slohand

hi guys,

i just bought a accel/lingenfelter super ram to go on my 350 vortec tpi in my 91 z28 conv. it includes only the intake an runners because i have the special scroggin dickie intake to mate the tpi to the vortec heads.

my question is........
would i be wasting my time and money to have the runners extrude honed and the runners port matched to the intake box? any ideas on about how much difference it will make?

ok, thats two questions for those who are counting.

thanks for da help ya'll!!


ps this is one a hellofa great sight for getting information!!:hail:

OMINOUS_87

slohand

Ok so you are talking of having somone else do the port matching on this setup? I sure do hope you know how to use a die grinder.

I also own a Superram SDPC Base combo.

Anyway, the Superram runners flow neary 285cfm out of the box. When the plenum is placed atop the runners those numbers go down due to the mismatch in port openings, port matching the plenum to runners will give a nice benefit.

Matching the base to the runner gaskets I also highly recomend as there will be quite a bit of material to remove at the base openings, they dont align real well with the gaskets. Once you gasket match the base to the runner gaskets you will notice that there is a ton more material that can be removed inside the base itself, alot of work will need to be done for optimum flow.

Now looking at the ports on the base where the heads bolt up you will notice a huge boss for the injectors. They are absolutely disgusting in size and shape. I removed about 2/3rds or more of the actuall injector boss material in each runner so there would minimum airflow interuption to the head. I also ended up taking out to much material from the bosses in a couple cases and wore small holes into where the injectors sit. No big deal though as my goal was to remove as much material as possible, I fixed up the small holes and then reinforced the entire boss with some JB Weld and then modified the actuall injectors themselves to fit perfectly.

All in all I removed about 1 and a 1/2 cups of alluminum, thats right measured in a measuring cup, from the base alone! I didnt measure how much i took from the plenum and runners but when I have a die grinder in hand alluminum parts are not safe! After all porting was completed I fully polished all parts with cross buffs and trimmed the gaskets a bit for a perfect match.

So now to the install itself. The Superram does not fit on the SDPC base!!!!!!!!!! Lots of mods need to occur to make it fit. Due the change in bolt pattern on the vortec bases one of the intake manifold bolts slamms into one of the Superram runners on both sides of the intake. There are also various other little places where the manifold casting does not allow for the boltup of the runners, this is also true for SLP runners, although the SLPs require alot less work. It can be made to work though with some effort. If you are using ARP intake bolts you will need to completely grind the bolt head off and then slot the modified bolt for a srew driver, i cut mine for a huge flathead screwdriver, on 2 bolts only. Then you will need to do some more grinding around the hole where the intake bolt goes through, the sqaure looking platform needs to be rounded out and cut down a bit. After those mods are done you need to grind material out of the outside of the runners themselves to fine tune the fitment. Do the runners last as you dont want to grind through them. Also do your final grinding and fitment with the gaskets in place between the base and runners in place for accuracy.

Right now mine is all bolted up nested atop some some also heavily ported E-tec 170 heads ready to feed air to my 383 which will be dropped in this weekend, I will be looking for high 11's from my combo.

It aint gonna be easy but I hope this helps!

slohand

ominous,

now that i have pulled the shorts out of the seat of my pants, let me see if i got the straight.......

are you speaking about the bolts for the intake and not the runners?

can you tell me which ones caused the problems? can you send pictures of what you are talking about and what you did to solve it?

a machine shop here has quoted me $75 to $125 to match the runners to the box and extrude hone the runners. he has a very good rep and mainly builds race engines for the local track junkies. does this sound about right to you? i have not discussed the intake with him.

the superram came from a guy at lingenfelter through ebay. i got a great price and the pieces are new and the gaskets were included. one small problem is it is missing the bolts. he got me the 12 pt bolts but i am going to have to get the rest. suggestions on where i might find them?????

is this worth the trouble or would i be better off just porting the intake and putting on either siamese and or large tube runners? the superram numbers look rather good though.

concerning the vortec tpi base. you state there is alot of material in the base itself that needs cleaning out. is it worth pulling the intake to machine it? it is a crate engine from scroggin and only has about 8k miles on it since i put it in.

a large thanks for the headup! :hail:

i was goning to do it this week end, but i better do a little more homework first.

good luck with your 383, i perdict 11.7 after proper tune.

OMINOUS_87

Yes the intake bolts, the ones that hold down the SDPC base. There are now 4 bolts on each side Vs. the standard 6. On the drivers side it is the second bolt from the bottom that will interfere and the second bolt from the top on the drivers side.

75$-125$ I can see as a price for port matching the plenum and runners. I imagine though that this does not included extrude honing as only Etrudehone does extrude honing to my knowledge and they are very expensive. Extude honing also has its limitations. While it is bar far the best way to remove a equal amount of material with consistancy throught a port it cant reshaped a port for optimum flow dynamics. A proper port and polish job is the best of both worlds. Someone with actuall hands on can redefine port shape and then with multiple sanding roll passes can eventually put a near mirror polished on their ported surfaces. A good port and polish job is going to be expensive, eqaully as expensive as Extude honing but with a better result. From what I have read from alot of the vette guys is that Lingenfelter charges over 750$ to fully port a Superram combo, base to plenum.
.
I have directions I can email to you with all the bolt information. In a day or so.

It really depends on how much work your willing to do yourself. The Superram setup is an exceptional intake setup. It will alwaysoutperform a LTR setup in every part of the power band on a healthy motor. So back to the DIY thing, th intka will benefit trememdously with porting no matter what you put on top of it. If you are gonna port it you have to remove it. With a little more effort you can the Superram on. Its kinda up to you though. I knwo the cam in your motor isnt all that radical. So if you were to go the long tube route it wouldnt be totally choking you. Although ASM is the only company thats sells a good runner, they are not cheap either. SLP is crap out of the box and also requires massive porting inside. A board member Mike Crews runs a 12.3 with an unported SDPC base and ASM SS runners with ported plenum. You can use that as a benchmark for what you want to achieve.

I dont believe that any part out of the box is a bolt on. I believe that all mass produced bolt on parts need modification before final assembly. So dont use my example as your blueprint unless you are obsessed with complete optimimization like me.

Anyway I dont have a digi cam. I took a bunch of pics with disposable cameras bost most turned out crappy as the camera kinda lived in the garage, in AZ.

Just ask if you have any more questions.

OMINOUS_87

This member has posted the SR instructions on his website. They have all the bolt info.


https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...t=instructions

slohand

on the intake bolts, did you just grind off the heads and slot them? did you just tighten them as much as possible or did you find a way to torque them correctly?

the guy at the machine shop actually said 'port and polish' concerning the runners. i will take them monday and have him requote the price of 75 to 125. sounds like i got a deal. lingenfelter is a little high on the price, 750? hahahaha, i think i will pass.

do you have a 'wag' as to how much difference it will make in hp to have this done. i have the lt4 'hot cam' and 1.6 rockers.

i will probably wait on the intake for now. if i pull the intake i might as well pull the heads and have them ported and polished too. i just want this beast up and going asap!! just not enough tmie right now.

can you explain what you mean by 'with a little more effort you can the supperram on'. (it is in the paragraph starting with 'it really depends on.....) are you just referring to the difference between mounting the sr as opposed to runners etc?

i looked at asm runners but i got the superram for less than the runners cost. i didn't even use a gun!!

i have read mr. crews' 'book', as it were. great reading but long

i hope to be into the high 12s after this is on.

i will be looking for your email. my address is demo@greenvillenc.com. i know its on this sight but i thought this would be easier. (no, i dont know why they put me in greenville when i live in goldsboro)


mega tar heel thanks!!

OMINOUS_87

You may have misunderstood my first post but if you are going to put the SR on the SDPC base you are going to have to pull the base and grind on it in a bunch of places. The 2 bolts that touch the runners are not the only places where interference occurs.

I cut the bolt heads off and then slotted them prior to install. Vortec style intakes only require 11ftlbs and the use of loctite blue as they bottom out so they are not exposed to oil. As far as a TQ spec, I just cranked on em with a big old flathead, I am sure they got about 11ftlbs.

Like I said earlier, the runners already flow alot. The big gains will be had when massive work is performed on the base. This goes for any base in the aftermarket as they all need alot of attention, the SDPC base needs more work due to the injector bosses but nothing that cant be resolved. By just doing the runners you wont net much as the base will still be the limiting factor. I have about 12 hours into my base and no more than 3 hours in the plenum and runners so the 125$ or so you are going to spend now is only the tip of the iceburg as far as porting is concerned if you are going to have the entire setup done properly. I cant imagine any professional charging less than 500$ to do the entire packege from base to plenum. Anything less then 500$ and I would question exactly how much work they are actually putting into the project.

Check the link in my previous post. The directions for the SR are included in one of the posts.

slohand

you are correct, i did not realize i had to pull the base too. that sux. i will call scroggin and order new gaskets monday.

i have not done any of the grinding you are referrring to. are you using an air powered grinder? will a drill or dremel tool work? or will i die of old age before i finish.

i will follow up on the estimate for the intake work.

i just read an article where they reworked the vortec heads and gained well over 30 hp after the rework. i was suprised by that, with pulling the intake it looks like it might be worth pulling the heads too. opinion?????? also what is a fair price for reworking the vortec heads? i know i have seen it somewhere but i cant recall.

i had already printed out the instructions from the site, thanks.

OMINOUS_87

I am running Felpro 1255 for Gaskets. Your local HIPO shop should have them. The 1255s fit the Vortec style port real nice, if you are going to do gasket matching match your parts to the 1255 not the stock gasket, the stock gasket is huge and if you port to its size you will actually hurt performance. The only gaskets you can run on the SR are the ones from Jegs. Do not try to run any other gasket set with the SR.

I dont play with Dremel Toys unless I have to. I use a subcompact size air powered die grinder, it is my tool of choice.

Vortecs can benefit from new valves along with some bowl work and a gasket match. Thats about all they need, search Hotrod's website, they have an article about porting Vortecs. I dont really know about price, I do all my own work.

slohand

dremel toys? LMAO!! i guess that answers that question

i have been looking at one of the small air compressors, guess it's time to get serious.

i will call about the gaskets. thanks

when speaking about changing valves, can you elaborate on that? is that better than a 3 angle job? which would you recommend(valves)?

in the article i read they reworked the exhaust port and that seemed to be where they gained most of the hp. your thoughts and have you reworked yours?

one last thing, can you give me the place to get the bolts?

i appreciate it. if you get this way, stop in and i will feed you and your family!!

OMINOUS_87

How small a compressor are you looking at? I have a Craftsman 30gal 150psi 6hp compressor that I have used to rebuild my entire car, it runs all my tools real well except for the sandblaster where it struggles a bit when blasting big parts, like my 10 bolt. I have not yet tried to paint with it, that wont be for a few months.

You can get the SR gaskets and the 1255 gaskets from Jegs.

Stock valves are stock valves. They are not stainless, they are not undercut, and they are heavy. Alot of people replace the Vortec valves but others just get a vlave job and still make good power.

From the flow number I have seen the Vortec exhaust port needs the most attention. Again gasket matching and bowl work get good results with the least amount of effort and cash. I have E-tec 170s, they are massively ported throughout, they also come with a bigger exhaust valve from Edelbrock.

You can get the ARP intake bolts from Jegs as well. As for the SR bolts just go to a local bolt store, here in AZ I get my bolts at Copper State Nut and Bolt, they always have everything I need.

slohand

i bellieve the compressor is about 20 gal, but i will have to recheck.

i will probly just have the exhaust done and the rest cleaned up and matched.

thanks agian for all your help.

good luck with the 383, let us know what happens.

later!!

OMINOUS_87

Slo

I just got some disposable camera pics developed, not the best pics for what you want to see. I took a few pics of the completed motor yesterday as I am dropping it in on Sat morning. I totally forgot about you otherwise I would have snapped some closeups of the grinding work on the runners and base. Oh well you will be able to see a little of what I am talking about.

If you look in the boxes you see how close the runners are to the base. The clearance between the pieces is no more than .200 or so. Looking at the box with arrows the arrow on the right shows how high the bolts head sticks up. The arrow on the right shows where the runners clear the cut down bolt head, if you look you can see it, I also ditched the washers on the bolts that were clearanced.

OMINOUS_87

Here is a pic with just the base. The arrow in the box points to the clearanced bolt.

slohand

now that looks impresive. i believe the quetion is, how far into the 11s will you go. GOOD LUCK!!

no problems with the MUSHstangs!!

keep us posted!!

Twelvz

forgive my ignorance but

whats the difference between

SR gaskets and the 1255 gaskets ?

OMINOUS_87

1255s are Felpro brand gaskets for the baseplate to heads: 1204, 1205, 1206 are the typical gaskets for the basplate to head but for the Vortec style parts 1255s are needed: the 1255s are as tall as a 1206 but as wide as a 1204: approx the same toal area as a 1205. The Vortec design is a tall port runner: for a high velocity charge.

The SR gaskets are for the upper intake parts: lid to plenum, plenum to runners, runners to base.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Here is another way to solve the problem:

I took a rotary file and lowered the surface and the used a countersink and a tapered head 5/16" allen head bolt. Now the bolt head is flush. (had to do this on two of them) Walla...problem solved
Look closely at picture again and you will see it.


https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...34#post2022034

OMINOUS_87

Nice DD.

Question though:

When you counter sunk the bolt hole, how tight is the bolt to the walls of the counter sunk hole?

slohand

So, who guys votin for again?

glad to see this discussion is still going on. i have had so many other problems with the car i haven't had a chance to try to put the super ram on yet. maybe after Christmas.

i know it's a little off subject but what the he11, i can't be perfect.