I have an '83 Z-28 with the Crossfire inj. and auto. The car is all origanal except for the IROC-Z decals on the doors, IROC hood and IROC wheels. The body and interior are in great shape but the motor knocks like crazy. I was planning on dropping in a built 350 with a carb. Lots of aftermarket and far from stock. My question is this: Would the car be more valueble if I restored it to origanal condition, and as few of these crossfire cars are left (compared to TPI IROC's and such) would I be messing up by changing an otherwise decent and rare-ish car?

 

before anyone talks you out of it, there very few crossfires and they do get rarer and rarer. Despite what some say, they aren't that hard to work on and can be modified to upgrade for performance. The people that say they are hard to work on just don't know how. There is information out there to help you diagnose and repair and mod for performance. I have kept mine and glad. It looks way cool under the hood at a car show. Nothing else like it!!

Try this link before you decide: http://www.crossfire.homeip.net/cftest/startdefault.asp

 

That kind of depends on what you want....

"Rare" does not automatically equate to "valuable" or "desirable", or even "worthwhile". Speaking strictly for myself, when those cars were brand-new, I was in the market for a new car, and I went and drove one. I absolutely HATED it. I though it was the STUPIDEST thing I had ever driven. To me, it seemed to drive just like the Citations and Celebritys with 4-cyls that I always seemed to get stuck with as rent-a-mules on business trips, except, twice as much of it. Which, if you think about it, 2 151s would make a 301, just about the same size as a 305; and, 2 TBs off of 151s, should therefore be about right for a 305 as well. I think maybe that's exactly what they are, becuase that's exactly what they act like. But that's just me.

If you're concerned about it, take that motor out, and put it in storage somewhere, intact and unmolested; and that way, if it ever DOES become "desirable" to you or to anyone else, it'll all be right there in one piece. Put in whatever you like, for using the car, in the meantime.

And PLEASE, get the IROC stickers off of it. THAT is a sin for sure. I think there's a special level reserved down there for that offense. The hood and wheels, sure, leave those, especially the wheels (since decent 15" performance tires that will hold a car that heavy are basically not made any more, and the OE wheels were only 7" anyway); but not the stickers. Chevrolet didn't have the IROC contract that year. IROC ran Porsches if memory serves. www.irocracing.com Chevy didn't buy the rights to their name until 1985, and that contract ran out 12/31/89. Although now it hardly matters, because it looks like they're folding.

 

Right. If you're worried about originality then bag up all special parts and store them securely. Do whatever you want and then put it back when you sell it.

 

Like I said, many will try to talk you out of crossfire. It is basically a TBI engine, not much different than the later 305 TBI motors. Every induction has its limitations. Carbs can be quite fickle and difficult, but many swear by them because that is what they are familiar with. TPI is no magic bullet because you are basically throwing dry air to mix with wet fuel at the head to mix. TBI can also have its limitations as a "wet" system, but the 80s and early 90s 305 TBIs ran pretty stout from the factory.

If the crossfire is so bad, how come it had 15-25 more horsepower than the stock LG4 carb motor in 1982 and 1983?

The crossfire is much more rare than the carb motors of that era, and it you compare it to injections systems throughout history, yes, the are extremely rare. And if these third gens ever do become valuable as a collector, you can bet the crossfire will be the most collectable (along with the L69 option) because of the low number built. Add to that how many have been ripped off and converted to carb units, and it becomes even more rare.

Now, you can go ahead and take the motor out and put it aside to preserve the originality, but what about the ecm, dual IAC connectors, map sensor, knock sensor, etc. that will have to be changed to go to a carb or single TBI? It means you would have to remove the ECM and sensors and wiring harness, or hack it up to make something else work? A lot is involved to do so and then put it back together to make it "valuable".

A comparison in my mind is the 57 fuelie Corvette. No one liked it when it was new, mechanics didn't know how to use it, people spent decades bashing it, but look at how much more it is worth than a carb version? Not to compare crossfire to '57 fuel injection, as obviously the number of '57 fuelies made was much lower and the Corvette is more collectable, but you get an idea of a comparison.

Now, from a performance standpoint there are a few options you could go and produce some decent horsepower while keeping the crossfire. Rebuild the 305 with a decent cam, better flowing heads, roller rockers, headers, a gasket match ported intake and bored throttle bodies, or put all of that on top of a built 350.

Everything will bolt right up and you would only have to replace the knock sensor and sensor module at most. Everything else will bolt right up. The same crossfire setup was used on the 1982 and 1984 350 Corvettes. The only difference was the injector size, and those will fit in the 305 TBIs without modification. Plug and play as they say.

If you go to the crossfire forum you will see evidence of the crossfire setups hitting the low 13 quarter mile. You can do this and remain mostly stock on the outside.

Try the forum, you will be amazed if crossfire is really something you would consider.

If crossfire is out of the question, then yes, you could probably build more power with a 350 or a stroker. There are many guys on the crossfire forum running 383 strokers with an aftermarket x-ram intake that allows you to use all of your crossfire equipment except for the intake. Some of those guys are running low 12s in the quarter.

You have options. Don't decide until you play around on the crossfire site. You won't be dissappointed and at least if you make the change and scrap the crossfire, you will be making it with all the info you need to not second guess yourself.

 

I just want to say that I am not bashing crossfire injection. I like it fine. If I had it, I would keep it and put another engine underneath it; that's what I meant.

Put a butt kicking engine and ECM in and store the numbers matching original stuff if you think you're gonna take your car to the Barrett-Jackson auction.

 

Sorry Kris, didn't mean to make it sound personal. I didn't take your comments as bashing and I didn't mean for my response to sound that way. All good. Opinions are what make forums awesome.

Your solution to pull out and set aside is a great choice except for all of the ECM, wiring harness, sensors, fuel pump, fuel pump relay, transmission TV cable, etc. changes that would have to be done to go carb or TPI. Then to switch it all back for Barret Jackson original crossfire would be more work.

I was suggesting kind of a hybrid of Kris's idea. Swap in a 350 lower unit as there is no replacement for displacement, and hop up your original crossfire induction. It will bolt right up. You would definitely have a very well behaved, street friendly, nice running third gen. You won't be running 12s, but you will definitely be able to hang.

The opportunity to leave it stock in appearance, save the numbers matching block for a later date, have a good running third gen, and pop the hood and be to show and explain the crossfire piece of history is a great thing.

I have done the same with my 83 Recaro Trans Am. Believe me, the most looks, compliments and discussions I get come trom that crazy air cleaner and that wild cross ram type induction. That and the look of my co-worker that spent gobs of money on a stage II supercharged Cobalt SS (or whatever the hell the name of that supercharger is) as I beat him by nearly a few car lengths to the next light after work!!!! Priceless!! Ha ha ha!

 

I'll probably end up using the crossfire on a healthy 350. Factory apearing is what I'm after right now. Only thing that would give it away would be the drivers side dipstick. If the car is worth perserving, I feel that I should do so.

Sofakingdom is right, the IROC stickers have to go. That's just wrong.

 

N1ffer pointed out everything I would say including checking out the Crossfire Forum.There are those running in the high 12's with CFI on 350/383.I've ported my '83's intake base and there's a difference you can definitly feel.Next is replacing the exhaust which the LU5 had to share with the LG4.But I'm going with L69/L98 exhaust manifolds/y-pipe because I don't want to deal with headers.And you can upgrade the ECM without having to cut the harness and it's unseen(check the ECM board here).
As stated keep everything it would take to return her back to stock if you ever wanted to show her as such.I'm doing the same with mine.Sofakingdom makes a good point with the 15" wheels.Only problem I had was finding a set of 16" wheels with gold accents(everywhere you find grey accent ones).

 

A good resto-mod on your cross-fire car will be worth much more today than having the stock cross-fire.
Waiting for the day when the reverse would be true, well, I wouldn't count my retirement on it.

Two simple approaches . . .
- mod her and keep the stock parts (as mentioned)
- keep her original and buy another 3rd gen to mod (a good chassis to drop a hi-po drivetrain into won't come any cheaper than they are right now)

Good luck.

PS; Just a note about the '57 Corvette FI vs '83 Camaro CFI analogy. Yes they were both Chevy's with fuel injection, but little else compares as to future collector value.
- They made over 19,500 '83 Z28 CFI's! That's a huge number as far as collector value goes. Only 1,040 '57 Corvette fuelies were made.
- The cost of a '83 Z28 was typically around $10,336 and the cost of the CFI option only $450. About 4% of the cost of the car. A '57 base Corvette was not cheap by 1957 standards at $3200 and the FI option was a huge $500 option. That's over 15% of the car's value! That also makes it rare as many buyers then opted for the 283 2-4bbl option at only $180 instead (even though it was only 13hp less than the fuelie). Also interesting when comparing '57 options, the power convertible top was only $140.
- The '57 Corvette fuelie was also extremely cutting edge as very few other manufacturers offered FI (some not until almost 20 years later). And those that did, put them in very exotic and much more expensive cars. There was little cutting edge about the '83 CFI (but it was unique) and was soon dropped. FI was also about to become very common place.

I would say do exactly what you want to do too your ride. The most important thing is to have fun.

 

This is what I meant about storing the ECM. The 82/83 is very inferior as ECMs go. You can get a TPI ECM from 90-92 with speed density and run crossfire off of that. You use all of the same sensors and you have the ability to tune it far beyond what your factory ECM will allow.

 

I did not know that I could run a TPI ECM on crossfire. Do you have to re-pin the connector? If that will hook up than Im not worried about a thing as far as the electronics go. I can get chips for the TPI ECM that will operate the combo that i am going to go with (the thought of burning chips scares the heck out of me!).

 

IROCTOPLESS said thet the most important thing to do is have fun. I cant forget that. Its the whole reason we drive these cars: To make them go faster and look better. I just havent decided completely on how I want to acheive that I guess.

 

You would have to get an adapator from your current ecm to a newer version ecm and/or do a slight cut back of the ecm housing. There are companies that make the adaptors and install instructions. There is also a lot of info on the crossfire forum about this mod. A lot of the guys over there are using the 7747 ecm out of a 1987 454 TBI trucks.

 

FWIW, If it were mine, I'd get a nice new ZZ4 short block and bolt all the other original stuff to it (after cleaning and dressing of course).

 

I am not sure how difficult it would be to convert a TPI harness to run a CFI car, but I do know that the TPI cars all used Batch fire, they would fire each batch of 4 injectors twice per engine revolution IIRC. Since the CFI cars had 2 injectors, and there are 2 batches on a TPI setup, I would not know why it would be that difficult to achieve. You would need to get a MAF if you went that route OR a MAP sensor for the later computers, All the MAP does is hook into a strategic Vacuum line and takes readings from the intake to determine the Absolute pressure in the intake to calibrate for the amount of fuel to dump in.

I have never done it but I would bet you could do it...

As for the ZZ4 short block I have nver been that impressed with the specs on that engine... I dunno its just me.

John

 

For the ECM part of a conversion it's easier to stay with a TBI based one.Read thru the ECM tuning board here for more info.But as n1ffer mentioned the most popular ECM swap is from the '6026 that your '83 has now(used in '83 CFI F-Body and '84 Vette CFI/auto)to the '7747Check out this site for cross reference
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/c3xref.html
http://www.dynamicefi.com
http://www.x-ram.com (alternative to the factory manifold but technically not a crossram)
http://misterbill.homeip.net/abouttham.asp
http://www.crossfireinjection.net/index.html (great people for CFI info - member of the Crossfire Forum)
http://www.turbocity.com (they also do TB rebuilding)
http://www.technovelocity.com/chevyh...rt_polish.html (tips on porting the CFI base - I've done similar and it's very neccessary)

As Iroctopless mentioned in the end it's what you want to do with her.The other uniue thing is the look of the '82-'84.They are getting fewer as most like the smoother look of the '85 up and swap out the nose/tail and GFX.Hope these help.

 

Today I picked up a T-5 and a disk brake axel with posi and 3.73 gears. I cant resist puting all that in the car. I'll just keep all the numbers matching stuff in storage and build a really fun car for the time being. Crossfire will stay on it cause of the neat look. The car will end up like a cross between the LU5 and L69 cars (which is something chevy should've done in 83)

 

As stated before she's for you to enjoy.That's a great find in the axle as 3.23 was the deepest gear you could get with a LU5/700R4 combo in '83(this is in mine).
You're right about what Chevy should have done with the LU5's exhaust.Using the LG4's restrictive manifolds/yipe etc really hurt HP numbers(but then the CFI base restricted top end breathing).If you look at the L69 and LU5 numbers they are very close(published numbers for L69 are actually at a higher RPM).And the cam specs are very close.

By the way what color combo is she?And do you have any pictures to post?

 

The car's blue with black cloth interior. I haven't figured out how to post pix but when I do I'll set up a "my garage" for it.

 

Set up "my garage" now and have pix.