OK,

So I have a 91" FireBird with a V6 3.1.....and I hate it. Not so much that it is a firebird or that it needs work. Just that there's only so much you can do before having to do a motor swap wich in a away for me is inevatable. So I figured I would come to guys and ask what do you think about me doing a GN motor swap into my bird ? I ask because I know that they made a V6 turbo car like mine two years earlier so I'm figurin it would be easier to do a bigger badder V6 swap(saving lots of money) then to go with the SB350 and having to change out nearly the entire car(radiaor,tranny,rearend,driveshaft,ECU,suspesion,all mounts,etc....). Unless there is something I am missing now I figured I'd come here becuase well you guys would know better then I would. So really in your honest opinion what do you think ?

~BB~

 

Good luck finding a virgin GN motor

 

I don't think so!!!

You'd still have to replace the trans; you'd still need a full exhaust; and so on. The Buick V6 and your 60 degree motor don't have anything at all in common, except the cylinder count. Anything such as the rear end that wouldn't be a fitment issue but rather a power-handling issue, would have to be changed, same as if you put in a good-running V8 (not some "Goodwrench 350" or the like). Very little, if anything, about the swap would be any less labor than putting in a V8, except that all the parts will be about 30 or 40 times harder to find, and will cost 3 or 4 times as much. In fact, some of the exhaust parts are all but impossible to come up with any more, and must be custom fabbed.

Not that putting together a turbo Buick motor would be a bad idea; just that your justification for doing it is WAY off base. You are vastly underestimating the difficulty and expense of cloning a TTA.

 

And that's why I figured I would ask the question...thanks !

~BB~

 

Yup I bet you could put a 350 into your car for half the cost it would putting a GN motor in...

 

Yeah looks that way

~BB~

 

Everyone puts a 350 in. A GN won't be any cheaper, but it will be relatively different.

 

GN V6 would be a blast if you can get ahold of one.

 

Don't rank the cost of the engine by the number of cylinders! GM 350 engines are very very very plentiful and have the least expensive aftermarket performance parts.

I guess when I choose an engine I don't think in terms of 'but everybody has one', rather I think in terms of what performance do I want and how can I get there and what will it cost. When the hood is closed nobody knows what you have. All that matters is what the car can do.

 

Then a 500 hp chevette would be ideal.

 

5-600 is what I'm shootin for. I just don't wanna do it on a N/A motor. And no nitrous. With gas prices going the way they are I'm looking for power and milage. That's where a turbo comes into play. But a turbo V8 would be awsome,more money but it would be awsome.

~BB~

 

I think banks sells twin turbo 350s..bad thing is that their engine with the lowest power rating is at 850hp...real fun but seems a bit mutch for grocery getting.

 

hehehehehe
this guy is a riot!
500 to 600 street motor that get good gas mileage and a turbo thatll help the gas mileage, woooo hooo, sign me up thatll be the day

 

Heh heh,you can dream...I'm not looking to get like 30 miles to the gallon. But I do want like decent....whatever that is.

~BB~

 

Yeah if you get a smogged out, junkyard 350. To build a SBC CORRECTLY it's really not that much cheaper than doing a GN swap.

Now, doing the GN swap does have more headaches and some custom work...but it's a relatively easy swap.

 

A turbo doesn't mean bad gas mileage. Look at semi trucks. The majority have turbos, and all have gas mileage in mind when they're designed. Also, you would only need a minimal amount of boost to get those numbers out of a V8. Granted, it won't be cheap, but 600hp rarely is!

Still want me to sign you up??

 

600hp and good gas mileage is a stretch but a turbo doesn't mean bad gas mileage. Actually on the Buick 3.8 if you stay out of the boost most of the time you can clock damn good gas mileage. My buddy has a 10 second GTA with a TTA motor swapped in and he gets 20mpg(around that, give or take a bit).

 

The whole swap looks like a hassle unless you luck out and find a TTA donor. I love the idea but in the end theres no doubt in my mind you'll spend more money AND time putting a GN motor in instead of a V8. Absolutely no custom fabrication (wouldnt he have the get custom headers made for a GN motor? $$$$$$$$$$$), no silly wiring, no hard to find parts. Nothing... just all standard easily available parts that bolt right up.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but wouldnt it take just about the same fabrication/money putting a stock GN motor in as it would putting a basic SBC with a turbo? In the end you'd have a bigger motor, more easily available parts, and more potential for possibly less money?

 

I was lucky enough to find a TTA motor but a GN motor swap is not that much of a hassle. The only custom fabbing you'll have to do is for the downpipe(you can use the stock headers and crossover pipe) and the wiring harness(You can piece together or buy a new harness but that's money). No silly wiring? Who said the guy that started this thread was going carb?

To do a turbo system the right way on a SBC isn't exactly cheap either. I'm not talking about some ghetto *** hack job using junkyard turbos.

As it stands right now he has to change just about everything anyway since he's dealing with a V6 car. The field is pretty much level for both motors.

 

I can tell you pulling apart my car many times(hopefully when it's done this will be the last, engine wise) You will have what you're looking for in the 3.8 turbo moreso than any 350 dollar for dollar.

Go to www.turbobuick.com or www.turbobuicks.com and research the costs of drivetrains. You can find a drivetrain for $2500-$2800. I would most definately not use anything bought in a performance swap unless a rebuild is done.

The money for a rebuild and performance parts for a 3.8 will blow away anything you can do to a 350(nitrous may keep up, but prolly not). I am having my heads ported, new cam, J&E Forged pistons, arp lower end, arp head bolts, a 3in. downpipe, and more for a lot less than what you'll spend on a V8.

These engines are plentiful, and with the right person rebuilding it will go into the 10's all day long. I have every confidence in my builder, If you want PM me and I'll give you specifics. Although it is a heartache when a 3.8 blows there is nothing and I mean nothing like it when you get planted in your seat at 20psi. Imagine a donkey kicking you in the chest

You could do the turbo 350, but will prolly spend more money than the 3.8 swap. Yeah you have the ability to make more power with the 350 turbo, but it'll cost you in valvetrain components alone what the 3.8 will do with stock rockers, lifters, and cam. Guys have gone low low 11's on the stock cam and it's 196* or so.

HTH!

FLY My ride is almost done!!!!!!

 

sweeeet, wish I could say the same about mine

 

yes sign me up, i have that on my things to do in life (turbo v8) that will be a fun thing to mess with

 

That would be me - 650hp, mid 10 second timeslips, and about 20mpg in a car thats driven everywhere

Looking for a little more this year(9.90-10.0)and still a streetcar

Tony when am I gonna see that harness??? After what you've been through I figure you'd be talking him into the V8. It's ok though you'll be back together and whoopin on them V8's soon enough

Steve

 

Check your PM's.

 

A great deal of the money and difficulty in a creat-your-own turbo isn't in "buying parts"; it's the fact that absolutely none of it is stuff that's off-the-shelf, guaranteed to fit, etc. You'll end up making all sorts of things, things you can't even imagine you'll need. You'll have bizarre things happen like your intake flexible ducting popping off halfway down the track and heat buildup in places under the hood. You'll go nuts tuning it, swapping this turbo and that wastegate and some other downpipe and so forth, trying to tune it to where it doesn't either have a 5-second turbo lag at the line, or run out of juice at the top end, or fall apart unexpectedly somehow, or blow up, or whatever.

That's the beauty of the Buick turbo.... it's not that it's a Buick motor; it's not that it's a 6-cyl; the great thing is, somebody else already did all of that R&D and tuning for you, and you get it all at far below their cost!!! No matter how much you end up having to spend on those Buick parts, they're still cheaper than piecing it together and tuning and matching it all from scratch. Duplicating all of that on your own is mighty tough for a first-timer. And that's where all the money goes, and the disappointment comes from; all of that knowledge that the Buick guys built into their system, that they learned in countless hours of dyno time and many years of mass-production.

I'd suggest, if you've never done a swap or built a motor before, stick to something a little simpler than a turbo V8. Learn to crawl before you tackle flying a fighter jet.

 

if you want a turbo hey thats your thing if it were me id swap a v8 into the thing and be done with it its not that hard unless you have emmisions to deal with in your area .....anyway id say your not gonna get 5-600 hp out of a v6 turbo and still get mileage of anysorts to speak of but the v8 once in the car can take all sorts of add ons that will improve the hp but remember when there is hp there is a loss in mileage on anything ....
unless you are driving a nitros bomb that if you use the nitros all the time your just gonna end up tuning and replacing parts all the time anyway and most states its illeagle to drive with a bottle in the trunk thats open ........great for the track but not for the street

 

Yes you can and will. Of course if you romp on it all the time the mileage goes down, but it does with a V8 too.

 

You can and will. Obviously the more you romp on it the more the mileage goes down just like a V8.

 

Apparently you missed my previous post, so I'll recap:

I think 20 mpg is pretty good considering I dont have an overdrive tranny. I know guys running the 200-4R and at my level of hp and performance are getting 25+ mpg.

Remember, it's still a little 3.8L V6 untill the turbo starts going

Steve

 

the buick motor is far from the easy route to performance. they do make a lot of power, and get good mialage if you baby it, but it will take some patience and a lot of reasearch to get there. if it was me, i would put a v8 in my f-car.

true, but if you have the car setup correctly, there is hardly any lag. when i stomp on it going ~35mph or less, it spools up almost instantly and begins roasting the tires. another great thing about the turbo v6 is the torque.

the gas mialage of the v6 really isnt all that amazing if you drive it like we do. it still takes in a lot of ffuel when its under boost.

-jeff

 

A 350 will be cheaper all around then a V6 GN motor swap is expensive, trust me. But don't be lookin to get good gas mileage when you want 500hp at the flywheel.

And everything for the turbo V6 swap is expensive cause everything is rare. Try paying 650 bucks for a wiring harness for any other car. lol.

 

what does it cost to get 650 hp from a 6 cyl turbo???

 

hey i think if i were to put turbo on an engine it would be a v-8 ..but thats just me...ive been doin some searchin and heres a couple pics i found to build a v-8 twin turbo instead of usin a 6 cyl..

 

another pic

 

last one ...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...476220605&rd=1
here is where i found em at..these are made specifically for a third gen camaro/firebird

 

Those are sweet!

And its not to hard to get 650hp out of the buick V6. Just have to have the right parts and turbo for the job.

 

i understand that you need the right parts for the job but how much $$$$ does it take to get 650hp out of a v-6???

 

Not cheap...then again it wouldn't be cheap with a SBC either.

 

im just sayin if your gonna put a turbo on an engine i would rather do it to a v8 than a v6 both are gonna cost you an arm and a leg and your gonna get more outta the v8 than the v6 for the money spent ..

 

But you're also doing a lot more custom work, a lot more R&D when turbo'ing a V8...until there is a all in one kit out there it's gonna take some work. At least with the V6 it's already done for you.

 

here ya go man check this out ...http://www.twistdisc.com/id14.html
if you do some searchin on the web you can find a kit for anything ....lol..

 

heres a pic of one of the kits they make

 

Then do a SBC :shrug:

 

then why do you insist on sayin that a v6 is the only thing you can put in a third gen and put a turbo on without doin all kinds of fabrication ...im just tryin to let everyone know that there are kits out there to do a v8 the same way ...not tryin to be a smartass or nothing just tryin to spread the word that if you want a turbo that the v6 isnt the only option you got unless you fabricate everything..

"shrug"

 

Ok, where did I say the buick V6 was the ONLY way to turbo a thirdgen? I didn't. I said it was probably the easiest since everything was done from the factory. There is still A LOT more to do on a SBC than just that kit you posted

I never stated that the V6 was the end all be all to turbo'ing and performance....it's just easier since it's done from the factory.

Also I thought you started the thread orginally which is why I said just turbo a SBC. I was mistaken there.

That kit STARTS at 3K. That's not exactly cheap. They claim 450 horsepower which is good but for 3K into a GN motor you could probably out perform that.

 

these cars were made for v6 and v8s and the differnce between twin turbo or single turbo on them is nothing but if you turbo a v6 it will get smoked by a v8 turbo ....

and if your building an engine to make power then your always better off to build a v8 ...besides twin turbo is twin turbo wheather its on a v6 or a v8 there both gonna cost a bunch of money

 

OOOOOK, so because a V8 has a turbo it's automatically going to beat a V6 turbo? Hardly dude...there are too many variables to just throw that out there.

Also, 2 turbos aren't always better than one.

 

thats one way of lookin at it or you could look at it like your spectrum that a v6 with turbo is gonna automatically beat a v8 with turbo?? dont think so either man there are too many variables to consider your correct and im just sayin if you put a v6 turbo and a v8 turbo and drop the same amount of change on both your gonna get whooped if your in a v6 turbo think about it cmon....

 

I think the part you are failing to grasp is the Buick turbo V6 is probrobly the easiest way to turbo a thirdgen based on the fact that the factory built cars with that motor so the swap has been scienced out.

For turbo V8 you'd need that $3,000+ kit along with a $2000+ FAST/DFI system just to start(unless of course you are able to burn your own chips, but at this level of cost I'd rather not risk my motor). Then your talking about building the motor which depending on how far you want to go can cost quite a bit. Dont forget an intercooler, as you'll be severly limited without one.

To get 650+hp out of the V6 I had the motor rebuilt using a stock block, crank, and rods with JE pistons. Installed a small 214/210 cam. Had the stock TTA heads mildly ported and had the stock intake port matched to the heads. I used the stock TTA headers to run the exhaust to a TE64-1 turbo and a 3" TTA replacement downpipe. The air is cooled by a TTA spec CAS V2 intercooler then into a 65mm throttle body and precision plenum. The motor is wired by a stock TTA harness(which is a direct plug and play into the stock V8 vehicle wiring)and the fuel management is done by a stock GN/T-Type/TTA ECM with a pair of chips($130 for two, one for racegas and one for pumpgas).

Notice the amount of stock parts, thats why it's a bit easier - it's already been turbocharged. Your not installing a turbo kit, rather your swapping an already turbocharged motor.

HTH,
Steve

 

Ughhh, you're really starting to **** me off because you're putting words in my mouth.

Where did I ever say that a V6 automatically beats a V8? Nowhere did I say that. Also, say you have a SBC and a buick 3.8 and you have 2 grand for mods...you can't touch a turbo kit for 2K for a SBC...

Pound for pound would a turbo V8 produce more power? Sure. BUT at what cost? That's the question. That's why I say that for the $$$ the V6 could be a little more cost effective due to the fact that the turbo **** is already done from the factory(on top of having the correct ECM and chip stuff) which is pretty much the point I was trying to make from the very beginning.