camarosource

iTrader: (1)

I have a mild modded engine. (Cam, ignition, exhaust, etc).

1. I am wondering what is the PRO and CON's of upgrading your Torque Converter?
2. How do you determine which Stall range to get?
3. If you get the wrong stall (too high or too low) what effect does it result in?
4. Do you lose or gain low end torque?
5. I read things about certain ones smooth idle or something?
6. How would it, if any, effect air-care?
7. How much am I looking to pay for this torque converter?
8. Suggestions for BRANDS, TYPES, to LOOK for? STAY AWAY FROM?
9. How much work is it to install a new one? (Basically how many hours of work would a Tranny shop be charging to install? Does the tranny have to be removed or just slip the converter off, and install a new converter?

I've been told that I may benefit most from my rebuilt engine by increasing the stall of the converter but am wondering what that would exactly result in...

Engine: L98 5.7L V8 350 (1.5:1 lifters)
Cam: Compcam Camshaft - 206/210 .450/.480 112deg (Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,000-5,000) According to Sumittracing's website ; http://store.summitracing.com/partde...8&autoview=sku
Exhaust: 80-series flowmaster muffler
Edelbrock Ceramic "TES" headers
Tranny: 700R4 automatic with OD, shift kit, rebuilt, kevlar bands, clutches..
Rear: Stock 3.23
Distributor: MSD Billet Distributor and rotor

thewolf

iTrader: (5)

Try reading some online sources to get a feel for how torque converters work. It took me a while before I really understood what they did and why you need to change it with a modded engine.

http://www.700r4l60e.com/

1. Basically, a high stall torque converter will slip more, allowing your engine to get higher in the RPM band faster, presumably be cause you want that to happen. As you mod an engine, you typically move the power band higher than stock. Your intake manifold and cam specs should give you a good guess as to where you want to be, but a dyno sheet would be better.

2. Stock stall is somewhere around 1500 or 2000? Something like that. A 2500 stall converter is a good choice for a mild 350 motor like yours. I think with my 383 I'm shooting for 2800 or 3000.

3. Too high of a stall and your car will lack street manners. Your engine will be jumping in at 4000 rpm from a stoplight. Too low of a stall and your car might be sluggish off the line, although it won't differ much from stock I don't imagine.

4. I'm not sure, I would think it would not be affected. You are changing when your power is applied, not how much.

5, 6. Not sure.

7. Don't pay less than $300. An Edge 9.5" converter is $535, and a Vigilante is $700.

8. Stay away from B&M. Not sure about TCI or Hughes. They would probably work for your power level. I did a lot of research to find what I would get, and I was torn between Edge and Vigilante.

9. As I recall, a lot. Drop the tranny, or pull the engine. It goes between the flexplate and the transmission, so it's not easy to get to.

Pretty sure about the stuff above, but correct me if I'm wrong. I don't claim expert knowledge here, just the results of me poking around the last few months.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

stock stall is 1300 IIRC. thewolf, most of your points are NOT valid with today's converters anymore. My engine doesn't jump to 4000rpm before the car rolls, in fact I can easily pass traffic at 2000 rpm without downshifting and my stall is 3800-4000. If I let off of the brake the car will start to move forward even at idle. A converter swap job I would estimate to be in the 200-300 range, call local shops. For what you're doing anything other than B&M would be a good choice. Heck go buy a stock 1998 s10 v6 converter and put it in your car and it'll stall 2200. Tons of people on this site have bought them and any trans shop should get one for $160 or so.

thewolf

iTrader: (5)

Another good informational site, and I have heard good things about the company's products:

http://www.phoenixtrans.com/html/converters.html
----------
He asked what would happen with a torque converter with too high of a stall speed. One of my friends has an MG with a two speed Powerglide and a 5500 stall torque converter; it is a drag setup, but I can't imagine it has a lot of street manners when driving around town.

I agree, just about anything would be better than stock, and a good upgrade with his new engine.

Tobias05

love my edge TC. after a week i didn't even realize it wasn't stock anymore. motor around just fine at light throttle, but get on the gas and the revs climb fast. very fun.

lauerak

what "stage" - type is your shifk kit? for you car i would recomend the tci streetfighter, its going to give you what you looking for perormance wise, but expect to pay around 600 bucks when its all said and done. btw those 700r4 trannys get so hot so quick id get a tranny cooler i did that and it knocked 2 tenths off my quarter on average. - hope this helped a lil bit

camarosource

iTrader: (1)

In all honesty, I'm not sure which stage, I THINK they said Stage 2 (they are no longer in business so I don't know anymore).

$600 for the unit? or PARTS AND LABOR? Cause the tranny shop I go to now charges $400 just to remove the tranny, $200-300 to install..

Also, How much for the cooler? Which one would you recommend? And one more thing.. Which Stall would you recommend I go for?

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...=KeywordSearch

Could you please explain the differences between them?

Seems the only thing different between them are 5 parts that change between them..

Anti-Ballooning Plate:
Lockup:
Diameter (in):
Input Spline Quantity:
Crank Pilot Diameter:

little Potato

1: PRO. Better off line acceleration.
CON. More tire spin.
2: This depends upon the engine combination and primary use. A big camshaft race car will need more stall speed than a small camshaft street car.
3: The quick and simple answer is that too much converter hurts gas mileage and not enough hurts low end performance.
4: The engines power remains the same. The converter allows the engine to get higher into it's power band.
5: Your probably looking at the camshaft characteristics that the converter is designed to work with. A low stall speed converter won't like a big lumpy camshaft.
6: If your talking about exhaust emissions the converter won't effect them.
7: Depends upon who's converter you end up getting but at least $200.
8: These are just one persons opinions.
Yes. Precision Industries, Yank, Hughes.
No. TCI, B&M.
9: Pull trans, remove converter from trans, add one quart fluid to new converter, install new converter into trans, reinstall trans, start car and fill up trans, inspect for leaks, do big fat smoke show.

Anti-ballooning plate keeps the converter from ballooning, or getting bigger just like a balloon. Used in high power N2O, blower, turbo cars. Not needed in your case but it won't hurt anything.
You already have, and will want to keep, the lockup function.
Diameter has an effect on stall speed, but it's not a short lesson. You'll probably be getting an 11 inch.
Input spline quantity and crank pilot diameter are transmission and application specific. You need to know the year of the transmission. Pilot diameter is usually only needed if you have a race car with different engine/trans combo, such as a 460 Ford and a Powerglide transmission.

Going off the info provided in this thread and the picture of your car I would use a Hughes with a stall speed of 2000 RPM.

Sorry for the book and I hope this helps.

camarosource

iTrader: (1)

AMAZING!! Thank you SO very much!!

Hmm.. Any particular reason against TCI? I notice so far EVERYONE i've talked to said NO to B&M... What is so bad about them?

I've been told stock is approx 1600-1800RPM. If that is the case, what would a 2000RPM really do? All that much? That's a LOT of $$ for a little more than 200RPM more ;-)

My BRAKE stall seems to start at 2000RPM.

little Potato

Your welcome.

I've sold B&M, TCI, and Hughes and have seen many problems with B&M and TCI (vibrations, fitment, build quality ETC.) and none with Hughes. I had a TCI that gave my car a lovely vibration.

1600 +/- sounds correct for the stock speed.

The converter responds to input torque and resistance to acceleration. The more torque, or resistance to acceleration, the higher the stall speed. Take your car. You say it stalls at ~2000 RPM. Say tomorrow your rolling along and boom, the engine is dead (O.K. that would suck so don't think this for long.) so you throw in a 200K stock, tired 305 TPI to get buy. You now will have a lower stall speed because of the drop in torque since all you changed was the engine.

So you fix the engine but decide to build an even better one for the Camaro and swap in a T-56. You have an old 74 Chevy 1 Ton P/U that needs an engine and transmission so in goes the 350 and 700R4. In the Camaro it would stall to 2000RPM, now in the truck with more weight, taller tires, and 2.73 gears the stall speed is even higher. Same engine and trans just more resistance to accelleration so more stall speed.

Would your car like a higher stall? Yes. Does it need one? Probably not. Do you want it to accelerate better? If yes then put a higher stall in it. If your having fun with the car the way it is then leave it alone and have fun.

Make sure the tach your using is correct. If it is and you really can get 2000 on the brakes then I would change the rear gears to 3.42's instead of doing the converter.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

stock is 1300 from what i've seen.

camarosource

iTrader: (1)

Due to Extreme cost of the Torque coverter idea.. I've been told to try going from 3.23 to 3.42 gears.. I'd appreciate your comments.. please reply to the NEW post made via the bottom link. Thanks

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ml#post3585453

wildncrazyguy

Ok. So this is how it works (someone correct me if Im wrong but I am an engineer in transmissions so I know a little about this stuff). The stall speed is the point at which the input shaft begins rotating with the engine at full throttle, hence driving the car. Engineers design the torque converter to match with the engine hp. This is designed so that the stall speed is the same point at which the engine is at max torque. The useable torque of an engine is when it starts dropping and you want max torque at takeoff. If you dont do any work to your engine and simply install a higher torque converter, meaning your car will take off for example at 3500 instead of 2500 engine rpm, this is at an rpm where the engine torque is less, and hence you will have worse takeoff. You also have a "looser" converter which generates more heat. If you go tighter, say 2000 rpm, you are again taking off under less hp and torque. The only reason to install a higher torque converter is if you've done a lot of work to your engine from stock. If your upgraded engine outputs higher hp and torque, now you have a converter that is too tight and you shoule get a higher stall converter and you'll notice a difference. Dont make the mistake that installing a higher converter helps with takeoff. If you havent done a lot to the engine it actually hurts it. Hopefully this helps. PS - Remember, allowing for more torque at a higher stall can risk damage to your transmission. It wasn't designed for it.

wildncrazyguy

Yes that should help takeoff - as long as you have the rear set up correctly so you dont have wheel spin

wildncrazyguy

To answer your number 2 question. You need to determine at what rpm your engine has max torque. Dyno'in the engine to get a torque vs rpm chart ideally (not easy). Maybe someone else could help you with how to get this number. Honestly if you havent done much to the engine I would even worry about changing the torque converter and if you do dont go up much in stall speed.

wildncrazyguy

Besides what I said above, #4. Youre not actually gaining torque. The only way to gain torque is engine modification. You're just finding the right converter so the stall speed aligns with the same speed as the max torque of the engine so you have the best takeoff/launch of the vehicle. #3. It hurts torque (See my earlier post). #9. Its not a lot of work. Raise vehicle. Remove torque converter to flywheel bolts, bolts from bell housing to engine block, and trans mounts, and drop tranney. TC just slides off. Although a mechanic will have you believe its a HUGE job and charge you thousands.

PaulyC

Yo Chief, this is a 10 year old thread!

wildncrazyguy

Yep - I noticed that lol. Lets resurrect it from the dead! Not really dated as this forum iss about cars 20 yrs old

Pro Built Automatics

When the torque converter stall is changed, it can help a lot even with a stock motor. It depends on how you go about it. The highest stall (from the factory) for the 700R4 is the 12" stock diameter torque converter for some of the Corvettes, is apx. 2,150 rpm. Now with the aftermarket, apx. 2,300 rpm - 2,400 rpm is the highest you can go without it being slippery and starting to produce a lot of heat. I don't recommend anything over this with this diameter torque converter, no matter who makes it. The stall can be made higher but the torque multiplication goes down very fast, gets slippery, and produces a lot of heat. Going with a 10" or 9.5" diameter torque converter, you can get the stall much higher and still have good torque multiplication (which is what you want) and not a lot of heat. Yank, Precision, Edge, Pro Torque, Circle D and others have been doing this successfully for years. I have seen .05 second and more drop in ET with the right torque converter, even with a "stock" motor, and it still is not slippery or producing a lot of heat. Depends on what is used and who is building it. Torque converter technology has come a long ways in the last 25+ years.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

I run a S10 TC in my L03 car. Gave me around 2300 stall and it definitely helped even a 170hp car. I figured while the tranny was out being built why not try it and I have no complaints. It wasn't that I needed it with that engine but I do plan to drop a 350 in later so I figured it will go well with it.