Drachenblut

Hello All!

I'm a 25 year old University grad and always wanted a Camaro. I recently traded my first ride, a Honda Civic to an older gentleman for his first ride, which is my new 1985 Camaro with the 2.8L MPFI V6.

The engine has been well maintained it's whole life, runs like a top and only has 155,000 KM on it! (96312 Miles) (I live in Canada)

The body has it's original paint but needs a bit of work. Rust removal (all surface rust) and a little hole along the bottom of the driver's door, plus it will need a new coat of paint sometime down the road, sooner than later. Everything mechanically works, tranny is healthy and strong.

I am looking at getting a goal in mind for power and performance. I don't have much experience, but have done some reading, primarily on this site, as to performance etc. I've decided that I would like to stick to the V6 I have, or if needed, swap in a 90's 3.4L V6 from another F body. I am seeking advice and guidance from you experienced board members, as I want to make this living, healthy legend reach her peak over time!

I'm looking at making no more than 250 HP out of my engine. What is the least expensive route to get there? What can I do to do so? What would be the total cost, presuming I have to use the labour services of a mechanic for any major work? Ball park figures, I just want to know if I need to look at saving 5, 10 or even 15 Grand? My goal is to have a nice cruising car with some get up and go, so that I can pass "Ricers" in stock 90's Accords and Civics

Thank you, and I hope to be around for a long time!
Sincerely,
Drach

ex-x-fire

250 is gonna be tough w/ a 2.8 unless you turbo it.
I'd start w/ a 3.4, port your intake, add headers & cat back exhaust, 3.73 rear gears, & add some light weight parts (fiberglass hood, aluminum drums, aluminum driveshaft ect).

88FormulaF_Bomb

iTrader: (1)

350 tpi swap


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Drachenblut

Alright, but the only issue is this: MONEY. And a source for said engine? Would it be better just to go with a crate Edelbrock or some such V8 that makes 300 HP complete, right off the hop?

bwiencek

Money issue - well then I would detail the heck out of the car, sell it and buy a V8 car. If you're bound and determined to keep the V6 car then I would take the above advice and do a 350 swap...

There are 2 routes to get the power you want on a budget. The first is to find a wrecked caprice with the "9C1" 260HP LT1 350 V8 engine in it and swap the engine/trans/wiring harness/computer and such over to the camaro and then part the rest. If you do it right you should be able to scrounge and sell enough parts to get it done for under $500-700.

The next would be to find someone with an older carburated SBC that's been slightly warmed over and just install that in there with a TH700R4 out of another V8 F-body (for ease of torque arm mount).

The only other thing I can think of is to find a wrecked 3rd gen with a 350 in it and pull all the drivetrain parts from it, swap it over and then part out the rest and try and make some of the $$ back from buying the donor.

I've bought wrecks before for the engine/trans and have even came out ahead in some cases when the wrecks were bought cheap enough - I've paid as little as $250 for one engine/trans/computer/wiring harness donor and parted about $600 in misc parts out of the thing in 3-4 weeks and then hauled the rest off to the scrap yard for about $100 in scrap metal! The key was selling parts a little cheaper than they were worth and making deals on misc stuff if someone wants larger items (i.e. the guy that bought the doors I gave him some misc trim and an antenna I think and he was SUPER happy to have paid $200 for the all power doors and gotten the other stuff free)

Drachenblut

Interesting ideas. So why then is it so impossible to make power out of the V6? I mean, the 3L V6 in the Nissan 300ZX of the same era made more power... not to mention, in turbo form, it made 200 horse stock. How much effort would have to be done to turbo or supercharge my engine? With new Cams I should be able to get closer to 250?

The point is, my engine is one of the youngest I've ever seen here in Canada for a reasonable price. I see no reason to throw it away just for an extra 2 cylinders, more weight and the cost of an engine/ripping it out/putting it in/all new fluids/ecu tune etc etc

I would think it better to just keep the engine in there, and improve it as much as possible. If I can't hit 250 horse, I could settle for closer to 200, by modding this engine.

ex-x-fire

I built an 84 sport coupe in the early 90s, it was a 2.8l, 5spd, & a few other options.
I did a standard rebuild, added a edelbrock cam & intake (390 holley 4bbl.), cat back exhaust, 3.73 gears, 'glass hood, & irock sway bars. It would run dead even w/ my friends formula 5.0 tbi, he only had cat back exhaust. It was most likely a 15.5-16 sec car in the 1/4. Thats not fast, but it was fun.

bwiencek

The 2.8L engine isn't known as the best 'performance' engine NOR is it known for it's strength. It's 60* V6 layout was good for a compact installation and that's about it...

Why swap to a 350? Parts costs are MUCH cheaper - example - an edelbrock performer aluminum intake for a SBC - $149, for the 2.8L V6 - $349. Camshaft - SBC - $59 to $129 for most any flat tappet grind you can want and solid or hydraulic - V6 - about a half dozen grinds available easily for $145-179. High/low compression pistons - nothing "off the shelf" available from any of the major piston manufacturers - SBC - can get anything you want from forged turbo low compression units to big domed pistons for well under $500 a set and some great flat top choices for under $150/set Heck performance aluminum heads can be had for $600 (i.e. http://www.kmjent.com/email/20130314.html ) and that along with some light headers should nearly offset the weight difference of the iron headed/block/exhaust 2.8L vs a late model 350 with aluminum heads/intake/headers....

The known weak areas of the 2.8L engine are that it blows headgaskets and cracks heads - not that some of the smogger 350's with lightweight heads didn't crack but you can just replace the heads or look for ones with good casting #'s for no more $$ than the crack prone ones...

The stock crank/rods/pistons would be marginal throwing enough boost at it to get 250 HP out of the engine - it can be done but unless you're just wanting to throw something together to see if it lives or dies before swapping an engine I wouldn't waste the time or $$ in doing it.

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

heres a good link of a v6 fiero build. a fiero v6 and a camaor v6 are very similar.
http://www.fierosound.com/34engine/3400details.htm

bwiencek

Yeah - but that used the 3.4L V6 engine as a base for the build and I didn't see any final dyno numbers from it - If he's got to buy a 3.4L I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they'll cost as much or more than a 350 to purchase.

Honestly The only real savings I could see staying with the V6 would be that he could build his V6 transmission without having to buy a standard 90* transmission core.

If you're wanting to be different and build a V6 then go for it but don't expect to be impressed in the end for the effort/$ spent - from personal experience having done a ford 2.8L V6 in the late 80's It was a waste of a lot of cash and effort as those "new" stock 5.0L was just as fast in the end and could be had with super low miles for $700-900 (remember this was when the fox body 5.0 HO's were relatively new) - I could have bought a complete engine/trans takeout for $1k with ~30k miles and dropped it in over the weekend and had 225 stock HP and probably more with eliminating the converters and running a good exhaust and free flow intake setup

Rolling Thunder

Honestly I think you should sit down and think long and hard at what it will take to get that kind of power. Absolutely no offense intended here but once I hear "I don't have much experience", "money is an issue", and talk of motor work together it just spells disaster. There are just too many cars that get torn apart without a real plan and they run out of money, will, or just put it back together wrong and the motor blows up 3k miles later.

Honestly the cheapest and easiest thing to do would be to start out with a V8 powered car. Trying to build something into something that already exists is just the least efficient way to achieve a goal.

Now it sounds like you like the car and are probably not too keen on selling it. So enjoy it. Throw a good exhaust on the car and call it a day. Some day when you've got $5-10k sitting in a bank account ready to dedicate to a project like this and want to really do things up go for it. Trust me you will enjoy the car more driving it than letting it sit in the driveway in pieces while your pulling together funds and know how.

Drachenblut

Alright. So... where does one get a 350 engine to place into these? How much work needs to be done, what parts will I need to swap one in, and how much money should I save first, in total, for the whole project?

If it's gonna cost me a bunch to buy the 350, then soup it up, I might as well just buy a prebuilt entry level crate 350 and have it plopped into my car. Brand new engine, not sure how much they cost?

Drachenblut

Fair enough. I like that plan, and would look at doing it that way, just saving up and enjoying this car for what it is.

bwiencek

Depends on your mechanical ability - it's not rocket science to put a carburated engine in place of the V6 - plenty of info out there on bolting the parts up. It gets more difficult if you want to retrofit TBI, TPI, or any other multi-port injection since that requires a little more electrical work/knowledge or more $$ for a standalone harness/computer setup.

Here's the options I would look at from easiest to hardest and cheapest for your 250hp goal:
1) 1996-1999 Chevy/GMC pickups and SUV's - pull the MPI intake and put a carburated intake on there and run a carb of your choice and fire it with an HEI - stock 255hp and with the carb intake and headers/exhaust you're looking around 280-290 crank hp - essentially do nothing to the engine itself - I've seen them from $500-1200 for good low mileage ones to ones that have been re-ringed (they say rebuilt but I doubt for $1200 it's a full rebuild)
2) TPI 350 V8 from a wrecked 3rd gen F-body and pull the engine/trans and throw a carburated intake on it. Best part is if you buy an entire car you'll have every piece, nut and bolt to install it - and if you want to swap to EFI on your own it's probably a good place to start since you can use all the wiring, fuel lines, etc.
3) buy a basic 'hopped up' carburated engine from someone - it's a crap shoot but if it's got an aftermarket intake and a cam it should be at least 250hp

Both those options would drop in with the right V8 F-body trans and hookup is as simple as plumbing the fuel, connecting the old V6 gauge senders up to the V8 and go...

4) LT1 engine from a caprice, F-body or corvette (260-300-ish HP depending on where it came from) - will require the wiring harness and plumbing up the EFI which if you're paying for labor can get expensive.
5) Crate engine - these should be more $$ than any used engine but can come with a warranty if someone else is doing the labor that's always nice to have.

Drachenblut

bwiencek,

Appreciate the info. Sounds like a good route to shoot for. Now you didn't mention what a V8 tranny would cost? Here's the deal, and I'll be honest with you: I don't have much mechanical experience. I can do my own general maintenance (spark plugs, oil changes etc) but more than that is currently beyond me, so I would be paying a licenced mechanic to do the labour work of old engine and tranny out, new engine and tranny in. I'm guessing the V6 tranny is totally different and I can't use it with a carbed V8? I would like to get a carbed V8 engine, fuel injection is fine but it's not really what I desire if I am going for power. As for the V8 out of the 96-99 GMC or Chev pickup, why can't I just keep the F.I. system on it and run it standalone? Would that not be cheaper than having to replumb a new intake onto it, not to mention buying the intake and carb?

My goal here is I want to do the swap, turn the key and drive away. I was hoping $5000.00 tops would do the trick, note I'd have to get a shop to do all the labour. Is this realistic?

Where do you find transmissions for the V8? Does it have to be specific to those years? (say I want that 96-99 Chev engine)

bwiencek

You *can* keep the FI off the vortec engine but you'll want to get a custom tune put on the computer to eliminate the post-converter O2 sensor and give a little more power. I if you're doing that then look for a wrecked 2wd pickup truck and grab the engine/trans/computer/wiring harness out of it (trans is a 4L60E or in some rare instances the 4L80E) and you can run it along with the computer to control it and have a good factory unit. You will need an aftermarket torque arm mount (they're reasonably priced) or have one fabbed up (search here for "Torque arm mount" and you'll find plenty of ideas from guys that run TH350's, TH400's and powerglides) or I think you can just swap the tailshafts between the transmissions and be good to go there. The main reason to convert to the carb setup is to get rid of the lower performance truck intake and 'spider' injection setup as they're made for low-end torque (i.e. pulling a trailer) and not higher RPM power.

You'll need to search around for recommendations on shops to do the work - it's a fairly simple "bolt in" job as they came with factory V8's and there's no real custom fab work - the hardest part will be getting them to pull the harness and do the "wire diet" to get it running standalone and then integrate it neatly with the factory harness (which you'll still need for gauges, etc.)

That said - $5k is MORE than reasonable - I've seen complete wrecked trucks for $1-2k (look at rollovers or ones that are t-boned and bent frames) and if possible buy the whole thing, use what you need and then part/sell the rest - if you part it you'll be amazed at what the parts bring like dash cluster, steering column, suspension parts, rear axle, wheels/tires, any good body parts, etc. You can offset a substantial part of the purchase price from selling the pieces and then scrapping the remainder.

The V6 trans in it is for a 60* engine and has a smaller belhousing bolt pattern and you'll need the trans from a 90* V8 engine to bolt up to the 350. Don't overlook selling the V6 and trans (you may want to line up a purchaser first letting them hear/drive the car to prove the condition of each first) The "simple" trans to bolt up would be a 700R4 / 4L60 (non-"E") from a V8 camaro/firebird as it will have the torque arm mount on the tailshaft - I'm fairly certain that your V6's tailshaft would even bolt up to any 700R4 and get you the necessary mount too.

While the engine is out it and you've got to get a tune on the computer anyhow it would be a good time to swap to a more aggressive cam setup and replace the front and rear main seals (the pan gaskets are rubber from the factory and rarely have I seen them leak so just inspect them) as well as consider going to a mild stall converter around 2200-2500 RPM as the truck converter will be a little 'tight' for spirited performance (hint - early stock corvette 700R4 converters stall at 2250 IIRC and are cheap - about $125-$150 reman)

DeltaElite121

Unless you pay a reputable speedshop that can guide you all the way through with high quality attention to detail, then you're usually getting junk for a premium pricetag. I definitely would NOT go that route. I'd buy a junkyard motor before I ever bought one from a generic rebuild company.

It will take some work and money doing it, but it's well worth it for the power difference.. even in a mild application. With the plentiful availability of the SBC, there's no reason NOT to swap one in.

Drachenblut

Ok, sounds good. So what is this SBC you all keep mentioning? I'm new to all this!

DeltaElite121

SBC = small block chevy. In your case, you should go with a 350 SBC if you're looking at being cost productive.. or if you want a little more bang for your buck, a 383 stroker (it's a modified 350 internally-speaking for greater displacement) would be a good idea for spending a few dollars more if you're going the "all new engine" approach.

Forewarning: there's nothing CHEAP about building motors if it's done correctly. Just go into it knowing that and you'll be fine. Those who try to do things cheap usually end up spending twice just to get lesser results. While you don't have to always buy the most expensive parts, it is critical you get adequate parts for your intentions.

Drachenblut

Alright. What about buying a rebuilt 5.7L 350 SBC? One that is just stock and rebuilt, should be around 210 horse to start, even from the smog-choker 80's cars (seem to recall that the Camaro in the 80's could optionally come with one?)

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Don't forget , the front springs in a V6 car will not hold up the increased weight of a V8 , and are likely to bottom out regularly if not changed to the stiffer springs that came with the 8 cyl versions . Your radiator is going to have the water outlets on the wrong sides and will need attention as well . If you've got 8 cyl ideas , a wrecked body/great drivetrain donor car would be your best bet for getting all of the required bits in one handy package .

Pretty sure the battery is on the opposite side on the V6 as compared to the V8 , I don't know if that needs addressing also ?

ex-x-fire

Yeah, I'd definetly check out the 3.4 swaps. Google 3.4 swap boogie.

DeltaElite121

You ultimately need to decide how much you're willing to spend before you pick a direction. Budget dictates literally everything in a build. The more money available, the more your options are. I don't see why you're limiting yourself to such low HP levels when it's easy to make a whole lot more provided you have a competent build strategy. You need to do it right ONCE and be done with it.. otherwise you're just throwing money down the toilet every time you start making changes. Humans innately desire change; that's part of what makes us different from animals.. the same applies to cars. There's always going to be something you want to see different on the car when you start pumping cash into it. Paying money for smogger heads is a total waste of money. I definitely wouldn't do that..

Why bother getting a stock rebuild if you're going to spend that kind of money on trying to make power? Especially if you start from scratch of all things? I'm not suggesting you get a drag motor, but be smart with your money. Once you spend it, it's gone.. and the difference between $1400 and $1900 (for example) may seem like a lot, but after all the money spent getting things finally put together.. you'll really hate yourself for cutting corners. I've personally never done it, but I've known many, many other people that have and they're always just disappointed with nothing to show for the meager progress they made.

Drachenblut

Ok. Well, the problem is I am very new to cars. Being young, large numbers in the thousands seem almost "scary" or insurmountable to save up. I keep hearing so much yes; no; yes; no that I really have no idea what I want anymore.

I guess I'll break it down into some simple yes and no questions:

Can I make 175-200 Horse Power, Reliably, with the V6 Motor in my Car for $4000 or under? If YES, then how, and how much ballpark would it cost me?
If NO or COST TOO MUCH then:
How do I make that much power using a new powerplant.
My total money cap, and this includes everything, and I MEAN everything, not "ok gotta buy this little piece, now this piece etc" is $4000.00
That is all I can see myself throwing at something that is in no means an investment. Once I spend the money, it's gone. It will only bring me enjoyment and usage of a tool/pleasure ride, I will never get my money back out of it at that level.

So yes. What is the best, all in, power recommendation and path you can suggest for an all in total of $4000.00

My roomate just threw 6 grand at his 93 Nissan Skyline GTR. I don't want to make insane power like that, because I do not need it. All I need is 200 to 250 horsepower and matching or slightly better torque.

cuisinartvette

Smart move
When you are ready $ for more just buy a V8 car it will save you tons.
Building a V6 is usually a disappoinment as said by another poster.

DeltaElite121

4K won't get you far if you aren't doing the work yourself. My guess is the average cost for labor in the swap alone at any regular shop will run you about $2800-3500. Doesn't leave much left over for parts...

You've got essentially two options:
1) do it yourself, or find someone else that can help you. $4000 is definitely viable this way.
2) sell your car and find another Z28 that has a 350 TPI in it and call it a day.


Dumping cash into that motor your currently have is just blatantly dumb regardless of which direction you take.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

We are talking $3k plus here to do a swap like this properly.... Just get v8 Z and call it a day. Keep yours as a clean daily and get another car. There's no way swapping the engine in your current car is going to be worth the trouble and expense, ESPECIALLY for someone like you who is currently a bit uninformed and unfamiliar with this sort of thing. If you're gonna swap for ANY stock engine from ANYTHINg that isnt a FREE 305 (that comes WITH the transmission, exhaust, computer, harness, intake, EVERYTHING) then it's not gonna be worth it. Now if you're talking a fuel injected AFR headed 383 with a lumpy cam and a T56 or something... then yeah it's worht the time and money.

But you're gonna spend the purchase price of your car PLUS the purchase price of a Z28 car to get to power levels that are the same as the Z28 car. You see what Im saying?

The car is what it is, unless you want to make it a 400+hp screamer, leave it alone.

You can get a pretty damn nice Z28 for $4k.

KMdoza7

iTrader: (1)

i say just sell the v6 and buy a z28 with a tpi and spend your money on that. i bought an 89 irocz 9 months ago for 1k, i rebuilt the engine and trans, so far ive put about 4000 into the build and i shouold be pretty close to 400hp with a more than capable transmission behind it. its going to be my DD btw. I got my first car when i was 18 which was a fiero gt and i fell in love with it. i blew that engine and after that i was hooked all i do now is work on cars. At first its pretty hard and it seems like you will never be able to get it but all you got to do is research and look at youtube videos about cars.engines ect and it all makes sense eventually. Took me less than a year to get the hang of how a car works. I just finished my first engine rebuild on my camaro it all just takes some time. so before you do anything just look stuff up and familiarize yourself with how a car works

Drachenblut

I like what you guys are saying and I think I've decided my direction:

Do the body work on my 85 Stock Camaro. Make it nice and shiny, add a new exhaust (old one is rotted anyways) and call it a day. Use it as a D.D.

Save up the $4000.00 and buy a Z28 with the 350 TPI (though I hear that injection system is nothing but a headache), or a similar car with a swapped in 350 SBC-Carb. There's a few I've seen floating around in the 3-6 grand ballpark. Does it take much to de-computerize and carb a 350 TPI? Just curious. I like the age when cars were cars and not rolling computers, that's why I don't want something new.

ASE doc

I built these cars a few different ways. The last one I built started as a 91 RS with a 2.8L V6 and ended up with the suspension and power train from an 89 GTA with a 5.0TPI. The swap is not that hard for someone who understands vehicle electronics.

As far as removing the EFI. That's not hard either, though I think it's silly to do away with 80s technology to replace it with 60s technology. EFI can be built to walk all over a similar engine build with a carb. EFI can be pushed alot further and still be drivable.

If you insist on scrapping the TPI, first of all please don't tear it up because someone out there with the sense to use it will want it and these pieces will become rare someday with so many people scrapping them. Then, you need a stand alone distributor ignition(no EST timing control), and a carburetor. Pretty basic stuff. As far as making power and keeping it road worthy, that's why I get paid alot of money.

Ron U.S.M.C.

If your going to do IMO the smart thing than,absolutely buy a 350 . What your looking for is the starting power/torque range of the 350 with all the option of using available parts to make a monster if you want.
I would sell the v-6 soon before you get to attached.

DeltaElite121

Not to be a dick, but that's a very narrow perspective using blanket statements. There are just as many changes to carburetor technology as there have been fuel injection over the years. It's not like people just left everything the same with them and said "LOOKS GOOD, SO I GUESS WE WON'T DO ANYTHING WITH IT TO IMPROVE THINGS". Some people do, but not everyone. Provided things are set properly, the HP gains (if any) are negligable. Both have different strengths and weaknesses, and both require air and fuel balancing. The engine doesn't know any different past that.

Drachenblut

Alright, so lets say I want to buy a clean Camaro Z with the 350 engine. How much should I pay for a reasonably clean example? What years are best? Why?
How many KM are considered "miled out" for these engines? 150K? 250K? 350K? I know it depends largely on application, how it was driven, and maintenance, but in general how long should one of these last with basic care?