robguitargod1

iTrader: (4)

Yes they will work. Just needs a little grinding as seen here.

3rdGenMess

Yea...may have to do a little alteration if I'm not mistaking u have to cut off the gas pedal and open up the bolt holes a little but other then that you'll be good to go

online170

Post #9
You MAY also need to enlarge the 4 holes that go over the brake booster. I only enlarge 2 I think (been a while, but the info is in this thread).

Then One final hole that no one seems to mention at the "top" of the pedal assembly will need quite a bit of grinding. Theres pix of that in this thread too.

3rdGenMess

Yea that hole on the top is a b!+(h I left it unbolted, don't recommend it, but that was for test driving purposes only

online170

Just grind the crap out of the hole in the bracket and make it bigger. I ground away bit by bit, but you can just take a big chunk out, no biggie. Use a washer when youre done. Extensions and U-joints are your freinds.

The hole in the bracket is basically in the wrong place.

91camarosRS

iTrader: (5)

ok yeah i already enlarged the four. that top one was the one that im having trouble with. sounds like i just need to drill another hole.

online170, someone said that there are driving issues with the 4th gen pedals. are there any? like where the engagement point is?

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

The engagement point is a little on the high side, but it's not bad at all.

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

I didn't bother with that top bolt, just left it out. The 4 master cylinder trough bolts are plenty solid. No problems so far.

I wonder if the sole purpose of that top bolt was to facilitate the assembly process. Like, a worker would hang the pedals in location using the top bolt and then somewhere else down the line another worker would bolt the master cylinder on and the top bolt would have held everything in place on the inside.

I bought a brand new clutch fork and pivot T nut. don't know if it had anything to do with it, but the engagement point feels perfect. The car starts moving as soon as the pedal moves a half inch off the floor. I was surprised at how much wear the old clutch fork and pivot had on them. I can see how that would have affected engagement. I'm using 4rth gen pedals and brand new 4rth gen hydraulics.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

I feel that the top bolt is very important for spirited driving, it act's as bracing for the firewall. It is probably fine for normal driving, but over time it may lead to stress cracks in the firewall. On the other hand, most of these t56 swapped cars likely don't see a whole lot of use and aren't driven enough to wear some things out.

FWIW, I put in that top bolt. Yes, it was a bi*ch, but it's certainly doable.

online170

Actually I was arguing the exact opposite. I absolutely LOVED the way those pedals felt. I compared a few othe cars in this thread and how the clutch felt and this one felt exactly like the 2010 Bullitt Mustang, both of which are amazing. To be honest, I failed to see what everyone was talking about for the "high engagement" point.

I completely agree. I no longer own the car that is pictured in this thread. At the end of its time with me, the T56 was swapped out for a T5, whose pedals setup is very similar but missing the top bolt. It definitely felt like it was flexing the firewall a bit. The t5 clucth was also "heavier".

Put the bolt in, I promise it will feel more "Sturdy".

PeterFeix

iTrader: (1)

Hi all!

I just started my 700r4->T56 swap today. Getting my T56 in 3weeks , so I wanted to be done with the more difficult stuff when it arrives and before it's too cold outside.

In case anyone is planning to use the 4thgen manual pedals ; I solved the need of drilling extra holes in the firewall by just cutting the 4thgen pedal-set into 2 pieces ( just don't use the gas pedal bracket ; use the old one ) - It will work fine. With that modification the whole assembly is more or less plug&play. I just need to get some 4thgen Brake/Cruise Control switches, 3rdgen stuff doesn't work here.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

I cut off the gas pedal too. As has been mentioned, two of the holes for the brake booster studs need to be elongated.

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

Here's a video of me shifting my newly swapped T56, just to keep everyone doing the swap motivated. Trust me you'll love it once its all setup!

http://www.youtube.com/user/mastana6.../0/4-rlrSFQ4Aw

PeterFeix

iTrader: (1)

Sweet

One question which hasn't been answered in this thread as far as I know.

How do I solve the problem with the Switches for brake light + cruise control ( on brake pedal, as well as clutch pedal ) ?

I'm using 4thgen pedals, so the stock 3rdgen switches wont fit.
I currently have tightened them with zipties, but I'm really not happy with this. Brake light works as it should, but I doubt the switch will be aligned that way forever, so sooner or later, my brake light will either be always on, or lights up too late.

Should I use 4thgen switches instead? What would be to do if I could use them? Connectors are direct fit? I guess not
Do the 4thgen cars have vacuum lines to the cruise control interruptor switch?


thanks in advance

Alex

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

I don't remember exactly what I did with mine, but I do remember that I got the info here on TGO. If it wasn't this thread, it was another swap thread that was also popular.

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

I used the third gen brake switch on the 4rth gen pedal. The hole in the 4rth gen pedal is too large so I used a 1/2-20 nut and 1/2-20 washer to hold the switch. Works perfectly!

I'm not running cruise but I imagine you could do something similar and use the 3rd gen switches.

85z28kid

iTrader: (7)

Just finished my swap over the weekend!!! It is soooo fun rolling burnouts now!!! It wasn't bad at all I did the whole thing by myself. For jacking the tranny up in there use a motorcycle jack it lifts it nice and level.

I wouldnt change it for nothing. I wish I had it over the summer! I switched over to a custom clutch master cylinder and pedal system I got from big mods on here.

The top bolt is deff a pain in the A$$! But it's very doable. I would deff if you can afford it get a good shifter it makes the world of difference I got a cheap eBay one with my tranny and it was a pos! Got a pro 5.0 now and it's smooth. The only thing I need is to get a 6speed center console off of a 4th gen since I got a 4th dash and center.

If anyone needs help let me know and I will help to the best of my abilities since I just went through this swap

PeterFeix

iTrader: (1)

I just have one question left before I go shopping @ Summitracing :
Do I have to buy another starter? I'll be using the Stock LT1 Flywheel , 153 tooth.
The L98's flexplate should have 153th too, but will the original L98 starter fit with the T56 bellhousing ( stock LT1 ).

Thanks in advance

Alex

PS: This weekend, I'll be doing the electrical stuff, and then I just have to wait for the ordered parts to be delivered and the tranny which will arrive in ~3 weeks.
Hope do get everything done by the end of january, so I can finally do a dynotune and have everything perfect for next years season

AnotherfastIROC

yes it will work, you do not need a replacement starter.

PeterFeix

iTrader: (1)

Wow, that was really fast
Thanks alot!
This will save me some money, especially with the shipping costs to Germany, so there will be a leather shifter **** in my budget, and maybe some other smaller/lighter parts which are not really necessary but nice to have

3rdGenMess

Ok, I been finished with my t56 swap, I have a 90 camaro and time is running super thin before I have to leave her behind for korea ...anyway..how the hell do I hook up my breaklights...correct me if I'm wrong, the plastic tip should be depressed when the breaks arent in use, so when I press the breaks it releases turning the lights on correct?

jmd

iTrader: (4)

There are two.

An original 305 starter fits the 93-97 LT1 T56 bellhousing.
An original L98 starter does not.

Pics:https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...944-post5.html

Any stock V8 third gen has a 153 tooth flywheel, which is the same as the 93-97 LT1 T56.

88 TA GTA

What about the t56 bellhousing inspection cover. Is everyone running without it?
Can't seem to find this part anywhere

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

No, don't run without it. You'll get water, salt and all kinds of grime on your clutch. Its a flat piece of metal so if you can't find one just fabricate one out of sheet aluminum.

3rdGenMess

I personally dont have one on mine, but I don't drive it in rain or incliment weather...honestly I've never used inspection covers on any of my transmissions

vbMike

iTrader: (2)

I wasn't able to find a cover so I just run mine without it. I didn't try that hard to locate one either. Anyway, the car doesn't come out in the rain or snow so not really a big deal for me.

alloy

iTrader: (16)

If you look on page 4 of this thread you will see how I made a cardboard template for the dust cover and made my own shield. Worked out pretty well. I looked for a few months for s stock one but just couldn't find one anywhere.

88 TA GTA

Thanks I did and I noticed you do not have a hole for the starter, is this not necessary? With my mini starter I think it covers most of that hole or space. I found this pic and it suppose to be for a LT1 T56.

88 TA GTA

does anyone use the actual T56 cover plate above?

Does the T56 work only with a 1 piece RMS or have others used it with an older block with 2 pc RMS?
any response would be appreciated.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

note: This is with an LT1 T56.

I switched to a Wagner 86 Cavalier Z24 slave cylinder with my 3rd gen pedals and although the pedal is SUPER soft, the engagement point is in the correct range in the pedal I think.

I read a thread from a guy who did it successfully. Theory is that the slave is larger bore than teh T56 slave, so the same amount of pedal throw gives you less slave cylinder/clutch fork throw.

With the rear in in the air and no resistance on the wheels with the engine running in gear, they start to turn with the clutch about a half inch off the floor. I think with the car on the ground trying to propel itself it wouldnt start engaging significantly until past that point, probably 3/4 to 1 inch off the floor.

If you are switching from a T5 or cant find 4th gen pedals (I had a hard time sourcing them, probably just didnt know where to look) and dont want to bother with cutting the master rod and doing the turnbuckle mod, an 86 Cavalier slave cylinder WILL work, and it's $25. Cavalier slave cyl even has a bleeder screw so that simplifies the process a good bit.

The only drawback I can see is that the pedal throw is longer than it would be if you shorted the master cylinder rod on T56 hydraulics. I can feel the engagement point and the pressure against the clutch fork in the pedal, and the pedal throw is clearly going through about HALF of the clutch fork movement distance it was going before. You spread that smaller amount of force needed for that amount of clutch fork travel, and you spread that over the same pedal throw, and it gets VERY soft. It feels about as stiff as my girlfriend's 92 Integra.


So if you shorten the T56 master cylinder rod, the pedal is heavier, but the throw is shorter. You use the cavalier slave, the pedal travel is longer, but MUCH softer.

It's an option, it will make more sense for some people than for others. For me I didnt feel like pulling the whole system back out of the car to modify it. A lot easier to just swap the slave, and it was $25.

The only mod I had to make to get it to fit was to drill out the lowest hole in the fitting in teh cavalier slave to a size that matched the T56. It seemed like it was ever so slightly smaller of a port in the fitting in the cavalier slave. Just drilled it out with a hand drill, cleaned out the plastic shavings and bled the rest through and it's functioning just fine now. Very easy mod.

The T5 master cylinder is, I believe, the same bore as the T56 master, so if you have a T5, all you have to do is just swap the slave out and you can roll with everything you've already got. And since the T5 hydraulic line will be the same year period as the Cavalier, there's a chance you wouldnt need to slightly drill out the bottom of the female end of the hydraulic fitting.

L695speed

Thanks for that info. Sounds like it will drive like my daily driver's clutch. My daily is a 2000 Subie Outback, the clutch engages right near the floor, starting maybe an inch or two off. I go all the way down, and all the way off every shift, I don't cheat the clutch pedal. So for me it will be no issue. Now, I despise seriously light clutches, and I mean dead pedal light. Does it go that light or does it have some feeling?

In addition to my 84 TA's T5 and my daily, I drove a 94 Integra, 91 civic, 94 Accord, 86 MR2, 86 Fiero GT, 02 WRX and 00 Subie 2.5RS, out of all of them, the hondas and the 2.5RS had the lightest clutches, the MR2 is light but its down by the floor engagement wise. The Fiero was in the middle, the WRX was lighter than the Fiero, the T5 in the TA was the heaviest. And that was cars in the family, or relatives/friends. I rather like the heavier clutches.

If the pedal goes that light , maybe I'll get a heavier aftermarket clutch in place of the stock one, after all if the clutch slave makes it all lighter, why not use a heavier clutch. I've driven a 67 427 Vette, a 2001 Z06 that had an aftermarket race style clutch (GOD WHAT A CAR!), I've also been behind the wheel of a AC 428 (NOT the Cobra, the one after it), E type Jaguars, and a couple Ferraris for start up or moving around the shop among other cars, so I know what a heavy clutch is. Due to that, I just shake my head when my brother said the WRX has a heavy clutch pedal....to me it feels light.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I dont have all that much to compare it to unfortunately.

I know the L03 T5 car I drove once a couple of years ago (I quickly figured out that it must have been stolen and told my friend to take it back to the used car lot IMMEDIATELY and didnt want to drive it anymore - was a 91 RS with a 94 VIN number...) had a very similar engagement point to this one, but it was heavier, not drastically, but definitely heavier.

The problem with the LT1 clutches is that 95 percent of them all use the same pressure plate. They rely on the friction discs for more clamping power. The exceptions I think, and Im not even sure THEYRE different, are the fancy pants multiple disc clutches that are available for huge money. I've got pressure plates from a Spec Stage 3, Competition Clutch Stage 2, and a parts store stock replacement clutch, and they all look exactly the same, same part numbers on the individual parts. Just painted up differently.

So you're not gonna be able to find a stiffer sprung clutch for an LT1 T56.

It's a very light clutch, but I will say I can feel the throw as it gains mechanical advantage on the clutch fork. You can feel the tension rise and rise and then fall again in the last bit of travel to the floor. So while it may be soft, my initial reaction is that since I can still feel where it is in the travel by tension alone, I should be able to adjust to it without too much trouble.

Like I said, it feels about the same as my girlfriend's integra. Feels like a 4-banger clutch. If you want a heavier clutch (and a necessarily shorter pedal throw) then I would say making the master cylinder rod adjustable is the right course of action.I wouldn't necessarily recommend this instead unless but it fit my needs perfectly as I never cheat with the clutch either.

Thats why the over-disengagement i was getting pushed the clutch fork out so far it was hitting the pressure plate while the engine was running!



The bright line is the witness mark. It scraped the black paint straight off it. You're looking past the clutch fork on the right up towards the throwout bearing.

It sounded like a very steady knock right as you got to the floor with the pedal, and you could feel it pulsing back up the hydraulic system. I drove it around the block a few times and it functioned perfectly as long as i didnt take it all the way to the floor, and that was difficult not to do for me. It finally, due to the rhythmic banging against the clutch fork, actually bounced the slave cylinder rod out of the clutch fork cup. The clutch pedal just went to the floor and flopped around uselessly. Not a good feeling... the pedal was rock hard a minute later, and I figured out what must have happened, pulled the slave cylinder out and found the grind line on the pressure plate. Was just glad it wasn't worse than it was.

Also, credit where it's due, this clever solution came from AnotherfastIROC:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ic-clutch.html

Going by his methodology, the stock T56 slave is 11/16's bore, so if you found a slave cylinder with, for example, a 1 inch bore instead of a 1.25 bore (like the cavalier slave), you could probably get a nice medium between what I have and what is stock as far as a compromise between pedal travel and pedal stiffness. But I happened to know thanks to anotherfastIROC that the 86 cavalier slave was practically a plug and play solution and hes had good luck with it on his car for years now. Be sure to read his thoughts on it too. Edit: I just saw your response in that thread... LOL, so you've already seen it. Nevermind.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Update: I drove the car wit hthe new slave... the engagement point is literally RIGHT off the floor, very weird. Not sure if it's a bad thing or not yet. I seem to be able to drive it okay since the pedal is so soft, but the engagement point has to be something like 1/4 inch off the carpet. I put it back on jackstands just to check, and at full travel, the wheels are definitely not getting any power, but it's only barely... I think I could get used to it.

85z28kid

iTrader: (7)

Yea I have the same cavalier slave on my tranny an personal I don't like it. It's easy to push the but you got have lots of pedal throw to disengage clutch.

I think I'll go back to stock so I can have a short throw. It's nice that it's light but I don't really like it. Just my IMO.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Now Im a bit confused...

The Cavalier slave is 1.25 inches and even though it works perfectly fine it'd be nice to have a little more room for error, as it only just barely fully disengages the clutch.

The T56 slave is 11/16's diameter.... and it overextends so far that the clutch fork is banging on the pressure plate.

The T5 slave is 1 inch diameter...

Why is no one using the T5 slave again?

85z28kid

iTrader: (7)

Does the mounting bolts line up?

I would be interested in finding a 1" bore slave cylinder aswell.

I think a 1" would be perfect. I really want short pedal travel so I can have it a few inches off the floor and then I can just slam it to the floor when shifting.

I just noticed you gotta have a lot of pedal throw room to make the cavalier cylinder work. It's just more than I really was expecting.

Anyone got a t56 slave they wanna trade for a cavalier cylinder? It's only got maybe 500 miles on it. I wanna just go to a t56 slave and see what it does.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Im gonna try a T5 slave next week I think. I dont see any good reason not to do it unless someone tells me it physically wont fit.

I think this is one of those times were physical variances in pedal geometry are throwing things off. Drilling the master cylinder hole(s) in the firewall... there's no exact place to put it in an Auto car that was converted.

85z28kid

iTrader: (7)

Yea I agree with you Kyle. Even the wrong geometry will give you to much or to less pedal throw.

Definently let me know what you find out as I would be really interested into do a 1" slave aswell.

Maybe someone with a t5 laying around will measure the mounting point to see if the slave will bolt up on a t56

L695speed

Yeah, I saw his thread thats where I got the swap idea. I will have to see how I like it when I finally get my car driving again. A slave isn't the worst job in the world, except for the bleeding part. I will probably experiment with the slaves if someone finds a solution that adds some weight to the clutch. For now I'm done messing around with things like that. Just want my car driving again. Most of the clutches I drove engaged closer to the floor with a longer throw pedal. Even the T5 in my own car was like that. I know my brother's subarus you can feel the tension change big time half way down and its not always a smooth transitsion. Didn't like it as much. My Subaru is progressive all the way to the floor.

online170

It should work. When I swapped out the T56 for the T5, I didnt change the hydraulics. It was the same TPI parts stuff, left in the car.

Bolted up like a charm.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

So you're using all T5 hydraulics with thirdgen pedals and it works fine and feels stock?

L695speed

I'm wondering the same thing, the general census is it won't work right...

85z28kid

iTrader: (7)

Did you use an actual t5 slave?

No one here has one to measure?

A 1" slave would be perfect. But if it doesn't fit then I'm just Gunna go to a t56 slave since I don't ride the clutch anyways. So I would rather just have less pedal throw.

online170

No the other way around (T56 hydraulics on a T5). If you go back to the very first 2-3 posts, you'll see that my hydraulics(used) were damaged in shipping.

So i ordered a set from TPIparts.com. I think I have the link posted on the first page somewhere.
http://www.tpiparts.net/inc/sdetail/10743/819

These are the hydraulics I used for the T56. When I was selling the car, the T56 came out, and the T5 went in. I changed out the pedals for 3rdgen T5 pedals, and the transmission, thats it. I didnt even unbolt the hydraulics. The slave just mounted on the trans the opposite way thats all.




In terms of felt stock, I have nothing to compare to. I hated how it felt because the travel was absolutely huge. Felt like I was hitting my knee on my face when I let the clutch out. It was a nice even feel though, and the T5 has the nice fulcrum point where all the engagement comes on at once. Its also the point where the spring pressure from the clutch is the highest.

PeterFeix

iTrader: (1)

Next problem
But I'm about to do the swap tomorrow.

A new LT1 Starter is ordered, should arrive in the next days.
It seems that my T56 came without the torque arm bracket, can I reuse a 700r4 bracket?
I've found a bracket for T5/T56 Fbodys, but the shipping to germany is way too expensive.

thanks in advance
Alex

85z28kid

iTrader: (7)

I got one for ya. If you want it pay the shipping you can have it.

TGO member to TGO member discount.

Pm me if your interested.

PeterFeix

iTrader: (1)

PM sent

midwest90rs

I have been doing some research on the t56 swap and i have a question that i havent been able to find the answer to in this thread. Will the stock T5 crossmember in my 90 Camaro bolt up to the t56 trans or will the 4th gen t56 crossmember bolt in my 90 Camaro? I apologize in advance if this question was already answered in a previous post.

oamhmad

iTrader: (1)

You will need a T56 to thirdgen F body conversion cross member. I'm using one from Spohn. Pretty good piece.

L695speed

I second this, good piece, I'm also using it. Can't use the T5 or 4th gen cross member, you need the conversion one.