what u think ??i guesss not ¡

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1982 Pontiac firebird s/e 2bbl..Club organizator in chile southamerica.https://www.thirdgen.org/rides/index.tgo?action=view&rideid=3280

Sure! If the V8 owner doesn't know anything about his car (except for how loud his stereo and exhaust is), you could beat him. Chances are that he's so caught up in his "big bad V8" that he doesn't even know how to do a tuneup... and it's doubtful he has any real mods.

On the otherhand, take a gearhead, who has got his engine tuned up, with some decent mods, and you'll get beaten- no doubt about it.

But, chances are the gearhead will be cool about the race... if he knows his stuff, he'll be impressed with your engine. The idiot/poser/wanna-be, on the other hand, will insult your engine if you win or lose. At least, that's my experience.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

i dont know about that i have a hard enough time beating my friends 3.8L V6 but just barely, its all over when he shifts to second those things can pull like no other, i'm hoping to beat him when i do my 3.4 swap (DONT THINK I GAVE UP ON IT KED85). Not trying to get off calderon's topic but could a lightly modded 3.4 beat a 3.8?

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91 Blue RS with ASCD SS hood w/hood pins, Flowmaster 80 series w/3 inch dual exhaust, K&N, Hypertech Power Chip, Bosch Platinum wires and plugs

I beat a 305 camaro many times and 5.0 mustangs all the time keep in mind the 5.0 mustags have the same HP we 140 maybe 150 Reno will back me up on this one

With the foundation you ahve on your car, NOW, it seems like avery strong possibility!
Don't let him know about the swap, keep it looking stock 3.1!!
He-He!
What gear ya running? 3:42 or above?
When you put it together (3.1->3.4), you will enjoy the results!
Get the lowest milage one ya can for your money & effort spent.

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Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

well with the latest mods I did to my 3.1 I walk all over my 92 TBI (I know it has like 160 HP MAYBE?) but its still a 8. I used to hang with before the polishing but now I walk away after I get above 3K.

I have beaten more then my fair share of V8's but i had a really modded out 3.1L and Nos, stock for stock however you should be able to pace a older 305 firebird, and alot of the 80 to 84ish 5.0 mustangs, they were light cars but had horrable engines. The 86 to 92 5.0 5 speeds - forget it, and the AOD in the same year while not as fast in the 1/4 as the 5 speeds still did 15.5 stock with a driver that didn't know how to drive. Add a K@N and exhuast and it was low 15's easy. I had a 88 LX 5.0 with a AOD and whipped many 305 firebirds with exhuast and K&N, got gears and was holding up to modded camaros, redid the engine and was beating alot of firebirds and camaros 69 to 96 at epping raceway in new hamphire. Was running 13.98 to 14.15. This was on a AOD mined you, got a 125 shot installed and ran a best of 12.78ish. There not slow cars dispite the love/hate relationship GM and ford lovers may or maynot have. Can ya build a 3.1L to run high 13's? yeah, it will cost ya 4K and about 3 months - but it can be done.

If a 4 cylinder can do it why can't you do it. No seriously a stock 305 or 350 thirdgen really was nothing for power. The thridgen you can say stock was a disgrace to the American V8 power houses of the past. you did have a few shinning stars during the run of the thirdgen, but stock do not worry to much...

Its true that a lot of guys with v8's even tpi's do run high 15's and sometimes in the 16's if they've got a 5sp and dont shift well. I have yet to get to the track but my supposed 345ft.lbs/tq is quite apparent, hard to keep traction most of the time. If you guys got your v6 up to 200hp, and with the weight break you'd have a lot of fun against most 305's. Driving my GTA is a lot quicker off the line than my 2.8L was but I feel on the highway theres not much separating them.

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89 GTA - L98, Black on Black Leather, T-Tops

RIP: 87 Camaro Sport Coupe

double post.

[This message has been edited by matlock (edited July 19, 2001).]

i have to disagree with the 86-92 5 speed 5.0... i think if your modded enough you can stand your ground.. last time i messed with a 90 gt, i didnt get killed, i didnt move from right behind his rear bumper.

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1989 Firebird
2.8 v6, t5 swapped in

Ram Hi-po clutch, Cold Air, 1.6 rockers,Lakewood LCA's, Lakewood Lift bars, Wonder Bar, 3" y-pipe, Random Tech Cat, 3" I-pipe, Flowmasters, MSd 6a, MSD Coil, Accel 8.8 wires, Auto Meter Gauges (Water, Clock, Fuel Pressure, and 5" Sport Comp Tach)TB Bypass, 4th Gen Seats

Coming for my v6:
Panhard Bar, 4thgen front seats, Nitrous, Line Lock, Posi, Spohn Torque Arm & Subframe connnectors

"I'd rather run last in a full out race, than to NOT have run at all"
#3 Forever

Good point; all the racing I did against V8's was on highways, not from a dead stop!


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

a 88 to 92 5.0 5 speed was in the low 15's to high 14's. It would take a 180 to 200hp 3.1L to pace him and even then he is gonna get ya in 3rd gear. They truely pull hard. The reason i say this is its not the HP that you have to concider - its the 275 ft/tq they have stock coupled to a 5 speed. there torque curve is alot flatter and higher then a modded 3.1L. if they can keep say a average of 200 ft/tq across 3k to 5.5K and you can do a average of 160 ft/tq across the same rpm band - factor in weight and guess what.... you lose. I have found this to be true when dealing with our little V6's... a 91 has 140hp and 180 ft/tq... that "seems" in real runs against pretty equal drivers and cars to translate into 170hp and 210 ft/tq... thats why we can pace a firebird 305 with little problem. they were what? 170hp/190ft/tq in the "bad" configs?. On my build of the 3.1L i also found that no matter WHAT i did to the engine it would do a best of 235 to 245 ft/tq... thats about all it will do on a NICE race prep. The curve was ok as far as flat. The ONE thing that really shines however in our builds is the addition of NOS... the engine really reacts to it like a V8 as far as power... HP will boost way high, say you have a 225hp 3.1L and add 90hp NOS - expect a short spirt to 375 to 400hp, then it "bleeds" down to about 280ish. Its like the engine goes into a major boosted stage then clears itself out. Torque reacts the same way but not nearly as high - altho a progressive system may have helped that. With 90 NOS expect to pace/beat the snot out of a 97 to 99 firebird 350 - unless there running the silly gas too - then its get taken out but have the last laugh when ya show your engine compared to his (laugh)... anyways hope the torque thing made sense. Any old timer racer will tell ya the same thing. Its a reason i get a laugh at these guys switching from a 305 to a 350 to get below 14's. There building for HP - there not building for torque and there not building according to what their gear times on the 1/4 are.... AKA there not building smart....

Were not talking GM 5 liters anymore are we?

The 3rd gen f-bodys with the L98 motor puts out more torque than new LS1 350's. Of course the hp of the 5.7 tpi is a lot less. A 305's torque is quite a bit lower however and also modifying them doesnt produce the same gains.

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89 GTA - L98, Black on Black Leather, T-Tops

RIP: 87 Camaro Sport Coupe

[This message has been edited by matlock (edited July 20, 2001).]

Yeah your right until you biuld the engine to do what you want the car to do. You will never get the same hp/torque out of a 350/305 mod for mod. there different beasts, they react diffent and 45 cid is alot to play with in a race preped block. Remember the formula for race prep? 1.2 times the cid gives the approx hp your gonna get with the right build/part.... 350 should be about 420hp and 420ft/tq and 305 should be 360hp 360ft/tq about 60hp/tq differance really and all for the hassle of changing out a block. I rather run a progessive system in the NOS department and be able to run 50hp more in NOS or gear the car to react the same in the 0 tp 60 department. Realistically how many builders that drive there cars ever see over 70 to 80 mph on a daily basis? How many if there gonna race start at a red light or at 60mph on the highway. I dunno about you but in a V8 car 120 is about my limit, if i lose due to not wanting to go faster, that is my problem i guess. Its not worth killing myself over a driver that didn't see me, or a gust of wind or a deer/animal running infront of me, or a competitor that needs to win and has to push it abit faster only to get stupid and cut me off. My old 88 lx 5.0 i raced a twin turbo 300zx, i kept pace to about 125mph where he slowly started to walk away. To this date i still think he was toying with me as i have beat moddified 5.0 LX's in a car like that with no problem. It was in washington state on I5 coming from kent to tacoma near the dome. I inched the car to 140 where my VERY acurate after market speedo pegged. My window was cracked as i was smoking just before the race and the wind noise was deafing. We came around a slight left hand turn and went into a right, both times i was on the inside of the corner and swept to the outside as we finished the turn. Things happen way to fast and to this date i do not know if we passed anyone at that speed. It was at 12 midnight. I was to focused on the road and what layed 1/2 mile ahead. everything else was tuned out. I remember looking down as i saw the turbo passing me and saw 140mph at 5100 rpm. the next morning i still had the rush in my blood and it was the last time i ever went that fast. Anyways i degress. 305 firebirds can be made to run 13's, 350's are easier but really not all that. You really just need to be smart in the build. Any race builder thats worth a penny will tell you that. If there are anyquestions about it, look at the competition running small engines and 300+ hp. Whether done via NOS, turbo or supercharger. Build smart and build it to work and it will run better then any V8 cid for cid.... Not blasting V8's either, i like torque and the rumble but just being honest. for the record btw.... a 3.1L and/or 2.8L engine weighs in at 351lbs.... a 305cid and 350 wieghs in at 525 to 575lbs - respectively. The 1991 firebird weighs 2870lbs without engine, or as much as a fiero WITH engine weighs. So of the get go a V6 is better suited to zip corners and weighs 174lbs less then a comparable 305. The weight transfer in the V6 is faster, traction is better and the 50/50 mix is alot better. Not saying a V6 will beat a 305 all the time, its driver skill and engine torque to the ground times weight that will decide that. But there really not all that. Would i like one? sure would. But there not that fast or better.

(the opinions expressed in this email will prolly get me flamed - but know what, go build a V6 3.1L to 13.8 and then come talk to me! (laugh with a big smile)) V6 guys, i love ya, you are the underdog and i would help ya in anything ya need.... yes a 2.8 to 3.1L will can/has beat a V8... just be smart in the build, the rest is gravy.

well all I know is my "new" 3.1(Isay new cause it seems like an entirely different engine) can walk away from alot of stock or very slightly modded 305 TBI's. 305 TPI's still walk away from me, but not quite as bad as before. I loved taking out this guy in town that thought his 305 TBI was the "*hit" before I did my polishing then went back about 4 days ago and beat him 5 outta 5 times and got 200 bucks from him. All I did was laugh after the first race then he kept sayin he could beat me so he started putting up money and I kept taking it from him... Anyway thats my 2 cents.

I know it'll take some work to get a 3.1 to beat a V8, but I think it would be awesome to go around beating the snot out of V8's. I will say for my defense that I was looking for a V6 (economical reasons) when I came across my car, but mine was the best F-body I had seen in a long time at it's age (I live in NY mind you).

Anyway, to get to my point... has anyone ever tried to swap in a 3.9L twin turbo Porsche setup? The 911 makes 400 Hp and ~450 lbs-ft if I remember corectly. 0-60 in 3.7 isn't that bad, I would imagine that to be the ultimate V6 combo...

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1984 Firebird - Daily driver, 305 LG4, T5 - Hurst short shifter, Edelbrock 600 CFM Performer Carb - Edelbrock Pro-Flow air filter, gutted cat, IROC 16x8 Wheels, Goodyear P215/60/R16, AIWA bargain basement (from Sears of course) CD player
Check out my ride here

Quote from my sister: "It sounds like a boat"

Turbo Trans Ams run 13s stock with a V6. Yeah, they have a 'power adder', but those Buick turbo 6s make a **** load of torque! My TBI 305 powered mostly stock RS runs mid 16s. Last time at the track, I ran against AmorgetRS in his 2.8L Firebird. I ran a 16.57 to his 17.28. With exhaust and intake mods he could probably beat me. Thus, a V6 can be made to out perform a V8. However, my '85 Z28 305TPI would have smoked him!

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'91 Camaro RS - dark red metallic - '91-'92 Z28 wheels - leather - all power options (except power seat) - t-tops - Clarion head unit - Pioneer 4way 200watt 6x9s - Rockford Fosgate Punch amp and 2 Fosgate 12" subs - Edelbrock open element w/ K&N filter - Random Technology highflow cat - some free mods, more coming soon...

LOL! Thats is the same route I driver everyday as I live in Tacoma and work in Kent! Small world, ehh?!

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'91 Camaro RS - dark red metallic - '91-'92 Z28 wheels - leather - all power options (except power seat) - t-tops - Clarion head unit - Pioneer 4way 200watt 6x9s - Rockford Fosgate Punch amp and 2 Fosgate 12" subs - Edelbrock open element w/ K&N filter - Random Technology highflow cat - some free mods, more coming soon...

Horsepower is not the biggest deal when it comes to beating a V8. I've beat plenty of V8 Rustangs,Other V8 firebird/Camaro,old Dodges. I just because i could out drive them on the corners, while they were trying to take corners in there own lane, I was making time driving the appex(inside lane). I you have V8 like power under the hood thats great, but if you are a good driver it's all about keeping the competion behind you.

Rob

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Chevy 2.8L 60° V6
Mods:
•K&N Filter Lid
•87 Formula Hood
•Bosch Platinum +4
•Hi-Flo CatCo CAT
•Flowmaster 80 Series Muffler
•83 Trans Am 15x7 Turbo Fin Wheels
•B.F.Goodrich Radial T/A 225/60-15
•Chevy 2.8L Heddman Headers (Going on soon)


http://www.geocities.com/fiream/RobsCarArtPa.html?994187591828

um its not a v6. Its a flat 6 and would never fit betweent he front shock towers.

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-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

To be installed eventually far far far into the future: Yours if the price is right and I don't have to ship :
Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248), Catco 3" cat, and injector spacer.

Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz

I'm telling you, the Buick turbo V6 is the hot ticket in the f-body! Just ask the '89 Turbo T/A owners! I'm gonna build one if I can come up with the cash.

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'91 Camaro RS - dark red metallic - '91-'92 Z28 wheels - leather - all power options (except power seat) - t-tops - Clarion head unit - Pioneer 4way 200watt 6x9s - Rockford Fosgate Punch amp and 2 Fosgate 12" subs - Edelbrock open element w/ K&N filter - Random Technology highflow cat - some free mods, more coming soon...

The LS1 is actually 346 ci.



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2001 Black WS6 T/A A4
Direct-air flow lid w/K&N filter

daily driver '88 ford taurus AKA "the tank"