spoazzy1

My 305 TBI was running fine up until I went to leave a friends today and the key would turn over, all the power would come on, but it would not even click as if it was trying to turn over. We checked the starter all out and it is operable as they were able to manually engage it, but it will not engage when you turn the key.

We do have the VATS key system on there and am not sure if that could be an issue or not. If so what can we do to diagnose and bypass this? Any and all suggestions that anyone can give me I would GREATLY appreciate!!

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Got a spare key to try?
Try cleaning the resistor pellet on your key and the contacts inside the tumbler that read the key.
Most common cause of no start with VATS is the VATS module can't read the key pellet because of worn or dirty contacts

If the engine will start with the Ign on and the starter jumped ( as your friends did when testing it) then it is not a VATS problem
but a starter problem (VATS prevents the starter from operating and shuts the fuel off )
Faulty starter , faulty starter wiring , faulty starter relay , faulty Ign switch ; much to check

spoazzy1

We tried with both keys and it did the same thing with both. As for when they manually engaged the starter, it would turn over, but still wouldn't start. The whole situation is just strange since literally 3o minutes prior, it cranked up perfectly fine so that I could move it for the lawn guy, then nothing.

91phoenix

iTrader: (5)

Try taking the driver side kick panel off and bypass the starter solenoid. If it cranks then with the key and does not start it would seem to be the VATS. This only bypasses the starter potion of it so helps give a good solid diagnosis. If it still does not crank you have other starter wiring issues.

spoazzy1

Thank you, we will definitely give that a try after checking the obvious connections to the ignition cylinder, and cleaning the contacts. It is just killing me since it was just working fine....now I am stranded without a vehicle! This was our only daily driver.

spoazzy1

We are currently going through and diagnosing if it is the ignition lock or not since it is the easiest to do. I just want to get a bit of clarification in taking the resistance reading using the method below:

I have everything pulled apart and found the connection, but am unable to get a reading on it through two separate meters, so that leads me to question if I am doing it correctly or not? If I am not getting any reading while the key is in the on or off position that should mean that the VATS is bad correct? I just want to make sure before we go through the hassle of tearing this thing apart! I am posting some pictures so hopefully the visuals help. I am just not 100% when it comes to the electrical on the cars, so sorry for all the questions.

henryd3

iTrader: (128)

What usually happens is that one of the wires from the key switch to where you are there gets broken from all the flexing done turning the key back and forth. That is where you should be getting the same resistance reading as the pellet in the key. The rest of the VATS may be okay, but unless the resistance is transmitted through the wires it won't work. Replacing the key switch with a new one could fix it if that is the problem

spoazzy1

Thanks, I ran out of daylight tonight but plan to get a better look at everything tomorrow, and I am sure I will have yet another plethora of questions to follow.

henryd3

iTrader: (128)

The wire you need is usually two small white wires in an orange casing. Can't tell if your colors are off in the pic, or if that is the wrong wire come to think of it. The plug it fits into has two wires also, a white with purple stripe and a purple with white stripe. Should plug together up near the fuse box area. That is exactly what the plug looks like though

spoazzy1

My wires are yellow with a black casing, but plug into two wires that are the white/purple, purple/white combination, and plugged together near the fuse box, so that is what had me questioning what I was looking at because everyone has said to look for the "orange" wires and mine are neither, but it is the only separate two wires coming down the column in that manner...

To get further up the wire for diagnostics, is there a way I can access the wires further up without removing the steering wheel? I know to replace the ignition lock it will need to be pulled, but at least if I can make a determination then I can go and get parts today so we can be ready to roll tomorrow. I only ask because the husband is at work and our friend with the puller can't come help until tomorrow. Then if it isn't then I can move on to everything else. I'd like to try and at least get SOMETHING done today while the kid is asleep....

We got it towed here now to the house last night so it is at least in the driveway, only good news is that if I ever wanted to sell it, the tow truck driver asked the husband like 20 times to call him first. My husband laughed and said the wife would have to be dead before she let me sell her car!

henryd3

iTrader: (128)

Might be an aftermarket part with different color wires? No, you have to remove the wheel to get to the key switch. It's near that end that the break usually happens. Hardest part is carefully fishing the wire in and out through the column, and that's not all that tricky

spoazzy1

The hubs is an electrician so he has plenty of experience fishing wires lol, I was just hoping I could get something done before then...doesn't really matter, mother nature isn't on my side right now anyway. I'll just take that as a sign....

spoazzy1

Since I don't have a puller right now, and I don't have a security light coming on that clearly indicates the VATS, I am going to check into this here starter relay. How would I best go about doing the bypass?

91phoenix

iTrader: (5)

I am not recommending this way but because my VATS was bad I took the cover off the relay and temporily put a rubber band around the contacts to check it. One of the small wires when grounded should activate the relay while cranking. I will try to find the color for you.

91phoenix

iTrader: (5)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...-question.html
Look at post # 6 for wire info for the starter relay.

ASE doc

The 2 largest wires at the relay are the yellow feed from the ignition switch and the tan/white wire to the park/neutral switch. Jumping these two together should allow the starter to crank when you turn the key.

Measuring the resistance of the key's resistor pellet with an ohmmeter placed one lead on each side will tell you the key code, or resistance value of the key pellet. You can then purchase resistors at Radio Shack that total up to match that resistance value. By placing this resistance amount across the terminals of the two wire connector to the VATS module, you will be able to bypass the VATS module and get the car running. So long as the key contacts are the only problem.

By recording the resistance value of the key pellet, you also know what to look for as you test the key contacts in the cylinder and wiggle the switch and wiring to try to locate the open circuit. Do this with the key in the cylinder and the ignition in any position.

The contacts in the ignition cylinder get sticky and dirty and frail to make good contact with the key pellet. The wires also break especially on tilt columns. There are also contacts between the key cylinder and the column housing that connect the key contacts to the VATS harness. If you bypass the VATS, you don't need to replace the cylinder, unless it is worn or damaged somehow. If you want to repair the VATS system. Find the open circuit between the key contacts and the two wires in the connector pictured above. The open is either where the contacts meet the key, a broken wire, or poor connection to the cylinder.

To replace the cylinder, you have to remove the wheel, disconnect the turn signal switch from the column harness and lift it up enough to access the cylinder retaining bolt.

For permanent bypass of the VATS system, there is a bypass module available that replaces the the fuel enable signal to the ECM in the absence of the VATS module. You will need to bypass the start enable relay permanently. If you want vehicle theft protection, you will need to install an aftermarket alarm.

spoazzy1

For grins I decided to see if I could pull any codes using the paperclip method, figured nothing to lose right? Well I got a code 53. Anyone have any light to shed on that, if it even will help?

henryd3

iTrader: (128)

Is it 12 or 53? Computer can't tell if a wire is broken in this case anyway. If the code was 12, that means the computer is working and will diagnose if there is a detectable fault. If 53 you might have counted incorrectly?

spoazzy1

Well it flashed the code 12 three times and then the code 53 three times?

I will go back out and try it again, anything is possible...

Just re-checked, its definitely #53

spoazzy1

I am going to add that upon further inspection tonight, the battery looks like its been leaking some from the top, its only about 6 months old, but well its a walmart battery...so what am I to expect? Gonna find the receipt and have someone take me up there to them so they can test it. I had a similar scenario years ago with my old 86 Caprice, found out I had a bad alternator frying my batteries....tempted to take that off too and have it tested.

ASE doc

Code 53 indicates system over voltage. It means that at some point, the voltage went over 17 volts for 2 seconds. Have you had the battery on a fast charger or booster? The 100amp boost will put the system over 17 volts. Also, check charge system voltage by placing your voltmeter leads across the battery terminals with the engine running. Make sure that your alternator isn't actually pumping out 17 volts. It should be around 14 volts.

Do you have service information for the car? You can probably access All Data at your local library. It's what I use at the shop and it's nothing like the factory manual but it will get you by. If you really love this car and plan on doing your own work, the factory shop manual is printed by Helm's Publishing and is available on their website. It's probably on CDROM by now like everything else and it runs about $130, but this book is pretty much the end all of knowledge and wisdom on your car.

spoazzy1

I can't even get it to start, so testing it while running is not an option right now. I did find that the wire that runs from my EGR solenoid to a port on the front of the throttle body has been melted in half, don't know how long that has been, and probably isn't what is causing this issue (but may be responsible for the rough idle!). Don't even know what to call that connector to get a new one? If anyone can help me there, I'd appreciate it since it will need to be done too.

As for the battery, I did just have it set up on the charger but only to check it and it was set at the 40amp setting for that purpose. Now that I do think of it, I have been watching my battery meter needle fluctuate from when I am idling to when I accelerate. It will drop in idle to just outside of the "red" range and when I hit the gas, spike back up to about the middle of the gauge?

ASE doc

I meant the charge system test for when you do get it running of course. As far as the EGR goes, are you sure you're not talking about a hard black nylon tube? If you are, it is just part of the EGR vacuum harness and I replace them with rubber vacuum hose when they break, which is common on older cars. The EGR line has nothing to do with your no start. One thing though that I have to ask: have you checked your battery connections? You need to unbolt them and pull them back to look for corrosion where the terminal meets the battery side post. This would explain your wandering volt meter. You said that you were able to crank the engine so I don't think the battery is causing your no start, but couldn't hurt to check it anyway.

spoazzy1

The engine will not crank over whatsover, you turn the key and it won't even click. The lights and radio and gauges come on, but there is not a sound when you turn the key, almost as if it's dead to the world.

My husband was able to get the starter to manually crank, but the engine would not turn over and the fuel pump does not engage. The battery is only about 9 months old which is why I didn't think to mention it originally, all the connections are clean and pretty because I bought all new terminal bolts. I have noticed there may be possible leakage from the top on the positive terminal side. The alternator however, is pushing 12 years old now by the manufacture date on the side.

As for the "wire" I was talking about, yes it is the vacuum line, it was so badly melted it appeared like it was wiring! I got it pulled of and laughed at myself. Looks like its time to go through all of the vacuum lines and fittings now too.

ASE doc

Yeah, the nylon lines look alot like wire. They are the weak link in an older vehicle. It's good get them out and new rubber lines in their place.

No fuel pump prime. Hmm, this adds a new dimension to the story. The VATS does not prevent the fuel pump from running. It only prevents the starter from operating and prevents injector pulse. This may not be a VATS issue at all. Take a look at the ECM Fuel Pump fuse that is in an inline fuse holder close to the battery. It is probably blown.

EDIT: I'm thinking, which can be dangerous, about this thing. The fuel pump ECM fuse would prevent the fuel pump from running and would prevent the engine from starting even with the starter manually activated. It shouldn't prevent the starter from working normally. You may still need to verify that the VATS is working. Access the start enable relay and see if it closes when you try to crank the engine. Verify power to the relay on the large yellow wire from the ignition switch when trying to crank the engine. This will tell us that the ignition switch okay and getting power, or not. Check the fuse links that are close to the battery at the junction block on the side of the radiator support. Be sure that they are all good and that the nut is tight. I'll be unavailable over the weekend(my wife does not allow me TGO on the weekend). I will check on your progress again on Monday and hopefully you will have come to a solution, if not I will help you further.

spoazzy1

Well we went and had the alternator tested, and the voltage regulator in it was bad, the battery tested good, but was severely dry, I had to top it off quite a bit. We got a new alternator hooked back up and still no crank, no click, just dead silence like before, only difference is now my battery gauge is finally where it needs to be, it was at about 9-10volts and is now up at the 13-14volts. Knowing that the voltage regulator was bad, could it have fried a fusible link somewhere? Where are the fusible links that I should be looking for?

ASE doc

There are fuse links at the starter Batt terminal and at the junction block that I mentioned earlier on the radiator support, close to the battery. You can test them using the volt drop test, looking for voltage across each one, end to end. There will be no voltage unless the fuse wire is broken. You can also visually inspect them. They will be soft but if they are stretchy, the wire is broken inside the insulation. Check all of your fuses, including the one by the battery that I mentioned before. Also, beware that if your car was actually running on 17 volts, it may have damaged one or more electronic modules, like the VATS module.

spoazzy1

Well we finally got our friend over with the tools and got the steering wheel pulled and lo and behold one of the VATS wires was snapped right off. So now the boys are down at radio-shack shopping resistors. Praying that this does the trick!

henryd3

iTrader: (128)

Pretty good chance this will do it. You can always replace the ignition key switch should you ever feel the need for that measure of security

spoazzy1

It worked beautifully. It was music to my ears to hear that bird fire up!!! Now of course that she has a brand new alternator, freshly charged battery and all new vacuum lines she is purring! Now they just have to put everything back together =)

henryd3

iTrader: (128)

Cool, always great to hear it. Have fun!

ASE doc

Sweet! Good to hear that is was something simple. Happy motoring.

spoazzy1

Thanks guys, really appreciate everything! N

Now I have plenty of resistors for if this happens again because they just bought the only variety package they had which has like 200 resistors in it. The guys were laughing when they got it going again, they never imagined buying a part to fix the car from radioshack! Aside from the hassle of popping the steering wheel, it was an overall $8 fix for anyone else having the issue.

z28dug

iTrader: (1)

Install one of these and you won't have to worry about it again....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-VATS-or-P...069889&vxp=mtr