Any recommendations on the WB? I don't know jack about them (except what they do)
Which work best with the EBL?

Mike

 

I've only used the one I have, so I can't really offer a comparison. I have the LC-1 and I love it.

 

I need to get a wideband.

-Tuning AE
How can I tell which AE (TPS or MAP) kicks in when the Whatsup indicates AE engagement?
I've been adding to both, but I would like fine tune it for each one.
Stab the throttle, TPS AE. I know MAP AE will engage with whatever% change in MAP, but I can't tell which one engages when. Both together?

How about leaving the PW's alone for TPS and MAP AE and just changing the Multipliers? Will raising the filter % for both MAP and TPS AE engage the AE faster?
I know my truck needs a ton of AE with the bored TB and 350HO.
Whaddya guys think?

Thanks
Mike

 

Here is what I am running with my TBI 350 Vortec setup with the ZZ4 cam.

It has a 2" bore 454 TBI unit, 125# worth of injector on each side, and an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold.

The 2" bore TBI needs a huge initial blast of AE fuel.

MAP AE
KPA----%DC
80-----6.73
75-----6.44
70-----6.05
65-----5.56
60-----5.37
55-----5.17
50-----4.98
45-----4.78
40-----4.59
35-----4.29
30-----4.00
25-----3.71
20-----3.42
15-----2.93
10-----1.46
5------0.78
0------0.00

TPS AE
%-----%DC
12.5---17.97
9.38---17.97
6.25---20.02
3.13---24.90
0.00---0.00

Attached are graphs (Courtesy of AirDeano on Fullsizechevy.com)of both a Small Block TBI and Big Block TBI flowed against TPS opening. It is easy to see how the Big Block TBI can flow a huge amount more air at lower TPS readings than the Smallblock TBI can.

 

Wow. That is a good amount on the TPS AE. 25 percent of 125 lb/hr worth of flow, correct?

 

Yes, except it is more like 40%. On a light throttle crack, off-idle it adds up to like 10 m/sec pulsewidth on the spike.

I don't know which manifold you are running, but the Performer RPM needs the added AE shot.

It blows soot like an un-turbo'd diesel when the hammer is mashed, but jumps right off the line.

Keep in mind a Double pumper holley has 2 accelerator pumps delivering 35-50cc of fuel each.

I know for a fact Dimented24x7 has nearly as much injector as myself. I also know that in cooler weather, he will nearly MAX out the AE fuel on a throttle stomp.

 

Wow. Maxxing out like 100 DC%?
I'm using the GMPP TBI vortec manifold
On a light stab around 1000 rpm, the AE is right on, jumping forward. The INT swings slightly rich, but that's cool. Guess I'll just pour it on at around 2000 rpm in both tables and watch the INT. On second thought, I wont because it isn't represented like that in the bin. hehehe
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How do you post your tables into the replies? (newbie q)
yeah, I think I'll asak my girl friend to watch my exhaust pipes for black smoke when I do this....lol

 

Fast has the same system I do, and the TPS AE is very short, and covers for any lag in the sensors and such as well as manifold filling. The MAP AE is likely what provides the bulk of the AE as that lasts for up to several seconds. With the GMPP manifold, you shouldnt need much AE once the engine is warm as its (I think) fully heated. The time when you need alot of AE is when the manifold is cold. Teh fuel easily settles out. When its hot, the gas cant wet the walls because theyre at a higher temp then the boiling point of most of the components in the fuel.

I have an air gap performer RPM vortec. Like fast said, that needs more AE then my 250 PPH injectors can provide in the winter, but barely needs any at all in the summer or after heat soaking. The table below shows the AE multiplier vs. manifold temp. You can see how much more is needed when the manifold is cold. The AE multiplier is around 4x when cold but only .5x when hot.

 

I'm pretty sure the manifold is fully heated- it's nice and warm after a few minutes. aluminum. So, in the EBL's AE tables, I'll try adding more for the TPS in the low % changes (I don't hit it that hard) and I'll beef up the MAP side of the house. I want to hook up an IAT, but I can't decide where to put it. (Birdcage style) -hey, speaking of that, in the CTS vs IAT table, how much % of CTS should I start with once I hook it up?
Thanks,
MIke

 

With the 1000 RPM AE being OK, and not enough at 2000 RPM, use the AE - RPM Multiplier % table to add more at 1800 RPM & up. Once you see the stock values in the table it'll be obvious why it drops off so quickly.

Having the slightly lean AE causing the INT to increase a little is best. If the AE is a tad rich and drives the INT down, the engine will usually sag a little as the AE runs out and the INT is also pulling fuel.

RBob.

 

Sounds good- I'll increase the % in those tables. THanks again, Rbob and Fast and all you guys!

This tuning stuff is EXTREMELY addicting. Good fun, though

One other thing that I don't understand- when I decelerate to a red light, sometime the RPM will dip to about 200 then jump back up, dip a little, then come back up. It doesn't oscillate, it just dips down when I come to a stop. I think it has something to do with my blades- I think I just have to open them a little more. (Like Rbob said) Just wondering if you guys have seen this before.- fixed it with opening the blades a TINY bit more.

Thanks again,
Mike

 

HOLY COW-
Just upped the RPM multiplier table for AE. Feels like a new truck. Lots of torque. Great advice, once again.

Mike

 

On AE-
These two tables:
AE-TPS Filter
AE-MAP Filter

THe calibration file says that a smaller value will present a greater lag, determines the duration, and affects magnitude. If I lower the filter %, will the AE be DELIVERED faster or slower? By lowering, will it lessen the pw? Will raising the Filter % for both increase response? Are these to compensate for large intakes vs small ones?
Sorry about all the questions, it's hard not to ask a bunch. eager to understand more about the EBL!!!

Mike

 

If I lower the filter %, will the AE be DELIVERED faster or slower?

No change, AE delivery time is set by the DRP time.

By lowering, will it lessen the pw?

A smaller filter coeficient will increase the PW and duration.

Will raising the Filter % for both increase response?

No.

Are these to compensate for large intakes vs small ones?

Mostly wall wetting. Which has more to do with surface area and manifold temperature.

RBob.

 

Wow this is great info. I'll makes some changes and see what happens. Thanks again guys

Mike

 

More on AE- (yeah, I know already)

So, at about 2400 rpm/40 Kpa it give the pedal a decent shove. Not going into PE, just a little more. The INT dips to 126, then leans out to about 138, then meets back up with the BLM at 128 after accelerating and stabilizing at a higher speed. (VE is good at 128/128 when not in AE) Maybe a little more MAP? I think this because it looks like TPS AE is enough, but the follow on MAP leans it out. How far off am I on this?

 

i am certainly no expert but if you hold pedal with no TPS change and climb a steep hill the car may need MAP-AE to be involked or MAP-AE involvement. on a level road and a change of TPS occurs i believe TPS-AE is the one to consider as far as tuning goes. they probably interplay to a degree. i think this was explained by a knowledgeable member a while back.


how much? drivability or seat of pants. IMHO.

I have a WB02 so I can see an initial lean spike immediately followed by two enrichment changes back-back in a log. I think the first is TPS-AE and the second is MAP-AE. then followed by PE if it hits PE threshold of 50% TPS.

if lean i get a lean pop from intake and too rich (my tune today) i get a gurgle sound.

 

How do you hook up the Zeitronix to the EBL?
I know that the input to the EBL is one of the screw-terminals. 0-5 analog, correct? I don't have one yet, just wondering how everybody else hooked theirs up. Cool

One other thing- when I first start the truck (cold or hot) it cranks and fires up, dies down to like 100 rpm, then proceeds normally. Too much crank fuel? This happens within 1 second after firing.
Thanks

Mike

 

Plug the white wire into one of the 8 A/D terminals. And ground the WB (brown terminal) to one of the ground terminals on EBL. Also hook WB power to one of the "key on" ECM power lines.

 

How about the changes in the Whatsup- obviously selecting Zeitronix as the WB, and channel for whichever ( I can't remember if they're numbered)

Mike

 

Thanks for the info. GOod stuff

Mike

 

The channel you select in Preferences is based on whichever of the A/D channels you plug the WB into. I have mine in Channel 1.

 

Cool. What do you think about the starting issue with my truck? (post 568)
Love the expert advice from you guys.
Thanks
Mike

 

In the EBL calibration file-
Option word 2, HiGrH-4th gear switch polarity (auto trans)
Must this be enabled when using an auto?
I have a 700r4

 

That option bit will affect the TCC lockup tables. When GM built 700R4's they put 1 of 2 4th gear switches in. One that is normally open (N.O.), and one that is normally closed (N.C.).

The option bit defnes which switch is in the transmission. With the TCC there are two sets of lock/unlock tables, along with two sets of MPH OK to lock thresholds. They are spit between the low gears (1-2-3) and 4th. The ECM uses the 4th gear switch to know which set of tables to use.

There are also some upshift/downshift TCC unlocks and delays that use the 4th gear info.

To figure out which polarity to use (checked or unchecked), set up the TCC tables for MPH OK to lock/unlock, and the TPS lock/unlock values. Usually the 4th or high gear MPH is greater then the low gear threshold.

Then observe when the TCC locks and unlocks under light/cruise throttle. If it uses the wrong set of tables, flip the option bit. Otherwise it's good.

It works out to be checked for N.O., and unchecked for N.C.

RBob.

 

Cool. It shifts where it should as it is. Thanks Rbob for the EBL and the support for guys like me!

Mike

 

So if I set the car for 0 on the tab then the EBL timing controls actual timing? If the car is set for 8 and I set EBL for 8 I have tab timing actually at 0 then?

 

What are you asking about? EBL always controls the timing.

 

If timing on tab is at 8btdc and the initial in the EBL is 8, does that mean I have initial timing then set at 0?

 

negative-
your actual base timing you set the engine to needs to be the same as the value in the table 'Initial SA'
they don't cancel each other out, and they don't add up, either. Just lets the ECM know how much base timing your're running

 

IT seems that as Crematoria effect(summer) is upon us, my VE tables are Now rich,(open loop) I am guessing that this means I do not have the CTS/IAT blend set correctly? (high 80s)Perhaps the quality of fuel has changed as part of the raping at the pump program? Any one else seeing similar drift? Thanks, Val

 

I have a few EBL questions. I just noticed there is an "Airflow displacement scaler". Out of the box, this is set for a 305, but I have a 350. I didn't even see this when I first set up my BIN. What impact on my BIN will changing this to 350 have?

Also, how will I know if I need to alter the MAP sensor filtering? I get a surge when I go from a high RPM to a stop quickly. All other times, there's no surge. I've been battling this for a while, there are just so many variables to the EBL it's difficult for me to track down the one that's not quite right.

 

Fast and I have MAF. Unlike some of the SD systems, the MAF flow is calculated synchronously with the cylinder intake cycles, so the fueling is always one cylinder intake cycle behind. In addtion to manifold filling, on tip in, the calculation delay can leave the next intake cycle and cylinder firing very lean, so a very short burst of TPS AE is needed. You need this as well with SD for the delays, but not quite as much due to the fact that the MAP is usually read asynchronously and this can reduce the error at lower RPMs.
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This could be due to alot of things. Does the engine almost stall each time it dips down, and then surge up?
----------
This could be due to alot of things. Does the engine almost stall each time it dips down, and then surge up?

 

Yes! That's exactly what it does. Dips so low it almost dies, then surges up. It seems to be at a 1hz frequency

 

I spent all day today redoing my VE tables, thinking about the increased heat. Leaned out a little in most areas (3-4%).
I wonder if I should give the IAT more blend in the lower flow areas?

 

The displacement scalar is used to calculate the airflow variable. Which is used for some of the closed loop tables. Such as the O2 window, proportional gains, INT update delay and so on. If you are still tuning then change the displacement. Otherwise jsut leave it. Going from a 305 to 350 CI will increase the airflow at any given point.

Shouldn't need to change the MAP filtering. For the bouncing return to idle look for a spot in the VE table that is a little lean. That will cause a surge.

Also, in the data log, check what the main items are doing: SA, O2, IAC, etc. Try to get a feel for what is causing the engine to dip so low (It sounds like it is hitting the stall saver). Adjust the TB blades so that the engine idles with 5 - 10 IAC steps.

RBob.

 

RBob- tried to email you at DynamicEFI, but your mailbox is full. Your're a busy man!!!
THanks,
Mike

-you were probably out of town this weekend.

 

It is common for the BLMs to move around some. My thought is that there are three items that contribute the most to this: fuel content/temperature, air temperature, and humidity. An increase in humidity will cause a richer AFR. There is less O2 in the air as it is displaced by water.

As the air temperature increases is becomes less dense, and has less O2 per cubic foot.

The fuel content is something that we as users don't really know what it has in it. And as the fuel temperature increases it expands and is less dense.

What I try to do is a final VE Learn with a bunch of mixed driving, for a good 45 minutes or more. This would be all at the same run time (no starting stoppping the engine), and on the same tank of fuel. Then leave it.

RBob.
----------
If the corrections were about the same across the board, you could leave it. This post should merge with my response to Val's question, which is along the same lines.

If you are running closed loop all of the time, and there are no driveability issues, I just leave it be.

RBob.

 

Yes, thanks for the heads up. I've added space.

RBob.

 

Thanks for the info, one past drift to fat land was due to a broken valve spring, am pursuing adjustments I think are due to 2 crap cells in the battery,was running a higher voltage with the old batt,was around 13.9+, now around 12.9- 13.2, what values are normal? The old stuff liked 14.2 or so, don't know about this "new " stuff. Alternator shows no leakage,but have not checked amp output.. If there is another mod to the EBL, it may be good to put a MAP based kick out on the AC , the RPM protection is cool,but it would be nice to have the compressor drop out when gettin it on under the rpm limit. Thanks, Val

 

The engine could be going to lean or rich, or there isnt quite enough throttle follower when the throttle is closed. It could even be the O2 PID settings, SA, etc. There are alot of things that can drag the idle down.

 

I'll have to play around to see what changes it.

Next question. I've had a misfire ever since I changed everything, but it only happens once, and only when I first start it in the morning. I thought it was distributor related, so I replaced it with a new unit as well as more new plugs, wires, and even a new coil. Nothing has changed it.

As I'm re-reading the EBL calibration, I noticed a SA - IAT/CTS Comp Bias SA constant and a IAT/CTS Blend Factor table. I already have the table set so that 100% of the factor is on the CTS because I don't have an IAT sensor. Is the Comp Bias supposed to be altered as well? Could this cause the misfire?

 

SA. The formula of SA determination is in these pages, if my notes are correct it is ;Main SA + (coolant SA - coolant bias SA)+( IAT/CTS SA -IAT CTS bias SA) .. I found with a higher compression engine (10.25) that the increased SA during warm up caused knock and misfire with provided bin values. I think it is limited to 1 or 2 degrees contribution now. I have also chased the surge for a couple years (7747 before EBL) and have found that in my case it is caused by the step from commanded AFR in cell 1 stepping to AFR of cell o. That is , the AFR of cell 1 is too lean for idle requirements, the best luck I have had so far has come from raising Idle TPS and MPH so that the richer cell 0 is dropped into sooner. This is open loop in my case, had the same problem in CL tho. Good luck, Val

 

What is 'some'? +-5? 10?

 

Oh my DUDE get a IAT it improve everything when I added it... plus smoothed the warm up and gas mileage went up...82 vette ebl prom 2.13tbi's and a 262 cam with all stick block... IAT is a MUST real simple to add... also get a hold of a infared temp measurment device and mount at a good place base on those readings...or mount it with some duct tape in a few trail places driving air flow can really make a difference so best to test it first unless you have cold air intake to mount in...

 

IAT is awesome. definitely a 'must do'

 

Actually, I prefer an open type MAT right in the manifold. Thats what I run in my TBIs.

 

The +-5 on the BLMs is common. As for +-10 that is a little much. However, the +-5 is with the engine at the normal operating temperature. As it warms up while in closed loop the BLM may move more then that.

RBob.

 

Yeah, I just switched mine from the air cleaner assy to the manifold. works more betta

 

Fast,

Why do you put your MAT in the manifold? What have you found to be better about that location rather than in the open air stream?