses: HVAC, cruise control, PCV, EVAP, fuel pressure regulator, EGR (all i can think of for now) (I have a smoke machine coming so I can do a more thorough check although an intial check shows no vacuum leaks....also the car sometimes idles normal....and wil lrandomly shoot up and stay at high idle I noticed. In drive though it doesn;t do this,...just in park / N
You mentioned “ALWAYS rich condition”. When? At start up and open loop? During normal close loop operation? How do you know it’s rich? It should not be rich in close loop as the integrator/BLM will correct the AFR unless it gets out of compensation range which would trigger an SES code (BLM over 15%). If it runs rich all the time, something is definitely wrong. Start up, idle, drive warm, cold etc.. .it really burns the eyes. no SES light. I noticed on the scanner it shows lean and rich then lean and goes back to rich a lot in closed or open loop..scaner was really a good investment
O2 sensor, if at OEM location, reads one bank. if something goes wrong with the other bank that could cause rich/lean conditions because 02 sensor won’t detect it. Check 02 sensor location. Sometimes it’s relocated on cylinder #1 for headers. That’s bad set up that leaves 7 cylinders unmonitored. Stock O2 on the driver manifold. Just replaced it recently with delco unit too...runs the same!
Faulty injectors could cause rich/lean conditions because of the 02 sensor inability to detect it. However it has nothing to do with high idle. I kinda suspect its the ORIGINAL 305 injectors...or if its been swapped original 350 injectors based on what they look like..I just cant find part numbersor the part numbers are on the side I can;t see.......I read lots of articles about them being junk.
You changed pretty much all sensors, however it does not address the wires and connectors. New sensors could still send a bad signal if wires and connectors are faulty. iwas wondering about that but so far it looks like the signals ar ok according to the scanner...minus the MAF. I'll attach a pic later.
You mentioned “I’ve set the idle back down”. Now that’s concerning because it now makes diagnosis more complicated. You should never have to adjust idle with OEM TPI. Any adjustment will be compensated by IAC and SA. To adjust, you need a fully warm engine with disconnect IAC fully closed and EST bypassed. Only than, idle screw can be adjusted to 400-500 or 600 rpm. I don’t remember off hand. Depends on AT or MT. I adjusted the TPS to .54 when i repalced it (I think it was replaced at some time with a no name brand part) and adjusted the idle when I repalced the IAC using the procedure on the site...it idles BEAUTIFUL but then later the computer or whatever kicks in and raises the idle...so that's pretty frustrating haha
A vacuum leak could increase rpm way more than 1500 rpm. A big vaccum leak would have the MAF read near 0 and get the engine rpm higher if ecm is able to compensate for more fuel. Otherwise it would stall. Target idle rpm is limited by IAC range which maxes out around 1500 rpm if i remember correctly. That could be an indicator that the ecm is actually commanding a high idle based on faulty information. Hope your scanning tool can show you what target idle rpm is. That’s key here!!!
TPI systems are sensitive Queens. One little thing goes wrong and it throws a temper tantrum.
That's all i can think of for now
Cheers
thanks for the info! Man this car has been SUPER sensitive! The most concerning thing to me wa the MAFreading 2000 plus but I was told that the scanner was prolly wrong / not really set up for OBD1 cars and may need updating which makes sense...but if the MAF reads 2K won't the car also increase fuel?...hmm
I noticed the idle seems to be more "normal". maybe I wil ldisconnect the battery agai nand see if it needs to be reset, Its stil lrich though....
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by 1989karr
thanks for the info! Man this car has been SUPER sensitive! The most concerning thing to me wa the MAFreading 2000 plus but I was told that the scanner was prolly wrong / not really set up for OBD1 cars and may need updating which makes sense...but if the MAF reads 2K won't the car also increase fuel?...hmm
I noticed the idle seems to be more "normal". maybe I wil ldisconnect the battery agai nand see if it needs to be reset, Its stil lrich though....
The MAF grams per second CANNOT be anywhere close to 2k. It's programmatically impossible as it is stored inside the ECM memory as an 8 bit value. It therefore can only be 0 to 255. That's it. And if it was anywhere even close to the upper end of that spectrum the engine would be so rich it would drown in fuel and stall. So the scan tool you are using is flat out wrong. Period. Normal MAF idle grams per second is about 5 to 7.
Grams per second roughly translates to rear wheel HP. They are surprisingly close in practice. The fuel system isn't capable of 2000 RWHP worth of fuel. It's barely capable of 255 RWHP worth of fuel in stock form. That's why there was no need for a larger MAF reading than 255.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by 1989karr
thanks for the info! Man this car has been SUPER sensitive!
Sensitive is an understatement! I've been through a lot with mine and I still learn everytime a problem arises with my TPI. I actually don't use a scan tool but a software. I used Datamaster for a while and now I use TunerPro RT. It gives me access to so much information and datalogging (see screenshot for SD system). It would be nice if you could data log and capture what's going on when the idle is ok and then spikes. It could be an intermittent problem which is a pain. You're on the right track though. You'll figure it out. It is very time consuming. Slapping parts at it like most shop do is not the answer. It's complexe and takes time period!
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by 1989karr
Start up, idle, drive warm, cold etc.. .it really burns the eyes. no SES light. I noticed on the scanner it shows lean and rich then lean and goes back to rich a lot in closed or open loop..scaner was really a good investment
O2 sensor voltage will always swing from lean to rich in closed loop. It should be a consistent swing. It's called O2 cross count. The swing is slower in idle mode. In open loop and PE, the 02 sensor is not taken into consideration, so the ecm is blind. You should be richer in open loop and closed loop but not to a point of soot and eyes burning. Best way to see if you're too rich is spark plug and O2 sensor inspection. Overly rich condition will blacken the hell out of them (dry not wet black). Scanner might not be able to catch that swing. Can you see the BLM on your scanner? That would probably be called something like Fuel Trim in percentage +/-. Also, would be nice to get the Target Idle RPM. That's the only way you'll know if the ecm is commanding an elevated idle or the idle is elevated compared to target. Again, if you could datalog, we could see what's going on.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by 1989karr
I read lots of articles about them being junk.
I know the MULTEC from 89-92 are prone to failure with age. I've been through it. They will cause all kinds of trouble. I don't know for 1987. I think they were different brand but don't quote me on that. It's not a bad idea to replace them after 33 years. However, make sure you get one that has the data sheet with them as you might need to recalibrate your tune (.BIN) for voltage and low PW compensation.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder
The MAF grams per second CANNOT be anywhere close to 2k. It's programmatically impossible as it is stored inside the ECM memory as an 8 bit value. It therefore can only be 0 to 255. That's it. And if it was anywhere even close to the upper end of that spectrum the engine would be so rich it would drown in fuel and stall. So the scan tool you are using is flat out wrong. Period. Normal MAF idle grams per second is about 5 to 7.
Grams per second roughly translates to rear wheel HP. They are surprisingly close in practice. The fuel system isn't capable of 2000 RWHP worth of fuel. It's barely capable of 255 RWHP worth of fuel in stock form. That's why there was no need for a larger MAF reading than 255.
Now do you understand? Scan tool is on CRACK.
GD
Yeah, im so sad
its updated, but I sent a question / inquiry to BOSCH so we'll see!
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by SbFormula
Sensitive is an understatement! I've been through a lot with mine and I still learn everytime a problem arises with my TPI. I actually don't use a scan tool but a software. I used Datamaster for a while and now I use TunerPro RT. It gives me access to so much information and datalogging (see screenshot for SD system). It would be nice if you could data log and capture what's going on when the idle is ok and then spikes. It could be an intermittent problem which is a pain. You're on the right track though. You'll figure it out. It is very time consuming. Slapping parts at it like most shop do is not the answer. It's complexe and takes time period!
Hmm, I think somebody mentioned this in another post. Is this free and you just need the cable to a laptop right?
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by SbFormula
O2 sensor voltage will always swing from lean to rich in closed loop. It should be a consistent swing. It's called O2 cross count. The swing is slower in idle mode. In open loop and PE, the 02 sensor is not taken into consideration, so the ecm is blind. You should be richer in open loop and closed loop but not to a point of soot and eyes burning. Best way to see if you're too rich is spark plug and O2 sensor inspection. Overly rich condition will blacken the hell out of them (dry not wet black). Scanner might not be able to catch that swing. Can you see the BLM on your scanner? That would probably be called something like Fuel Trim in percentage +/-. Also, would be nice to get the Target Idle RPM. That's the only way you'll know if the ecm is commanding an elevated idle or the idle is elevated compared to target. Again, if you could datalog, we could see what's going on.
Hmm, I need to look into this. I believe I saw those readings on the scanner. But like GD said, seems its not that good for OBD1 vehicles (regarding the MAF reading it gave)
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by SbFormula
I know the MULTEC from 89-92 are prone to failure with age. I've been through it. They will cause all kinds of trouble. I don't know for 1987. I think they were different brand but don't quote me on that. It's not a bad idea to replace them after 33 years. However, make sure you get one that has the data sheet with them as you might need to recalibrate your tune (.BIN) for voltage and low PW compensation.
I kinda see it as a maintenance thing at this age, but the car is low mileage, around 59K give or take since the odometer broke a while ago and its hardly been driven (just got the odometer working) but injectors are hard to change on this motor haha
I want to get the ones from south bay. The direct Delphi replacements but they are so $$$ plus it looks like a pain to change out..but I agree that 33 year old injectors are probably not working as they should.
I have one of those paint can smoke machines coming in soon so I want to see if there are any vacuum leaks as well!
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by SbFormula
Sensitive is an understatement! I've been through a lot with mine and I still learn everytime a problem arises with my TPI. I actually don't use a scan tool but a software. I used Datamaster for a while and now I use TunerPro RT. It gives me access to so much information and datalogging (see screenshot for SD system). It would be nice if you could data log and capture what's going on when the idle is ok and then spikes. It could be an intermittent problem which is a pain. You're on the right track though. You'll figure it out. It is very time consuming. Slapping parts at it like most shop do is not the answer. It's complexe and takes time period!
BTW, how do you get this? Its just download the software, hook up cable to laptop / car and you can read data?
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by 1989karr
thanks!
Now, you could always try running an old version of Datamaster if you could find the definition for your car. Maybe you could download it online. I think you had a limit of 20 datalog with no licence and no limit on monitoring. It works on my Windows 8.1. Not sure if it works on Windows 10. It's a simpler software, almost plug and play. It's very limited though compare to TunerproRT but could do the trick if you're in need of fast learning curve. TunerCat also have one (DataCat) http://www.tunercat.com/. Might have to pay and there is a learning curve with that one also.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by SbFormula
Now, you could always try running an old version of Datamaster if you could find the definition for your car. Maybe you could download it online. I think you had a limit of 20 datalog with no licence and no limit on monitoring. It works on my Windows 8.1. Not sure if it works on Windows 10. It's a simpler software, almost plug and play. It's very limited though compare to TunerproRT but could do the trick if you're in need of fast learning curve. TunerCat also have one (DataCat) http://www.tunercat.com/. Might have to pay and there is a learning curve with that one also.
Do they all use the same cable as tuner pro?
I'm looking more just to monitor and see what's going on with the engine vs making modifications etc.. I'm guessing tuner pro is good at this as well, right? I was hoping the scanner I got would be good at that...its OK....not great though haha
car is mostly stock aside from whatever the P/O did which I don't think was much. I honestly think now, that putting 350 injectors in would probably have been more than he would have been willing / capable to do.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
[QUOTE=1989karr;6401935]Do they all use the same cable as tuner pro? Yep
I'm looking more just to monitor and see what's going on with the engine vs making modifications etc.. I'm guessing tuner pro is good at this as well, right? I was hoping the scanner I got would be good at that...its OK....not great though haha You’re better off with data logging. You might not be able to see everything that’s going on when monitoring. With data logging you can capture what happens when idle goes up. Yep TunerPro is good for monitoring and data logging.[/QUOTE]s
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
BTW - I dropped in the Delphi injectors for a 305 and they are working like a champ. (from Southbay) I haven't checked parameters yet, but idle is great, start up is great. Fires right up after sitting a few weeks. No problems. I do feel like they may be running a bit rich and there may be a lifter issue not opening valves all the way or it could be a ECU turn issue, or it could just be fuel tank/gas cap issues, smell it with T-tops off. I highly suspect lifter issue, when I did valve seals, some of the lifters were bleeding down more easily than others and I have a power problem. ya, not because its a 305, but it just aint running right at WOT. But did not encounter the problems folks seem to have with the Bosch, where tuning is needed or the car will not run very well at all.
Oh, and if your really OCD, you could paint them Multi-tech blue, and half the guys around here would never notice
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by LiquidBlue
BTW - I dropped in the Delphi injectors for a 305 and they are working like a champ. (from Southbay) I haven't checked parameters yet, but idle is great, start up is great. Fires right up after sitting a few weeks. No problems. I do feel like they may be running a bit rich and there may be a lifter issue not opening valves all the way or it could be a ECU turn issue, or it could just be fuel tank/gas cap issues, smell it with T-tops off. I highly suspect lifter issue, when I did valve seals, some of the lifters were bleeding down more easily than others and I have a power problem. ya, not because its a 305, but it just aint running right at WOT. But did not encounter the problems folks seem to have with the Bosch, where tuning is needed or the car will not run very well at all.
Oh, and if your really OCD, you could paint them Multi-tech blue, and half the guys around here would never notice
Yes! those are the ones I want....Im going for direct replacement, no tune, just throw it in and it woks!
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by 1989karr
Yes! those are the ones I want....Im going for direct replacement, no tune, just throw it in and it woks!
Small kine OCD here honestly lol
Another vote for the Delphi's. That what I used and just like Liquid Blue they dropped right in and fired right up. I did have to tune mine but it was due to the fact that I changed my runners, not the injectors themselves. Mine was rich also. IMHO the extra cost of the Delphi's are well worth it.
It will also be worth it to just bite the learning curve and use Tuner Pro RT. It really is a great tool to help keep these old TPI motors running the best they can. I think the old school scan tools are kinda useless as they don't give you enough info on each system.
Last edited by vinny R; 11-07-2020 at 07:24 AM.
Reason: typo
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by LiquidBlue
What did you have to change in the tune?
I am not positive on what was changed. Tuned Performance did my tune. He did make sure what injectors I used so he could set it to the Delphi specs, Voltage offsets I think? When I ran my datalogs the BLM's where rich and the car smelled at idle. I think Brian did something with the fueling in the VE tables.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by 1989karr
Yes! those are the ones I want....Im going for direct replacement, no tune, just throw it in and it woks!
Small kine OCD here honestly lol
I changed my injectors years ago when I had my OE LB9 engine. I had the famous Multec and they went bad. It was running rich despite ECM saying everything was right. That was because the O2 sensor could not detect it since the performance shop back than had relocated the O2 sensor on cylinder #1 headers. I got mine from Fuel Injectors Connection https://fuelinjectorconnection.com/. Great service and good videos demonstrating Multec's failure. I got BOSCH III remanufactured and modified to fit OEM TPI. They worked great at decent price. My BLM got a bit richer because the injectors were more effective I guess. I could have left it alone and it would have been fine. I just lightly tuned the VE tables (Speed Density) since I had all the set-up to do it.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by vinny R
I am not positive on what was changed. Tuned Performance did my tune. He did make sure what injectors I used so he could set it to the Delphi specs, Voltage offsets I think? When I ran my datalogs the BLM's where rich and the car smelled at idle. I think Brian did something with the fueling in the VE tables.
This is interesting!
If the BLM are "rich" it means they are pulling fuel right (<128)? That's my understanding. So if it's pulling fuel, the idle should not "smelled at idle" since the close loop is doing it's job. Unless the ecm taps out and can no longer pull the BLM, thus SES light comes on. Was it smelling in open loop or all the time?
Don't mean to be an a**, just curious to understand the logic.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by SbFormula
This is interesting!
If the BLM are "rich" it means they are pulling fuel right (<128)? That's my understanding. So if it's pulling fuel, the idle should not "smelled at idle" since the close loop is doing it's job. Unless the ecm taps out and can no longer pull the BLM, thus SES light comes on. Was it smelling in open loop or all the time?
Don't mean to be an a**, just curious to understand the logic.
Cheers
I am still trying myself to understand the logic, part of my learning curve so no worries.
It smelled @ idle while warming up. The smell got less after it went into closed loop but it still had that rich smell. It also would hesitate off idle from what seemed to be the overload of fuel, this also got better as it warmed but never would totally go away. Yes the BLM's were low but the ECM did not tap out. IIRC it was @ a low of 118.
When Brian read my initial datalog he said that he would bet it smelled @ idle so something in numbers was telling him this.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
@vinny R on your friend Bosch 3 injectors I changed offsets and be. On your just recurved timing alittle and worked on volumetric efficiency. didn’t take much to refine a stock engine with Delphi’s.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by Tuned Performance
@vinny R on your friend Bosch 3 injectors I changed offsets and be. On your just recurved timing alittle and worked on volumetric efficiency. didn’t take much to refine a stock engine with Delphi’s.
Hey Tuned, are you still thinking Dynamic EFI EBL P4 is the easiest way to get EEPROM/Tuning up and running, or has something newer come along?
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Ebl p4 is a great option for a modified tpi just to help speed up tuning with its ve learns. Much easier than chip burning. As long as the cam isn’t to radical and good high manifold vacuum I still like to fool with memcals. Generaldisorder has had luck with link efi.
Re: TPI injector identification (305 or 350) high idle / rich exhaust problem
Originally Posted by Tuned Performance
Ebl p4 is a great option for a modified tpi just to help speed up tuning with its ve learns. Much easier than chip burning. As long as the cam isn’t to radical and good high manifold vacuum I still like to fool with memcals. Generaldisorder has had luck with link efi.
Indeed. I had an EBL setup and it wasn't quite what I wanted (real time tuning, and wideband closed loop were features I was particularly interested in). My LINK setup is a full motorsports stand-alone but it comes with a higher price tag than the EBL.
10-28-2020, 05:56 PM
part of my learning curve so no worries.