waid786

While looking for a new R4 Compressor, I found an aftermarket company making an R4 but in a Scroll design! No Pistons. I would think the Scroll type with less moving part would me more reliable. They are on eBay and Amazon.

Anyone have any experience with this?



The eBay ad says its a Scroll Type:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351947764990?rmvSB=true

Thanks

Waid

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

I looked at this last night, and was hoping someone else would ask. But since they didn't...

I'm sure this will be one of those embarassing cases of asking a question, and the answer is right in front of my in big bold print....

Where do you see that his is a scroll compressor? I don't see that verbiage anywhere in the ad? Also, as an Amazon, the sneaky little so-and-so's know I have an '88 T/A, and it is automatically telling me that neither of these will fit my car. They might fit yours, though I don't know what it is you have.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

Hey Dave
This is the one I put in my 88 last year....New AC Delco, from Rock Auto
ACDELCO 1520227 {#01134351, 1134351, 88964869} GM Original Equipment; w/ Clutch

waid786

If you search for 11169MC-KTAC on eBay you find this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Ai...JZW~XW&vxp=mtr

This ad clearly states its a Scroll. If you look at the inner Aluminum Case, it is completely different. It does not have the 4 bolts that houses the front cover.

Waid

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

OK, I see it. I only looked at the two Amazon links. Thanks.

waid786

I do find it very interesting that this company went out of the way and decided to re-engineer the R4 instead of cloning it.

Here is the back picture of the compressor. It appears that it is a small scroll housed in same case. I am sure there are no large o-ring under the black steel case which has been leak issues with the original R4.

Waid

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Are you in any way affiliated or associated with the folks making, selling, or advertising these compressors? Somewhat kidding, but it wouldn't be the first time someone created a shill acct to advertise a product on here.

It'd be interesting to know how they work compared to the R4. The R4 is the most troublesome part of thirdgen A/C systems, and the unique nature make it difficult to retrofit something better. These look to be something of a generic compressor modified to fit in the R4 hole. It's interesting but ultimately someone has to guinea pig and proclaim how well it works before the forum jumps on the bandwagon and hypes them to legendary must-have status. The price isn't too much to take a gamble.

I do wish the clutch pigtail was hard mounted like the OE. It'd have a better chance of going unnoticed that way. Some black paint and most people wouldn't know the difference...

Buy one and let us know how it works out.

waid786

LOL.

Not at all. Matter of fact, I found another company making alternative to typical Piston R4.

One is Universal Air Conditioner (UAC) and other is Global Parts Distributors (GDP). I assume they are competitors to each others. The one from GDP is available though RockAuto. UAC sells lots of stuff through Amazon and eBay.

https://uacparts.com/

http://www.globalpartsdist.com/catalog/

http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo....582356&jsn=253

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Interesting Rock Auto lists it under the 89 2.8L Firebird, but not under other thirdgens.

waid786

RockAuto also list following:

Buyer's Guide : GPD 6511351 A/C Compressor

BUICK ROADMASTER 1991-1993
CADILLAC FLEETWOOD 1993
CHEVROLET BLAZER 1993-1995
CHEVROLET C1500 PICKUP 1990-1995
CHEVROLET C1500 SUBURBAN 1992-1995
CHEVROLET C2500 PICKUP 1990-1995
CHEVROLET C2500 SUBURBAN 1992-1995
CHEVROLET C35 1993-1995
CHEVROLET C3500 PICKUP 1990-1995
CHEVROLET CAPRICE 1991-1993
CHEVROLET K1500 PICKUP 1990-1995
CHEVROLET K1500 SUBURBAN 1992-1995
CHEVROLET K2500 PICKUP 1990-1995
CHEVROLET K2500 SUBURBAN 1992-1995
CHEVROLET K3500 PICKUP 1990-1995
CHEVROLET S10 BLAZER 1992-1994
CHEVROLET S10 PICKUP 1992-1995
CHEVROLET TAHOE 1995
GMC C1500 PICKUP 1990-1995
GMC C1500 SUBURBAN 1992-1995
GMC C2500 PICKUP 1990-1995
GMC C2500 SUBURBAN 1992-1995
GMC C3500 PICKUP 1990-1995
GMC JIMMY 1992-1995
GMC K1500 PICKUP 1990-1995
GMC K1500 SUBURBAN 1992-1995
GMC K2500 PICKUP 1990-1995
GMC K2500 SUBURBAN 1992-1995
GMC K3500 1990-1995
GMC SONOMA 1992-1995
GMC YUKON 1993-1995
ISUZU TROOPER 1991
OLDSMOBILE BRAVADA 1992-1994
PONTIAC FIREBIRD 1989

BrickHead

I recently swapped AC into my 89 RS (factory non-AC) car, and while reading up on R4 compressors I was settling between one of these or a Sanden conversion. Given I could only get my hands on a UAC branded Sanden compressor anyways (parts can be more difficult to come by in Canada), I decided to guinea pig this compressor. Installed it last week and had it charged up, no issues so far, and it blows very cold. Using the stock condenser as well (quite a beat-up used one at that).

One thing to note is that the pulley is smaller in diameter than stock, and a shorter belt is probably recommended. I am using the stock-length belt in this photo, but am waiting for my shorter belt to arrive from RockAuto.

I'll have to see how it lasts, and how well it does in the heat of summer. Will keep you posted if something goes comically wrong.

Here are some pictures:

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

One of the worst things about the old stock compressors (A-6, R-4, York, etc. etc. etc.) was how much power they sucked off of the motor. None of them were particularly efficient. It took about 5 HP off the engine to produce 1 HP of cooling, it seems. Newer better ones like the Sanden are MUCH better with respect to this aspect.

Any feel for how this one is in that regard?

tom3

And might be a solution to the "moaning" R4 compressors too? I've replaced three or four with rebuilt and two different new compressors, they all make noise with the R134 refrig.

waid786

This one is a scroll design in R4 package and should be way more efficient than the old piston driven R4 and should be very quite as well.

waid786

Since this R4 is a scroll design, it should be very quite! Can you confirm ?

Where did you purchase this one from and cost?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Would be nice if the original style clutch setup would work on it. Make it look even more "stock" for the resto crowd.

BrickHead

Unfortunately, I've never actually had a charged system with an R4 compressor so I can't directly compare. I've noticed a small amount of power loss for sure, but haven't done any kind of scientific testing. I'll report back once I've gotten more used to driving with it on vs off, as it hasn't been very hot here lately to actually make use of the thing!

BrickHead

The only noise I've been able to notice is the "click" of the clutch engaging and disengaging, other than that it's silent as can be!

I bought it off of amazon.ca for 298$ Canadian (~247 USD). I'm sure you can find it cheaper in the US, the free shipping was also factored in when I bought it, as shipping from the US right now costs an arm and a leg.

BrickHead

I agree, the smaller pulley (along with the clutch connector cable) sticks out a bit, but it's much better than a Sanden in terms of visual appeal in my opinion. The Sanden's work much better I'm sure, but they look so damn out of place.

The smaller pulley diameter is a necessary evil to allow it to spin faster to make up for its small size.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I figured that was the reason. I've also seen this clutch pulley setup used.


May be an illusion but looks a bit smaller than this one

Kitttransam

Hate to hijack the thread but I just installed the gpd scroll compressor. Everything is brand new. Evap condenser is parallel flow, hoses, running the orange Ford orifice tube. Cooling is crap. My car is an 87. Original Freon capacity is 48 oz. I started with 36. Cooling didn’t seem good even in cold weather. Added the 4th can. Cooling was decent when it was 65 out but past 70 not so good. Questioning whether it needs more Freon. My low pressure looks like it should be higher. And that new condenser the tubes on the side are huge compared to original. That’s why I’m questioning the capacity. Was about 73 degrees when I took these pics.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Feel the line leaving the accumlator back to the conpressor and the line entering the evaporator leaving the orifice tube. They should be roughly equal in temperature. Charge the system until they are close to the same temperature. Has worked well on every FOT system I have charged since most of the OEM specs are no longer even close to accurate on the conversions I have done.

Kitttransam

I actually added another can. Got slightly better. Also noticed when I drove and start getting more air flow to the condenser my temp dropped 10 degrees at the vent. Sitting idling my vent temp is higher. I am getting flow through my condenser. Did the paper test it stuck to it. My pressures still seem low but wondering if it’s the scroll compressor causing it. I’m at 5 cans in the system now. I won’t go more than that. Is there a simple mod for the stock dual fans? Like fan motors from an ls1 car?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

If your fan motors are original, they may just need replaced. They do wear out and slow down. LS motors are pretty much the same (blade mounting tabs are a bit different iirc).
The LT/LS plastic shroud was designed to help pull more air because the 4thgen rad and condenser are laid over from vertical. For a lower hood line.

Kitttransam

When I got the car it had only one of the dual fans could be old motor. I sourced the second fan assembly on eBay used. I know that one is old for sure. Would the LS fan motors bolt right up? And can my stock wiring handle them?

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Except for the way the fan blade tabs mount to the flange, the LS motors are the same as your dual fan setup. Just order new motors for your car so you don't have to change the blade setups. .

Kitttransam

I realized I have a newish fan motor in my shed. Fan is off my c4 vette. Same part number four seasons. My c4 has a spal fan now. Good thing I save stuff. I’m going to swap out the primary fan and see if it’s better. I’ll order another one if I see a difference.

Kitttransam

We’ll fan motor wasn’t that old. But it’s definitely aged. Newer one mounted on fan.

RJ IROC

To relate back to the OP, I still think the scroll type is going to suffer the same leaks the radial R4 does. You still have a shaft seal, and O ring seals between the body and outer shell (the outer shell still has to seal somehow). Those were leak points on the originals, and they're still (potential) leak points on these retrofits. You can rebuild a mechanically solid R4 for less than $30, and there isn't a lot of work involved.

RJ IROC

You should be monitoring your high side if you keep adding refrigerant. You'll trip the high pressure switch, or the infamous pressure relief valve on the compressor if the head pressure gets too high.

Also, you should fill the void between your condenser and radiator. It looks like you could park a school bus between them. A lot of airflow bypasses the condenser when there is a large gap here. I sealed the gap between my condenser and radiator with some closed cell pipe insulation. That, and a properly shrouded Taurus fan granted me 40 degree vent temps on an 80 degree day. This is all with the original '85 condenser and a formerly new R4 unit. Still blowing cold.

I never understood why people weigh refrigerant on automotive A\C systems. That doesn't tell you a whole lot about what is going on; that's what your manifold gauges are for. If you want it to be even easier, just fill the system until the clutch stays engaged instead of short cycling every 10 seconds. As long as pressures look reasonable on the low and high, everything works great.

Abnormally high (high) side pressures are usually indicative of insufficient cooling across the condenser. The cooling performance will be poor, and compressors will not live long behind a system that can't remove the heat adequately. Orifice tube can be clogged as well, so that is always something to check. Again, gauges are invaluable here.

Kitttransam

I think I’ll try the pipe insulation idea. Ac does start cooling better when the secondary fan comes on. Not by much. Does make sense could be sucking air from the sides and not fully cooling the condenser.

Kitttransam

I had a sheet of rubber foam. Blocked both sides of the condenser and radiator. It’s helped some. Not like a lot. But it did help. These fans are just not strong enough period. My high pressure drops when my 2nd fan comes on so that really tells me I need better cooling for the a/c to work better.

1989karr

From what i found, the LS1 fan motors are the same design BUT they draw a higher amp. Others said it should work fine . but I run my dual fans off an aftermarket wiring though. so cannot give any testament....



I found that the motor bolts to the blades just fine, in fact it mounts perfect except it seems to bring the blades a little too close to the radiator but im not sure if that's cause I have an aftermarket radiator....


I just used a couple washers to push the fan assembly back a little.

Kitttransam

well there is 3 newer 4th gen camaros at the local yard. Problem is their v6 cars. But looking at parts on rock auto the fan motor is the same part number for the gm replacement for v8 or v6.

waid786

Not True. The black steel band around the compressor is for looks only. There is no rubber seals like the old R4. Look at the back of the compressor and the ribs. They probably took an existing scroll compressor and packaged in old R4 size. See the attached two pictures.

waid786

Here is more info.

BrickHead

Although I doubt there is any kind of seal between the body and the outer shell in this design, I will agree that rebuilding a compressor is a good option. The issue however isn’t the difficulty or cost, it’s the tools required to separate the outer casing.

I looked into this quite a bit when I was weighing my options and the two methods I found were to either use a special tool that pulls the outer casing off by tightening bolts, or to use a hydraulic press combined with a second outer casing taken off of a sacrificial scrap compressor. I’m sure there is an easier way to remove the outer casing that I simply didn’t come across, however I will say that given the cost of tools for the process, a new compressor made a lot of sense. We’ll just have to wait and see how long it lasts, but based on my experience so far I expect it to be a long time.

Jaseman32

So I’ve destroyed two of these brand new Four Seasons R4 compressors now and I don’t know why.
The first time I replaced just the compressor and the low/high hose. I flushed out everything I could, didn’t do a very good job. The first compressor ran for about 5 minutes before it blew.
So I replaced everything and flushed all the hoses. New compressor, evaporator, condenser, dryer, filter, and I flushed all the hoses and lines again. I had about 5.5 oz of PAG in it and the other .5 should have come from the R-134 cans I was filling it with. I vacuumed the system for two hours, it held for two hours.

GTG, right?

It did the same damn thing while I was charging it, 5 minutes and BOOM!

What do you think is wrong?

Kitttransam

I gave up on the scroll R4 compressor. Went with the sanden conversion and works great.

Jaseman32

What problems did you have with the R4?

Kitttransam

I bought what was a redesigned r4. The cooling capacity was not good enough.

Jaseman32

At least it didn't seize within 5 minutes on you. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong before I try again. There's no reason for these things to be seizing in 5 minutes.

1989karr

Are you putting ol into the compressors? They need I believe it is 6 ozs of PAG oil as they don't come filled from the factory.

Jaseman32

You're right, it is 6. It came with a sticker and instructions that said it had 3 oz in it. I put 1.5 oz more in the compressor and 1 oz in the evaporator orifice going to the compressor. That should have been enough to get it started while the rest of the oil came from the R-134a canisters I was using.

1989karr

Maybe youre just getting bad ones?

I usually get the NEW acdelco units ............. but they got expensive...


..... they will last longer than 5 minutes.. .but they only last maybe Id say 3-6 years each before the seals leak randomly. or something....
36-38 degree cold air one day... .HOT air the next as all the refrigerant suddenly leaked out overnight. Literally just pours out from I dunno where and I saw al lthe oil at the bottom / back of the compressor..... It wont even cycle its so low.... Threw a vacumm on it and it held vacuum for over a week straight....washed off al lthe oil and charged it up and it lasted for a coupel more years then same thing...then the front seal started to leak, then I threw some silicone where I saw the dye and left it like that for another 2 years.