hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

I thought I could get a base tune down for this new motor but I cannot seem to get the the open loop tune to richen up. The motor fired right up in limp home mode and ran 14:1 to 16:1 on the WBo2, but now that I have a correctly burned chip in there I cannot get this pig to dial in.

Here is where I'm at:
Motor

• 350 4 bolt .030 over
• 10.5:1
• Accel base, SLP runners, plenum matched
• Custom Comp Cam made for LT1 (.575 int/exh 111 lsa)
• Edelbrock aluminum heads (2.02/1.60 165cc)
• Hooker 2055's

All parts were dirt cheap/free/on the shelf. If I need to change the cam, so be it.

Tune
ARAP bin

• All flags set for 1989 dual fan, VATS disabled, MT, shift light, etc.
• 30# injector entered to match my SVO red tops
• 8* initail timing
• Haven't touched MAF tables or scalars yet.
• Dropped fan ON/OFF temps to match 180* thermostat
• Crank Fuel PW Multiplier VS Ref. Pulse (1-8) to .5 to fix long crank starts

Other than that, I need some direction. I've read so much tonight that my vision is blurry and I have my first real headache in years (hangovers don't count ) Right after a cold startup (about 50 degrees in the garage) the WBo2 reads 13:1 or 14:1 and climbs up to "---" or unreadable (brand new AEM). It will continue to run albiet a little choppy. I haven't let it run too long for fear of melting parts

Install an AFPR?
Change the FI size to fool the computer?
Startup Enrich VS Coolant?
Open Loop AFR Ratio % Cange vs. Coolant Temp?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

whats the duration on the cam?

What do your spark plugs look like when the car idles for a bit with the wideband showing "---"?

I bet its ok as long as its still idling because "---" likely means over 18 to 1 air fuel and that wouldnt run on a motor. What you are seeing is overlap effects and the car is simply seeing excess air in the exhaust stream due to the cam.

My buddy's car is a 360" motor with a big 230/236 cam and at idle it will sit around 16-17 to 1 with his AEM wideband and gauge, but sometimes go to "---" but give it a bit of gas it comes back down to 14-15 to 1 like it should be. Its just overlap fooling the sensor at idle. Check the spark plugs for idle tuning with a big cam.

You can check yours with alittle bit of throttle to see if the wideband starts to read normal.


But on cold starts or even first starts....2 tables to look at for fueling. Startup Enrichment vs Coolant temp and Open loop Enrichment vs Coolant temp. I'd start there to see how the motor responds to fueling. At first start, the ecm is in startup mode and delivers fuel based on that startup enrichment table. Then that decays and it goes straight to open loop mode while the o2 sensor is warming up and while the coolant is warming up. So first start watch the wideband and see where the air fuel swings...then let it warm up and watch what it does as startup mode decays out.

Once it gets hot and warmed up, if you are trying to go for closed loop, tweak the MAF table 1 to dial in fuel. If keeping open loop, continue to play with open loop vs coolant and also MAF table 1. Maf table 1 is mainly for idle and since open loop enrichment is a global change, it may effect other areas of the motor's operation so only mess with it sparingly.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the tips! I've tuned my Bel Air that has Accel DFI but that's a whole different animal.

LT1 3196B/3120B HR111 E (or upside down 3?) C8553.

Looking at Comp's Lobe catalog:
3196 Intake
Duration - 288
Duration @ .050 - 236
Duration @ .200 - 162
Lift -.585

3120 Exhaust
Duration - 304
Duration @ .050 - 244
Duration @ .200 - 161
Lift -.575

The B throws me for a loop, but the journals fit perfect. The cam was a freebie and I wanted a little lope in the exhaust but it might be overkill.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That cam is HUGE for this motor. You only have TPI on top with small 165cc heads. That cam will turn near 6800 rpm hp peaks. It will be abit rough to get that one to work. Probably need to set desired idle speed to 1000 rpm and give it 28-32 deg timing at IDLE. That will help stabilize things abit but theres gonna be alot of overlap on that setup to the point that getting a good wideband reading at idle will be difficult.

jjlabinski

The LSA is a little low for TPI.

Bump that timing up to 10-12 ish

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm running 110/108. Open loop

-- Joe

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

I knew it would be big for the motor but my Dutch heritage got the best of me...free things always catch my attention. I thought I might have to run open loop for the low RPMs, and probably get a new cam

Dominic Sorresso

You're better off w small cam/big heads and not vice-versa. Suggest you read cam articles by David Vizard discussing optimum cam specs based on displacement and low lift head flow.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Definately force open loop. Idle tune by looking at vacuum and spark plugs. Give it timing and 1000 rpm idle. It will stabilize out. Fueling will be harder to monitor since the overlap may skew the wideband o2 sensor reading and definately skew the narrow band.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

I understand that I went down the less traveled path. I bought the heads bare and very cheap but had to put $600 into machine work, valves, lunati springs, etc. Had I known I would have bought some Procomp 190cc and had them worked over by the same head guru here in Grand Rapids.

If I can't get this thing dialed in enough to get it to Detroit then I'll have Comp grind me a cam.

Back on topic though:
I didn't have a lot of time to mess with the tune but did set the injector size to 26 to increase the PW but it ran worse. Definately overlap causing the WB to not read right, which I didn't think of when slapping that cam in. Below is a spark table, pretty much took all the values under 28 and brought them up...give it a try? One thing I want to make sure - I take it that this table is for total advance and do not have to add the initial.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Oh, and I currently have my WB in the NB spot for the time being and it's emulating a NB curve to the ECM. Once I have the full exhuast on and sorted with the cat and cutout I will relocate it further down and put the NB back into the left header.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Your timing curve is very aggressive, much like ARAP bins. I'd make that value at 64 LV8 and 1000 rpm 28-29 to match the other values around it. I'd even try to make 1200 rpm and LV8's up to 80 about 32 to slowly ramp timing in since that cam wants 1000 rpm idle more than likely, and it will surge up and down between 1100 and 900 so the timing values at 1200 and 800 need to be similar to 1000 to eliminate some surging.

That is total timing with the base timing already included UNLESS you have PE enrichment spark advance table not equal to 0. PE mode will add timing unless you make those all 0. I'd do that to make it easier to work out of 1 table than 2.

Your WOT timing curve could be improved as well in the 180-208 LV8 ranges.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

ARAP is what I'm building this tune off of. Should I pick something else?

It did look like a lot of timing. Knocked it down and smoothed it out...look better?

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

I'm used to the old school train of though "All in by 3000 rpm" so this timing RPM vs load is a bit new to me (assuming LV8 is load).

Better yet?

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

And thank you very much for the help!! Big fan of your motor, maybe one day I'll get around to putting twin's on (or in, giggity) my 55 Bel Air

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah you are doing it right, all in by 3000 is a good place to start, but you are at 32 by 3000 and 36 overall. Not bad. You can try to add more down low to see if it helps.

Timing curve looks good for now, just smooth it out some. See some dips/peaks in there that should show valleys/peaks in the 3D graph mode. Keep playing with it until you find something the motor likes. 36 deg overall at WOT will likely work best.

Just make sure PE mode is not adding spark!

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure if the motor didn't like the extra timing or something else, been trying to do one thing at a time but I've cought myself doing a few "what if I did this" in between flashings. So I started over with a APYP bin. I had to slip off the cat because it was igniting unburnt fuel and blasting my driveshaft/fuel lines...yikes. Need that Hooker catback soon! I'm going to head out and check the new setup pretty quick, I'll check back in a few.

30# injectors
cold crank fix
fans lowered
zeroed out PE vs Spark
changed spark table - smoothed, looks to be a better base (22* idle for now, 36* total)
maxed out closed loop enable

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

I still cannot get the RPM's to raise. It fires right up, idles choppy at 6-700 rpm. My oil pressure gauge worked fine before starting the new motor...it pegged after it started the first time and now sits at 30 with the key on and 60+ running. Assembly lube to blame for such high PSI during first start? I did prime the pump after assembly.

Here is a short phone video right after startup.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video....00421522163122

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Whats the IAC doin? You do a reset of the IAC and adjust the throttle blades?

Want to disconnect IAC and fire up the car. Open throttle blade set screw til you idle about 100-150 rpms below desired normal idle speed ( looks like you want to target 975 rpm or so). Then shut down, replug in the IAC connector and start back up. Should idle near your desired rpm with IAC counts well below 50, but higher than 10.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

IAC is new and working, I just don't know where it's at since my OBD I adapter is in storage with the Bel Air. I went out there to play around a bit, I pulled the IAC plug and cranked and cranked and cranked the adjuster up till it finally brought the idle up. I didn't think it would need that much from a 305 to a 350. Reset the TPS to .54v. Anyway, it seems to be learning the idle.

The exhaust is neaseauting. So rich that it burns my eyes after a bit. The garage isn't small (2 wide, 2 deep) and had all the doors open but I had to bail right after the fan kicked on at 195*. WBo2 still reads "---" but drops to ~14:1 with a quick stab of the throttle. I need to read up and see if there is an open air calibration procedure for this AEM unit.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Check the plugs after idling for a bit...may be overly rich and false readings are showing on the wideband.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

My heart sank, nearly cried. Then I wanted to go find the guy who sold them to me saying "These are what ya need." and hit him so hard that his clothes would be out of style when he came back around.



I'm searching the number 4 cylinder with a magnet some more tonight, I looks like the ground strap broke off pulling the plug out. I'm going to be livid (might already be on that level, what's higher?) if the threads are messed up on any holes.

Got a good plug recommendation?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Autolite 3924, standard copper core plug. 5/8" hex, 3/4" reach, 14mm thread, flat gasket seat.

RBob.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Thanks! Picking some up in a few hours

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

WHAT HAPPENED!!!!! Those plugs look like hell!

I sure hope the valves/pistons are ok

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Reach is too long. Note how the plugs that were firing have carbon on the un-threaded portion of the shell. They were inside of the chamber

RBob.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

After looking up the plugs I was told were right (NGK FR5-1...wrong!) I saw they have .800 reach I think. Who knew .050 would get them smashed up like that. I pray that everything is fine, cannot afford to redo this thing. I had to get Bosch Super+ 7963 for now, they only had 6 Autolite in stock.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You know what, that NGK plug is listed as a 3/4" reach on their web site:

www.ngk.com/results_cross.asp?pid=fr51

However, the projected nose is really projected. That may be the real issue. Can see a picture of the Bosch plug here:

www.theautopartsshop.com/spark-plug/bs7963.html

And looking at an Autolite 3924, it too has the shorter nose like the Bosch plug.

RBob.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

What model edelbrock heads? Are they a vortec type? I thought vortecs took a shorter reach than the typical .750.

Could you not hear/feel those things making contact with either the valves or pistons?

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

They are Edelbrock Performer Centerbolt Cylinder Head 60859. The local guru cleaned up the castings, milled them ever so slightly, etc etc. I couldn't hear them hitting, I even turned the motor over by hand (breaker bar & socket) and didn't even notice. I think it was just enough to hit the ground strap. None of the plugs have any damage to the center electrod or the ceramic around it, three have some markings on the ground strap where they were pushed into the center electrod. It's really amazing that this thing ran at all!

What I'm REALLY worried about is the #4 cylinder. I cannot find the ground strap. I checked with a magnet, blew the cylinder out with air, but found nothing.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

I worked on #4 cylinder for a good 15 minutes with various magnets and tools that I magnetized, still nada. I put the new plug in and fired it up, gave it a few good quick revs praying that it would fly out the exhaust if it was present. Sounds MUCH better though, WBo2 readings are higher (17.5 to ---), double checked timing and locked it down for good at 8* inital. I'm heading off to class now but will do a compression check late tonight or tomorrow for good measure.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I ran a cylinder lean and burned off a ground strap on my motor once. Never found it, I think it went out the exhaust but hard to believe that little piece of metal could escape thru a valve moving THAT fast. Inspected the motor after i tore it apart and no markings on pistons or bore or heads... interesting.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Never made it out to the garage today, too busy with a statistics project. While on a snack break I opened up my tune and started searching around. Should I leave Spark Correction - LV8 vs Coolant and Startup Spark Advance vs Coolant stock?

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Lets see if I'm on the right track.

I disabled the spark correction by setting the disable temp to -40* and zeroed out the startup spark advance. I don't want to add any spark at this time, and the car will only be a summer vehicle. I may play around with them at a later date.

I disabled closed loop by setting the enable temp to 304*. I bumped up Open Loop AFR Ratio % Change vs. Cooolant Temp up to about 25% (11.76:1 ?) and it smelled rich still but didn't burn my eyes as badly, so less NOx I assume. Still reading --- on the wideband but comes down more at 1200 RPM than before. I'll push it out of the garage tomorrow after work, if it isn't snowing that is.

I did get my Mastach ALDL hooked up. Still need to figure out how to get it and TunerRT Pro to toss data around. I got EFIlive V4 to chat with the ECM but have to do a weird process with the settings to get it to connect. It also said my CTS was reading at 35*C but the sensor checked out correctly around 2800 ohms... The o2 stayed at .451v too, disconnected or not. This was all without the engine running though

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Just another update, even if it is to myself This way I can keep track of what I have and have not done.

Put in the spare MAF, car ran 11:1 and blew out more black than my buddies duramax I canned the idea of using my USB to rs232 adapter, just too much going on there to get it to connect. I have an old laptop using TunerPro RT v4 which connects just fine.

At idle:
~950 rpm
~12 grams per second on the maf
~28-29* advance
~60 lv8

Pretty sure the IAC is clogged. The counts climb from start up all the way up to 160 with no change in idle speed. I'll rip it apart tonight and clean it, I have to install the SLP air foil and paint the top plate anyway

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Had the hose coming from the TB to the vapor canister in the wrong spot

IAC steps range from 40 to 60 at idle after warm up. I upped the timing to 34* at idle and got a pretty steady vacuum of 7"Hg and made a big difference in the exhaust tone. I then set the injector constants to 28lbs which raised the manifold vacuum up to 8"Hg.

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

If Engine Analyzer 3.9 is any good, this should be a fun car

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

With those heads and TPI, i think those results are optimistic at best but atleast you are on the right track with tuning

hoogiesngrinder

iTrader: (1)

Probably, flow data is pretty decent on them though. I was bored so I thought I'd give it a try. I found all the flow and dimension data for the base and runners to get as close to what I have as possible. I'm just happy to see numbers over 400

Edelbrock 60859
.100 64 / 54
.200 72 / 96
.300 177 / 124
.400 217 / 147
.500 229 / 166
.600 232 / 175

Everything above the heads was picked to flow more than 232 cfm, except for the MAF. Might remove the screen & fins and go from there. My compression seems to be less than I thought, I've seen it listed different all over the place so I'm going with 9.7:1. Peak HP ~ 433, peak Tq ~ 427

Output:
------ Valve Flow & Cam Calculations ----------------- --Int-- --Exh--
Overlap Area, deg*sq-in 10.6 Vlv Area, deg*sq-in 273.6 208.8
Total Exh/Int % 76.3 Total Avg Flow Coef 0.292 0.346
Lobe Separation, deg 111.0 Lobe Area, inch*deg 30.28 30.85
Overlap, deg 74 Duration @ .003, deg 291 301
Overlap @ .050, deg 18 Opening Events, deg 35 82
Closing Events, deg 77 40
-------------------- --Int-- --Exh-- Duration @.050, deg 236 244
Duration @.200, deg 158 162 Opn Evnts @.050, deg 7 53
TDC Tappet Lift, in 0.071 0.084 Cls Evnts @.050, deg 49 11
Gross Valve Lift, in 0.585 0.575 Lobe Centerlns, deg 111.0 111.0
Net Valve Lift, in 0.579 0.569 Grss Tappet Lft, in 0.390 0.383

------ General Engine Calculations --------------------------------------
Displacement, ccs 5820.3 Displacement, cu in 355.11
Dynamic Comp. Ratio 6.99 Compression Ratio 9.70
Theo. Crank Comprssn,PSI 170 Clearance Volume, ccs 83.6
Pk Secondary Tuning RPM na Idle Vacuum, ''Hg 12.6