Mr_Metal

(sort of long)

I picked up an '89 RS Camaro w/ V6 2.8L multi-port EFI yesterday, w/ 123,xxx miles (daily driver).
It doesn't run now, however I trust the previous owner to not have intentionally given me a lemon. He said it was running as of 3 weeks ago.

Here's the problem, the last owner thought he'd run it out of gas. He said that he put 4 gallons of gas in it and tried to restart it.
NO dice, it will only stay running as long as ether is in the throttle body... it sounds good while it's running; no misses, sounds normal.
It'll spit and sputter and ALMOST try to start w/ no ether, but won't start/stay running not even close.

DAY 1 - I get it home:
I immediately change inline fuel filter. I can hear the fuel pump kicking in every time I power the ignition switch, which is a good sign.

I go out and buy 5 gallons of gas and attempt to get some fuel in the tank (maybe the last guy didn't have enough in there)... well after 2.5 gallons, the tank is completely full... hmmmmm, that's a bad sign.

I know there's a bunch of fuel pressure, due to manually releasing the fuel on the fuel rail w/ a nail head when someone's turning the key... the gas shoots all the way up to the hood and all over the place. That tells me that it's getting fuel & fuel pressure, however I don't have a fuel gauge to tell exactly how much fuel pressure.

It runs and sounds fine as long as there's ether in the throttle body/plenum, no misses, etc.

My question:
Is there another reason why this engine won't start? Maybe a MASS sensor or O2 sensor problem? Does this sound like a timing chain issue ?

Can I put it on a "code machine" even though it doesn't run at this time?

Any help will be appreciated, as I don't know much about troubleshooting EFI cars.

Please email me at: 70camaro@ureach.com -OR- post reply here.

Thanks

Dale

iTrader: (12)

You can still check for codes if it wont run, infact, that is what you do is NOT start it, and jump a-b on the diagnostics terminal.


Check your spark, these cars are known for bad coils, and bad ICM (ignition control module).

Have you checked/replaced the cap, rotor, wires, checked plugs, etc?

Mr_Metal

I've checked out the cap/rotor/wires, pulled cleaned plugs... everything appears to be in order.
I used a see through in-line spark detector, and I AM getting spark from the coil to the plugs.

Just pulled a code 34 - MAF sensor

I'm thinking injectors are clogged up, but don't know.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I am not familer with maf sensors, so someone else will have to chime in on that code.

What color was your spark? It must be white! Not orange, red. Blue will start it, but run like crap.

camaro_junkie

I'm pretty sure if the MAF is really broken, the car won't even try to start. How's the timing? Have you tried starting it and playing with the distributor? If the dist. hold down bolt was loose while running the car, it can get out of time so it won't start at all. I've seen it happen.

FbodTrek

Change it and let us know, they usually don't prevent it from starting, but it will just barely run. Disconnect your battery to clear the codes and see if it comes back before you put in a new one. If you're getting fuel and spark, it should at least try to fire off....

camaro_junkie

Can you start it with the MAF disconnected? Wouldn't it just run in open-loop like it does when you have no O2 sensor?

Ninetails

if the only thing keeping the car from running is the MAF then it will run with it unplugged... im fighting with a MAF problem myself that did something similar to what your discribeing, also i have to say that you should proly just replace your plugs and wires check your plug gap and all that jazz, just cause you checked/cleaned them doesnt mean that something cant be wrong with one/all of them

Mr_Metal

A buddy is coming over on Monday w/ a handfull of used (but operational) injectors, and fuel pressure gauge, and some working-knowledge of 2.8 MPFI systems... that's a start.

I'm going to replace plugs/wires/rotor/cap also, just to be sure.

I'll unplug the MAF first thing in the morning and see if she fires.

Thanks for all the help here.

HurtHorseZ28

While your at it, change that coil. Can't hurt after 123K!

85f-bird

if you've got gas in there, are u sure it's good? try a bottle of heat through thank, wouldn't hurt anything if you've got water sittin in the bottom. And definately give it a try w/ the MAF unplugged.

TomP

See if you can get a fuel pressure gauge. I got mine from the local pep boys for $40, and I use it whenever the car acts up- in 5 minutes I can eliminate the whole fuel system from the "might be a problem" list, so the $40 is well worth it! 30 PSI might be enough to make fuel pressure squirt from the schraeder valve, but it won't be enough to make your engine run.

Be careful with the starter fluid in the intake. It's a dry intake, only meant to flow air, and the fluid can puddle inside. One backfire can ignite any "puddled" fluid and blow your intake sky-high. (Happened to a friend's brother and his 2.8 Camaro.)

Just based on the starter fluid/ether bit, I'm betting your in-tank fuel pump is shot. How does it sound when you flip the key from "off" to "on" (right before the "crank" position)? Is it a nice quiet humm? Or is a loud BUZZ? Or a "strangled" hum?

My first pump died with the "strangled hum"... it sounded like it was sick. The second pump died with a super-loud buzz, it sounded like I had a hornet's nest in the tank.

If it is the pump, it'll suck for two reasons- 1, changing the pump just sucks. (Like I said, I've done it myself twice.) 2, you've got a full tank of gas youll have to drain. Definately get a f/p gauge on there!! Don't just change the pump on a guess... because you'd be pretty pissed off if you changed the pump and the car still wouldn't start.

(That happened to me too, with the first pump... but the fuel pressure was really low. After I changed it, I had correct fuel pressure, but the car still wouldn't start. Turned out the timing was super-over-advanced- and I got that clue by pulling the spark plugs and finding one that was destroyed due to detonation- there was absolutely NO center electrode on the plug! There was just a hole!)

Another thing you could do is spend $25 for a compression tester... get the tester that comes with a remote hose. (Skip the $15 one without a hose b/c you'll never fit it into the engine.) If you have less than 120 psi compression, you're in trouble... but I doubt that's it since the car was running three weeks ago.

dcm01003

I would suggest finding an ignition module and replacing your old one just to see if that was the problem. After much money and many hours of work my 89 rs 2.8 MPFI with 128,000 miles finally started after we realized that the module was getting signal but not putting anything out. We replaced it and then the car ran fine. Also, check to see if the wiring to your fuel pump is faulty because I know that the part connected to the oil pump switch i think can come lose or even just useless. Those are some things that may cause it.

Oh and if you are going to put an msd 6a multispark ignition box on your 2.8 as well as a new coil and plugs and accel 8.8mm wires, get ready to expect some problems because of the new current running through some of the old wires. Happened to both me and my friend.

Also, if you are heading for a new module, you might as well upgrade. This is what I added/did to my v6:
- blaster gm coil
- msd 6a ignition box
- accel 8.8 mm wires
- rapidfire spark plugs (which work great i might add)
- new dist cap, rotor
- cleaned the cam gear inside the distributor
- cleaned and electro-greased the connectors inside the dist
- get the gm to msd harness to go with the msd box
- cleaned the connectors from the computer to the module

Runs like a dream now...

Dave M.
------------------------
'89 camaro Rs 2.8L v6
'84 Z28 5.0L v8 (currently resides in my driveway, probably for good or until i get rid of it)

pasky

Check your injectors, thats what it seems to be.

Mr_Metal

Well... after going junkyard hunting later today, I finally found a computer (ECM) and 3 sets of relays/wiring (out of 3 different MPFI 2.8 Camaros) that were in the same yard.

A friend also brought over 5 new(used) injectors and a different distributor w/ cap/rotor... haven't put them in yet though.

I got the new(used) computer installed, hooked up the fuel pressure gauge and had a friend work the ignition.

After purging all the air bubbles out of the lines... I came up with a MAX fuel pressure of 22# @ the junction of the flexible line and the hard steel line(engine compartment, driver's side). My fuel pressure gauge didn't fit the schraeder valve (too big).

Tomorrow I will install the new(used) MAF power, fuel pump, and MAF burn-off relays and plug-end wiring... as the old plug-ends that are in there now are slightly pulled out of the sockets, showing bare wires, and look suspect.

I'll give the fuel pressure check another shot after hooking up the new(used) relays.

I'm fearing a fuel pump swap, grrrrrrrr... but, the fuel pump doesn't sound abnormally loud... sort of like a pager vibrating on a table.

If it IS that fuel pump... where would one cut an "access panel" hole from the top ? (inside the hatchback) ... I'm serious.

Could it be ANYTHING else at this point ?

TomP

The gauge didn't fit the schraeder valve? What kind of gauge is it? That's weird... if you bought it new, take it back!!

I dropped the axle both times to do my pump... it's not technically hard, just a pain in the butt. You've gotta raise the rear of the car pretty high up to get under there, and in a nutshell, you remove the panhard rod (track bar) and track bar brace, drop the rear axle to the ground (remove the clip holding the metal brake line to the car body and don't let the axle "hang" from the brake hose!), unbolt the intermediate pipe from the rear of the cat and pull the whole exhaust out, remove the muffler heat shields, and drop the tank.

Tip... use new hoses & clamps for the low pressure lines (fuel return, fuel vapor, tank vent).

Tip #2, don't re-use the old pulsator (plastic piece between the pump and the input tube). It uses O-rings to seal, and the o-rings get old, crack, and leak. Either buy a new $40 pulsator or skip the pulsator altogether by using a short length of high pressure hose and some clamps. (Hose usually comes with the pump)

Tip #3, use what's left of the fuel pump to empty your gas tank. Give +12 volts to terminal "G" on the ALDL (left most terminal in the bottom row) and the pump will run. But don't cause a spark or you'll die! I'm not responsible for your explosion, do at your own risk, etc, etc! In your case tho, if the tank's that full, siphoning the gas out will probably be a hell of a lot faster! Those dying pumps don't move a lot of fluid...

Tip #4, replace the high pressure hose if you can, but it's a special order part from GM and could take a while to come in.

Oh and replacing the hot wire relay won't work, because we don't have a hot-wire MAF. Just jokin' with ya, but our MAF's are frequency film units, only v8's got the hot wire MAF's. If the orange frequency film inside your MAF is wrinkled or bent or warped or otherwise "not completely 100% flat", the MAF will throw an error code. Good call though on looking at corrosion of the contacts!

Oh and hell one more thing- did you put new o-rings on the injectors? Old o-rings can crack and cause vacuum leaks. You'd need the o-ring kit made by Standard, it's part # SK-12, comes with 12 new red o-rings. Lube 'em up with engine oil before installing them onto the injectors, and before installing the injectors into the fuel rail and intake manifold. Also if you re-use the old upper-plenum-to-lower-plenum gaskets, you can get a vacuum leak. You can buy a complete intake gasket set from FelPro for $30, but it's a Complete set, and you just need two gaskets, so you could cut your own witn an X-acto knife and a $3 roll of thin black gasket material.

Okay one more thing and then I'm done- I just looked it up, between 40 and 47 psi (engine off, key on, check pressure) is what's listed. Pressure should drop 3-10 psi when the engine is running, which would put it around 34 psi. The GM book also says that "normally, a vehicle with a fuel pressure of less than 24 PSI idle will not be driveable." I hope your gauge was just reading incorrectly...

Mr_Metal

It's been raining/windy/30s today, or I would have installed that new fuel pump via the "access panel" route.
The access panel makes sense to me, due to the fact that if the fuel pump goes out again... all I have to do is drill through some pop-rivets to get to the fuel pump, rather than a 3-4 hour ritual.

Also got another distributor module and some relays/wiring-plug ends to install when the typhoon-like winds stop blowing.

Wish me luck !!!

Mr_Metal

Well... low and behold... the '89 RS MPFI is up and running FINALLY !

It wasn't what I thought it was though...

I replaced the 3 relays on the firewall (driver's side) and the relay plugs/wiring pigtails.

It fired RIGHT-over once they were changed.

THANKS so much everyone for your help and support.

I'm still VERY new to the EFI scene, and will be reading up on it through this site.

Thanks again.

dcm01003

im tellin ya man...i thought it was my ignition and spent all sorts of money replacing stuff (even though the module eventually failed while fixing everything else) it actually turned out to be some wires and a relay that all together cost 50 bucks to replace (including labor). Not that I mind the upgrades ofcourse, just frustrating thinking its something else and it isn't...hehe

Good luck!

Dave M.

TomP

Hey that's awesome!! What's the fuel pressure read now? Glad you didn't drop the tank. If the pressure still reads 22, you know there's something wrong with that gauge.

Mr_Metal

Now that it's running... it wants to RACE at idle.
And, the warmer the engine gets... the higher the RPMs go.
I can "kick it down" w/ the throttle, but it then resumes the "racing idle".

I'm getting about 30# oil pressure, which makes me happy @ 123,xxx miles.

Any thoughts on this problem anyone?

So far I've replaced:
- Brand new:
* Starter/solenoid
* Fuel pump
* INJ 1 fuse
* 8mm coil wire

- Junkyard (used) parts:
* ECM (computer)
* MAF sensor
* MAF, Fuel Pump, MAF burn-off relays / connectors

89CamaroProject

mines doing the same thing! will kick really hard but wont start, i think it jumped its timing, so i changed the chain/sprockets, wouldent start, so i messed with the cam and stuff i think its lined up, replaced ignition module under the distributor and still no go, im running out of options, if anyone can tell me what position the timing marks should be in it would be much appreciated, im getting fuel to the injectors or else it wouldent kick, is there anything that im missing? car died at a friends house and never started again.

camaroyoungster

@89camaro the timing marks on the cam sprocket and the crank sprocket should be line up while top dead center on no. 1 cylinder. Also check ignition timing. It can do that too. for both. Ignition timing might be off. Remember it has to be around 10 degrees btdc if I am correct. Mr_metal, you might want to try adjusting the idle screw at the tb or it could possibly be a bad iac valve or timing like I stated before.