Anyone who has done the T56 swap knows the clutch grabs unusually high, or at least it does in my car. It seems the 1st inch does all the work and rest is there to simply be there. So I looked into tons of solutions and I found adjustable master cylinders, shiming the master cylinder back a bit and the most fun in my book cut and thread the rod to make it adjustable. While all of these seem like great ideas I got to thinking of a different route. Change the hydraulic system to work for you!

I looked up the following parts on www.Rockauto.com and did math and this is what I came up with.

Use Slave cylinder from a 1986 Cavalier Z24 1.25" Bore (P# SC360002)
Use a Master cylinder from 94 Camaro Z28 3/4" Bore (CM132009).

If my math is correct this should give you 2:1 (master VS Slave) advantge. In theory it should make the clutch lighter, give it more "nimble" engagement and reduce the stroke distance of the slave cylinder to 1/2 the current throw. This all seems to be what we are looking for.

The only question is are the bolt patterns the same for the slave cylinder and the T56 clutch mount.

Let me know what you all think, i was planning to order these parts and to do a write up on the swap.

 

I would be interested in seeing the results as how we are doing the t56 swap in a 87 behind a Ramjet 350. What did you have to do to the LT1 flywheel for balancing purposes if i may ask?

 

My motor is internally balanced, since the LT1 is as well I simply sent out the flywheel to verify the balance was correct and installed as is, I typically never trust a second hand part to be what it is said to be... I also have single piece rear seal so there was no need to do much of anything but replace factory with factory. The fun part of the project was cutting the floor to make the shifter fit, otherwise overall the entire swap was smooth, I would say only slightly more complex than doing a clutch on the T-5.

To be honest I believe the Ramjet is also internally balanced with a single piece seal, but I am not certain on that. Good motor BTW, I looked at one for a while until I happened upon my supercharger for a steal (under 400), then I decided to go with 8.5 CR and 10 lbs of boost

In any case the part is on order from Rockauto so if everything I looked at matches this might be a simple fix. I'll do a write up once I have installed, I also have a quirky way of bleeding the clutch but it works like a charm on these cars.

 

I agree it would be worth it to see if it is compatible. Let us know how your progress goes.

 

Did you use 3rd or 4th gen hydraulics? Ive heard the 3rd gen hydraulics/pedals cause the issue. If you use 4th gen hydraulics with 4th gen pedals it shouldn't be engaging so low on the pedal travel.

 

I initially installed the set up with the thirdgen hydraulics and pedals but it was nearly un-drivable, so I swapped over the hydraulics to the 4th gen and had slightly better luck, but not perfect, very late engagement. I unfortunately did not grab the forth gen hardware with my set up so I am sort of boned on that front, that was an error on my part. I looked into ordering replacement parts from the 4th gen and they are fairly scarce at my local junk yards as well as exspensive and e-bay was not too much better, considering if this solution works it should only cost approximately 50$ or less, assuming your factory master cylinder for the clutch is in good working order.

I would have to say if you have access to the 4th gen pedals that would be the best solution as the pivot points are different between the 4th and 3rd gens cars making the travel less as well as lowering the "clutch weight" (hoping this is the right term). I think if my calculations are correct that this hydraulic set up should accomplish a similar end result. The key difference being the mecanical advantage is in the hydraulic system instead of the pivoting locations. I guess we shall see as the parts are now officially in route to my house :~)

 

It would be a creative alternative if it works.

 

Just received the parts today!!! Grabbed my Caliper and started measuring, and it is a match!!! The part will physically bolt into the car with NO modifications. So I am off to take more photos and install the slave cylinder and I'll see how everything plays out and will post picture tonight or tomorrow!

 

this sounds very interesting i plan to put a t56 in my firebird when i install the 454 this winter and wondering what to do with the clutch now i have an idea let us know how it all works out.

 

SUCCESS!!!! It's installed and working. No road test yet as the car is not registered, But I did back it up and down the driveway several times and got a god feel for how it works, and all I have to say is IT IS AWSOME! So lets start with the grabbing point, the clutch begins to engage about 1-2" inches off the floor, it then has a very progressive feel over the next 1" or so and is fully locked up by the last 2-3 inches. The Clutch weight is about 30% lighter than the factory T-5 set up and possibly a little lighter than the factory 4th gen set up, but very managable. You will be thankful of this in traffic or with a aftermarket heavy clutch! Release and engagement points are silky smooth and you get a pretty god feed back of how the clutch is engaging, the pedal isn't overly numb.

I have the factory 11" clutch, pressure plate and flywheel with a few miles on them (50K on the donor car) but I can say when I do drop the cash on the heavier unit it will simply make it feel factory.

So here are the details of how I installed... I am assuming you all know how to remove a slave cylinder so lets get down the to install. If your slave cylinder is like mine was you will need a small c-clamp to press the line into place while pressing the roll pin through to hold everything together. Now when I installed it I turned it so the hydraulic line was upwards.

Now to bleed it I have an unusual method. I have a helper watching the master cylinder resevior making sure it does nto go empty during this process. I add fluid until I stop seeing bubbles. With the slave cylinder out of the car I cut the plastic straps and allow the slave cylinder to pull fluid in, again MAKE CERTAIN the resevior does not go empty. I then lean it so the line is upwards and begin to press it all the way in (note the resevior is actualy to small with this slave cylinder go until the resevior is about to over flow) allw it to pull more fluid in and repeat until you stop seeing bubbles. Once you no longer are getting bubles line it up and bolt it in. CHeck fluid level and enjoy the solid pedal. If the pedal is not solid you still have air in the line. This is the way i do bleed the clutch on 3rd and 4th gens ONLY. if you have a vehicle with a long line it will not work, and this may not work fr some, but it does for me.

 

2 pictures of the slave cylinder in the car and one picture of my Motor... last time Igot it onto a dyno I fudn out I had a slipping Blower belt, slipping clutch and was running the 4-6 lb pulley you see in the picture. This winter am swapping to the 8-10 lb pulley designing a new belt tensioning system which allows more wrap on the main pulley. I also want to swap in a more aggressive roller cam, Larger EFI TBI system. But this summer I am focusing on frame and suspension.... Enough rambling long story short I would recommend this to any one who does not have 4th gen pedals or to anyone who might want to try and get a lighter clutch feel.

 

Awesome, glad you found a viable alternative.

 

This is great. Im so glad that someone found a good way to get the engagement closer to the floor. I will be bookmarking this page for when i am finally able to afford a third gen and a t56. Just wondering, but how much did it cost?

 

if you follow the link in the first post and search for the part numbers he gave it tells you the master cylinder is 65.79 and the slave cylinder is 23.79. not a bad deal.

 

Actually, you do not even really need the master cylinder, you can use the original one if its in good shape, I believe the factory T-5 is a 3/4 for the factory T-56 and 7/8, I may have it backwards, but overal they both would work. I think the 3/4 is a little better since it places the engagement point lower to the floor by about 1/4-1/2 inch, but either is better than the alternative.

total investment with shipping 31.45 slave cylinder
bottle of Dot 3 Synthetic 5$
roll of papertowels when I dumped the brake fluid all over my garage floor .99$
A clutch the engages beautifully, and a more polished result than shims Priceless...

(Sorry for the corny reference...)

Again If you have the factory 4th gen pedals they will be the best solution, although if you do not have a set this is certainly a viable alternative. I prefer it to the other methods I have read about which seemed to address the location of the pedal rather than the overall problem inherent in mis-matched parts. Not to say this is the best solution to each their own, but this is another alternative.

If you are still hestitant hang tight as the car is going on the road next weekend so I will report back with a real world test... afterwards.

 

were you able to get it on the road yet?

 

Yes, I drove it a few hours saturday and about 2 hours yesterday. The clutch engagement is pretty good. I noticed my clutch is definately worn, but the engagement is smooth and easy to manage although lite. Which when I got stuck in traffic it was welcomed. It will take a little getting used to initially but I recommend it, no regrets.

 

I'm doing my T56 swap now. Definitely something to consider down the line.

Good Thread!!!

 

So just to sum up this thread, this is a good alternative if you are running 3rd gen pedals and dont like the engagment? Running 4th gen pedals will not have this issue?

 

I'm working on this mod right now for my T56 swap in my 84. Just a heads up to anyone who wants to do this. The particular part the OP used (and I got) is on a wholesale close out at Rock Auto. When I ordered mine, they had 5 left. There are other alternative selections in the 86 Z24 Cavalier clutch section that might work just as well. The PN SC360002 is apparently being closed out. It cost 22 bucks when I got it.

 

Anyone else run this setup have any comments on how it compares to going with a full blown 4th gen hydraulics / pedals swap?

This setup seems much easier to do if you can use stock 3rd gen pedals and master cylinder.

Honestly, I've never even looked at my master / slave cylinder. Have always had someone else do that work for me. Does the line from the master cylinder easily connect to this slave, or is some special work required to connect them?

And am I correct in saying if I'm going from a T5 to a T56, and use this method, the only other mods I have to make are the crossmember, flywheel, wiring, and cutting back the shifter hole some?

One last thing, with that slave cylinder on close out, what would be another acceptable replacement for it to achieve this same thing?

 

Pretty much that is it as long as your using the LT1 trans. The hole is cut back about 1.5 to 2 the inches, the speedo needs to be converted to electric or a cablexbox from abbott will work. The trans suppport I bought with my trans was a bolt in ready and the slave cylinder bollted right up. I replaced the factory plastic line on my car with a stainless steel braided line but other wise it slid into place and the roll pin pushed right in. The rubber seals on the line were new so it took some work to seat the line but otherwise went well. I have a friend who did the same swap in a firebird with factory 4th gen pedals and honestly with factory 4th gen clutches in both mine is lighter. But not so light as you have no feeling for when it grabs, but lighter none the less. I estimate withe a spec stage 2+ clutch it will feel factory.

 

Hmm, well I'm not really sure how to tell if the t56 is a LT1 trans or not. I'm actually atm looking at 94 to 97 camaro and trans ams for sale in my area considering buying one of them to get the transmission out of. But most of the ones I'm looking at only say V8 6 speed. Is there a V8 in this year range that is not an LT1? I was assuming that any v8 6 speed in this year range would be the correct transmission.

If I did buy a car with everything in it, I might would use the 4th gen pedals from it, but at the same time if I bought an entire car just to pull the tranny it would be temporary as later on when I find another transmission I'd want to put it back in to resale the car (unless there were enough parts that I could part the car out and make a bit of my money back). I'm just swapping the motor in my third gen currently and trying to find one to go ahead and put in while doing the swap.

I do plan to put a performance clutch on it eventually, but might only run the stock 4th gen clutch initially. This in particular is one of the clutch kits I was considering (granted this is chosen without yet doing any research into what makes a good performance clutch, it's just one that was recommended to me by someone), but I'm not even sure what a spec state 2+ means.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ZZZ-HP70043-1/

 

You might wanna bone up on the visual difference between the ls1 and lt1 then. A ls1 t56 wont bolt to a gen 1 sbc. So if the car is an ls car, you better plan on swapping the engine and trans together. The lt t56 is a direct bolt on to a gen 1 sbc. For what its worth, im 99% sure the 94-97 4th gens are lt cars if theyre v8s.

 

93-97 had the LT1. The 93 T56 had a 2.97 1st gear ratio, vs the 94-97 2.66 ratio. All 93-97 4th Gens with a V8 were LT1s. Maybe a couple were LT4s but thats still a gen 1 SBC. I did the swap on the slave cylinder with no issues. I can't vouch for how it works yet though, as I still don't have a motor in the car. The 86 Cavi Z24 slave is indeed a direct bolt in. Even the way it hooks up to the line is the same with the roll pin. I believe any 86 Cavi Z24 slave will work. The one mentioned here is but one company out of like 5 or 6 that popped up on Rock. I went with the one mentioned bec it has been shown to work. No doubt others will have the same result.

The trans swap itself only needs the crossmember, a lil cutting on the hole, you will need the LT1 flywheel, and definitely something for the speedo. I went to Alloy and had him convert mine to work with my mechanical speedo. I'm in the process of reassembling the car, and I am at the point where I can sit in the seat again with the wheel and pedals and shifter where they should be. I'll say this, the short throw stick on the factory T56 shifter was way slicker than the original T5's.

 

Thanks for the info. I know there was some reason that the 93 T56s were generally avoided. That is why I've been looking at only 94 to 97. I thought the early 93 T56s had some problems and weren't rated as high on torque handling or something.

For the speedo, I'm not to worried about that atm. I'm going to convert my instrument panel to a digital speedo, don't really care for the mechanical speedo. Initially I'm not going to buy the dakota digital box either, I can use my phone's gps for a speedometer, but I think I can make my own conversion box rather than paying the money for dakota digitals.

I'm a computer geek and dabble in electronic projects as a hobby using arduino boards and such. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to build my own conversion box that does the same thing as dakota digital's at a fraction of the cost. If I can't get it working right, then I'll buy a dakota digital box, but if it's just a matter of x number of pulses in a time frame being converted to a different number of pulses in the same time frame, it should be rather simple.

 

Steven, if you have an ECM it needs VSS input. Car wont run right without it.

 

Honestly I'm not sure what a VSS is? Other than something to do with the speed and ecm. I have a ECM box under the dash but I'm not even sure what all it handles. I've driven the car before with the mechanical speedo disconnected and it ran fine, so that leads me to believe that there is no VSS on my car? I've swapped the box once because it was having an issue and thought the engine was always running at -400 degrees, so it was contributing to my engine running rich as apparently it handles the gas mixture going into the carb.

Even if it does have one, as long as I reconnect it I don't see where it would be something I have to worry about?

 

VSS = vehicle speed sensor.

Not sure how much the CCC ECM's need the VSS. In a TPI car they do need it, but if the car ran normally and did not show a check engine light with the speedometer unhooked then you could be okay.

 

Steven,
The '93 box with 2.97 first gear is actually a very nice ratio box to use w/ the 305 and later go w/ a larger engine. The '93 box w/ 3.35 first gear is a less ideal set of ratios for a V8.

The 2.66 first / .50 sixth isn't ideal with the 305 and still needs a good bit more rear gear than an '86 Z28 came with stock to drive as well as it can.

As for the VSS, it's required for the car to run correctly. There's a lot of people who believe eliminating as much as "possible" is ideal for simplification. Those people don't get the best power or mileage from their powertrain.

If your '86 gets a T56 w/ the tailhousing modified to drive mechanical speedo gears, your VSS in the dash will work off the speedo drive and nothing else needed.

 

I've already got a 4th gen hydraulics setup, I was just going to re-use my 4th gen lines from the master to the slave, but the cavalier slave has its hydraulic fitting on the side isntead of on the back, which may cause issues, not sure. Are the threads the same size and whatnot? Do I need to fab up my own lines somehow? Or do you guys use 3rd gen hydraulic lines?

Yeah but you sacrifice strength to get those gear ratios. Not worth it to me. I dont hear many people talking about how much they prefer the 94-97 ratios, just how they prefer a stronger trans.

 

I'm doing a t56 swap right now, and I'm wondering what lines and fittings did you use for the slave?
I notice there is a box-like fitting on the end of the steel braided line, AFAIK that isn't part of the factory '94 hydraulic assembly.

Thanks

 

That doesn't sound like a factory 94 setup. I have a 97 T56 and master setup, with the 86 cavi slave. It was a direct swap for me. I kept the fourth gen line and used a new roll pin and O ring on the cavi slave. The 94 should be the same way. What you're describing sounds more along the lines of a braided brake line with the box fitting and hole for the bolt. That is most certainly not factory for the clutch line.

 

Bump for people who do searches and didnt read the end of the T56 swap thread where I posted my experiences doing this swap here...

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...-thread-8.html , it's post #380

I havent driven it yet, but preliminary tests indicate that it's working just fine.

 

I know my 4th gear blocker ring is screwed, but this is the first time running this transmission with the lt1.

I used the hydraulics out of a 96 camaro, with the steel braided line, original t5 pedals, and used the part # referenced above CS360002 for the slave, and I'm not sure if it's a trans problem, or air in the line, but I have a hard time shifting the transmission into first (impossible practically).

I do notice the pedal is significantly softer than the t5 setup, but idk if I bled everything properly. I used a socket with zipties to hold the slave piston all the way in while a friend slowly pushed down on the pedal while I cracked it open/closed it repeatedly. It seems like I am getting the best pressure possible out of it, but wondering why I still have an issue then.

Still feels soft* but definitely is moving that piston, as when it's ziptied, and they push the pedal it moves that piston.

2/3/4/5/6 all shift, but not too easily.

 

Should note it's very hard to get every gear into gear while the car is running. First is just about impossible.
I also have never broken in the new clutch/pilot bearing on the street as the car is still in the air, perhaps the new pilot bearing is too tight still causing the input to bind?

 

I will be attempting this Slave Cylinder mod in the next few weeks.

Thanks for this information!

 

Worked for me.

 

I have been running this setup for over 7yrs and have no complaints at all

 

I'm still running it as well the swap is pretty straight forward, but if you have any Q's please feel free to hit us up