Every source I have read agrees that upgrading to 1LE brakes is a great improvement on any Third Gen. Also, it is clear that the WS6 package did not include the 1LE brakes.

According to Motorweek testing, the 1989 TTA with 1LE brakes did 60 - 0 in 137 feet compared to 117 feet for 1991 Pontiac GTA. This makes it appear that for a 1991 WS6 package going to 1LE brakes (granted 1989 1LE brakes) would be a downgrade.

What am I missing?

I tried doing a search was unable to find this comparison. Seemed like all discussions just ended with 1LE brakes are an upgrade.

 

The TTA was a way more powerful car, those take longer to stop

Seriously though it’s hard to say. There are a lot of variables when it comes to tests like that. For example weather conditions, driver skill and ability, differences in the cars, etc.

I would assume the TTA is much much lighter on the nose, maybe that combined with the big brakes lead to an unfavorable stop? Or if they just mashed on the peddle the fronts lock up increasing distance? And maybe the opposite with the fully loaded GTA. More weight on the nose with a smaller rotor? Just throwing things off the top of my head here lol.

Bigger brakes are always know to be better so maybe there is a variable that’s overlooked between the two who knows

 

got a link to what you read? would like to see it. wondering what the weight difference is between the cars....

 

Just forget about the 1LE and do LS1 upgrade you won't be disapointed! 1LE parts are hard to near impossible to find anymore. Not sure if the 89 1LE's had the crappy iron caliper rear disc brakes or the PBR's. The 91 if it had rear disc would have had the PBR calipers and that might explain the shorter stopping distance if the 89 had the crappy iron caliper rear disc.

 

I'm no expert on magazine articles. Quite ignorant in fact. So I have no comment whatsoever on whatever was in those particular 2, how the tests were run, who the drivers were, or anything else about them. But I DO know a fair bit about PARTS and how they work.

Go here. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...ml#post6393596 Standard brakes on the left, 1LE on the right; except that the stock 1LEs were better than those in at least one way, namely, they weren't cross-drilled. Pretty well scaled too, no fooling the eye, there's no magnification errors I can see. (look at the hub dia, size of the strut, etc.)

Now: YOU tell ME how the one on the left can possibly be better at stopping the car.

 

And I completely agree, the 1LE isn't a good upgrade choice in 2020, not near as good as it used to be, nor as good as the LS1 setup. Not that it's particularly inferior functionally; but given that there were a few HUNDRED 1LE setups produced, vs TENS or even HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of the LS1 style, it's not hard to figure out which one is more likely to be in stock at your local corner parts store when you discover on a Sunday afternoon that you need brake parts RIGHT NOW.

 

And to compare 1LE with LS1. I had driven a buddy's 91 1LE car at an autocross last year. It did have a 4th gen rear with LS1 brakes on it in the rear. I have a 85 with LS1 brakes all the way around and ran it at the same autocross event this year. My car was way better at braking than his was.

 

I believe he meant to say 1LE in the first sentence. Even the LS1 upgrade is getting to be out dated at this point but easy to get parts at any auto parts store.

 

You are correct: I fixed it.

 

Thanks for the Link with the picture showing the difference with the 1LE brakes.

Watching the LSX Matt Youtube video on the brake upgrades for the Trans Am, made me curious about the evolution in Third Gen brakes. In the video, he commented on how there were virtually no improvements in brake technology during Third Gen production.

Based on Motorweek reviews on Youtube I was surprised to find the following 60-0 distances:
1989 TTA (1LE brakes) 137 feet
1991 GTA 117 feet
2012 Boss 302 111 feet

I thought these numbers would be somewhat trustworthy since, at least I found this discussion about the 1989 TTA: http://www.turbotransam.com/forum/in...formance.3956/

I threw the Mustang numbers in there because I was surprised by how close the numbers were considering the 21 years difference.

It seems that there was some sort of improvement over the years.

 

As was pointed out, starting in 89, the rear brakes went from the GENUINELY CRAPPY Saginaw calipers (a modification of the front ones... totally unsuccessful AFAIAC) to PBRs which are the same, or nearly so, as through the whole 4th gen run. The 98-up got the "hat" rotor and the little drum setup for the parking brake, where the earlier ones used the piston, but other than that they're largely the same. Same rotor dia, same piston dia, same basic mounting. I think, even the same rotor thickness. (caliper "spread" or whatever)

The comment about "virtually no improvements" is right on the money, with the exception of the introduction of the PBR calipers, first on the front for the 1LEs, then on the rear for all disc brake cars starting in 89. Other than that there was ABSOLUTELY NO "evolution" WHATSOEVER. Can't comment on any improvement or "evolution" there may or may not have been in magazine articles or drivers, but THE PARTS in the Saggy system are IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY throughout the ENTIRE run, 82 - 92, except for the SAE -> metric change during 84. 60s crap, which for the 60s, was MIND BENDING for its day (speaking strictly as someone who WAS THERE), but was rapidly outclassed by further developments. Kinda like TPI was... a technological marvel for acoupla years, then after that a liability, as other mfrs rapidly caught up to it and surpassed it brutally. The 1LE brake system is the first one I'd consider even close to competitive with anything modern.

I think honestly, looking at those magazine #s, that whoever was driving the TTA, didn't know how to brake; or, the car was defective in some way. (*cough*airinthemastercylinder*cough*) Which would be typical GM quality control for those days as far as that goes, and not to be ruled out.

As far as Mustangs, my littlest stepbro had a late 80s Mustang and a like age Capri (same thing at that time, like Firebird was to Camaro) in the early 90s. I remember the Capri broke its windshield when it accidentally unexpectedly impossibly HOOKED UP one time; nobody ever figured out how THAT happened; but the chassis never was the same again. He got rid of it and never bought any more of that crap afterwards. Both of them had SCARY BAD brakes, coming from my 83 drum-brake L69 car. Brakes were no doubt one of those things that helped make the Frod products "price competitive" (wink wink nudge nudge) against our cars at the stealerships, and does to this day. The fact that they felt (and feel) like you were sitting in an empty beer can didn't help much either. I got a Mustang GT for a rental car here not too long ago, in Wyoming no less; got to open it up once or twice, although the state troopers are kinda strict about things like that there; it ran GREAT, had AMAZING power and all that, but as a car, it was acoupla bricks shy of a pallet. Like, close the door, and instead of a nice "thook" sound it went "clang (rattle rattle sqweeek rattle plink diddle diddle diddle eek)". And the brakes were pretty lame too.

 

Interesting. I'd like to see the numbers for a plain jane , nice and light, no extra heavy stuff hanging from it, 1990 Formula with rear drums. Pretty sure I've had to brake down from 60 mph in less than 100 ft before on Houston freeways. the trick is not too brake to fast so the guy behind you doesn't rear end you. 0-60 is another matter !

 

Magazines are for entertainment, not scientific fact. Consider your source.

There's no reason to do 1LE brakes now. There are better options for braking performance that cost considerably less money. Finding all the parts to do a 1LE conversion now is like a scavenger hunt. The typical vendors don't sell parts like the calipers anymore. People buying 1LE calipers and returning crap as cores has made them extinct. Most places have been closing out the pads. In a few years you probably won't be able to get any service parts for 1LE brakes at the local parts store.

The standard 10.5" single piston brakes with drums in the back aren't nearly as bad as people around here like to pretend. Maybe if you're literally racing the car, but on the street they're comparable to most cars. If well maintained they stop a thirdgen with plenty of authority. Doubly so if you don't drive like a jackass.

 

I am going to do a LS brake upgrade on my Formula next spring. LSXMATT's youtube video gave me the bug to do this on my car.