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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
I am finally starting my ls swap into my 87 firebird. Or I am finally getting seriously involved in it. Today I started the fitment of the clutch pedal assembly. I am swapping from an auto to a manual t56. Obviously the question always comes up which pedals to use. Use the 3rd gen or the 4th gen? Look at all the pics and decided for yourself which ones you will use.
First up is a side by side comparison of the two different sets. 4th gen on the left.
Last edited by FirehawkSS; 04-08-2009 at 10:18 PM.
4th gen set is on the left and 3rd gen is on the right. Ill start with the most noticeable difference in the two sets. The 4th gen set contains one bracket for all three pedals. The 3rd gen set breaks up the gas pedal from the other two.
Next is the sturdiness of the pedal sets. The 4th gen set is beefier because everything is welded to everything else. The metal is thick enough and there is very little flex. The 3rd gen set on the other hand needs additional support brackets. The pedal set is still sturdy but can be bent and contorted more than the 4th gen set. These additional support brackets also position the hole location for the clutch master cylinder.
The 4th gen set contains a "helper" spring for the clutch pedal. The 3rd gen set does not.
4th gen set contains a pedal stop for the clutch pedal. The 3rd gen set does not.
Also the connectors and switches seem more straight forward and sturdy on the 4th gen set.
Last edited by FirehawkSS; 04-09-2009 at 05:37 PM.
So how do the holes line up when installed in the 87? I'll start with the 3rd gen set. Four bolts in the rear bolt to the brake booster. One bolt goes thru the top of the bracket into a stock threaded location. The clutch master cylinder is position by the support brackets that trail on either side of the brake/clutch pedal bracket. The gas pedal is bolted by two bolts in the stock locations.
Clutch master cylinder not yet installed in this photo but the hole locations are shown.
How do the holes line up with the 4th gen set? Actually they line up very well. I have heard of people bending the pedal set to get it to fit. My set lined up almost perfectly. The 4th gen set uses the same four bolts in the rear of the bracket and one thru the top of the bracket. Two of the holes on the top of the bracket must be opened up a small amount. The hole on the left has been reworked while the one on the right is untouched in the below pic. And only on the top two holes must they be opened up.
The thru bolt on the top of the bracket however does not line up on the 4th gen set.
The clutch master holes actually line up perfectly with the stock locations. This is taking into consideration the padding in between the pedal bracket and the firewall. The distance of the padding is 3/8". You can actually see the holes in the padding where the clutch master will go. This is the stock padding and has not been cut yet.
The gas pedal bracket lines up well too but only uses one of the stock studs. It should still be very sturdy when bolted to one stud because the bracket is one piece unlike the 3rd gen set. The distance between the gas pedal bracket and the firewall is 5/8" without the padding. With the padding there is an additional 1/4" of space. Total distance is 5/8".
At this time I have not bent the brackets to fit flush against the firewall. No bending is necessary if using the padding. Im sure the gas pedal portion would become flush to the firewall if it was torqued down. I was just doing a dry run and test fit no bending or mods yet. The four bolts connecting the brake booster are flush with the firewall. The top thru bolt is also flush with the top of the firewall but does not line up with the stock threaded location.
Last edited by FirehawkSS; 04-08-2009 at 10:58 PM.
So what is the measurement and distances of the pedals. Strangely enough the two pedal sets are exactly the same give or take a 1/4" here and there. The two pics below show the distance from the driver side kick panel to the start of the clutch pedal. The other pic shows the distance between each pedal to the one next to it. Like stated before they are almost exactly the same.
Cool thread. The spring on the fourth gen set is not a "return" spring its a helper spring that helps hold the pedal to the floor when the clutch is fully depressed to take some of the load of your leg. It actually hinders release a little but the pressure plate has far more return power than the helper spring has holding power so it releases. Just push the pedal down when there is no master attached and you'll instantly see what I mean. The helper spring holds the pedal down you have to pull it back up manually.
For all out performance ditch it IMO. I dont run one and my leg doesn't tire out.
Here's my take on the pedals. I know Ive posted this info somewhere...but Im bored so Ill babble a bit
Since Ive run both types of pedals, I can somewhat attest to the pro/cons.
First the 4th gen set. Yes it will pretty much bolt in. I had to really egg the upper hole out to get the bolt in...which was a pain. It might look like the master cylinder support bracket lines up now, but once you put it against the metal, you'll find that it wont line up real great. You will end up bending it to make it match up. Also, go ahead and grab that bracket and twist. Its not very strong. I could watch my firewall deflect when pushing the pedal down. You'll hardly notice not having that spring. My pedal feels better without it actually.
The thirdgen set. It bolts up 100%. No hassles. 4th gen booster, 3rd gen booster...doesnt matter. I sort of like having a separate gas pedal. Not sure why...just less clutter from bracketry I guess. I like the supports for the master cylinder on the 3rd gen set MUCH better. Those things are beef. They are adjustable, so you can get the fit perfect. And once you bolt them on, they dont allow anywhere near the flex in the firewall like the 4th gen bracket does. The 4th gen firewall seems to have some creases and contours that stiffen it up a bit more.
The downside to the 3rd gen set is the little nub that the pedal arm mounts to. It is too big for the 4th gen master cylinder rod end. You have to drill the bushing out...or be creative. My masters were adjustable, with spherical rod ends. So drilling them out was out of the question.
My ideal pedal set up? And what Im running now... Thirdgen pedal set. Knock out the peg for the clutch pedal, and weld in a peg from a 4th gen set. They bolt in perfect. Switches are perfect. If you are using an adjustable master, the floor is your stop...although I do sorta wish it had a metal stop.
3rd gen on the left, 4th gen on the right.
4th gen peg in the thirdgen pedal.
Just my opinion of course And my set up requires basically ruining a 4th gen clutch pedal. Im sure you could probably substitute something into the 3rd gen pedal that would function like the 4th gen peg...but I had all the parts so I went with what I knew would work. So far...its been the best out of the two other combinations I tried.
J.
Haha..just checked the teamthirdgen site... Looks like I posted the same pictures that are on there. Forgot some of my pics made it over there.
Last edited by ghettocruiser; 04-09-2009 at 01:12 PM.
Here are the switches and their part numbers. I am not sure which switch is which.
On the fourth gen switches I believe the one with blue cover is brake light switch. The other switch that looks similar is the clutch anticipate switch. The smaller white switch is cruise control release. The black switch is neutral safety switch.
On the third gen set i belive the one with the two connectors and rod is the clutch neutral safety switch and clutch anticipate switch. The one with the black cover is stop lamp. The other white switch is cruise control release.
I am not 100% sure on this. Help me out guys and I will edit the post. Check this thread for possible explanation.
For the 4th gen pedals, didn't you have to cut the gas pedal bracket off? I cut it off since others had done the same.
No i haven't cut it off. You can install it attached to the main bracket however it will only line up with one of the studs from the original location.
The bottom two pics...the long switch with the yellow and purple wires...is the clutch safety switch on the older cars. I dont know when for sure they used it, but Im pretty sure it was from 82-86. Then in 87 they used the style that they used up through 2002. The little black one.
Anyway...I make the year assumption, because my 86 Auto car had the plug for the older style switch. And my 87 had the newer plug. I ended up just swapping the plugs, and using the newer switch. Dont know the part number for it...but thats what it is. Anytime you see those thick yellow and purple wires, its for the neutral safety/clutch safety switch.
Took all the padding out and test fit the 4th gen pedals again. I'm not having any problems with the 4th gen set. They actually fit completely flush with the firewall. The gas pedal is still about an 1/8" from the firewall without bending or tightening the nut down. I'm not sure what the difference is between cars or years but the 4th gen fit great on my 87 for some odd reason. The black marks behind the bracket are marked from where the holes in the padding were located. They are actually very close.
On a related note, is anyone able to say for sure whether the 'backup light switch' and the 'neutral safety switch' are the same?? (This is for a T-56, not the auto.)This Summit page leads me to believe that they could be...
^^^^ My understanding is that the clutch/backup lamp switch is for automatic cars since it is located at the auto shift lever.
The t56 uses two separate switches. One on the t56 case itself which is the backup lamp switch. It is engaged when the transmission is put into reverse.
The neutral safety switch is the one located on the clutch pedal bracket. It is engaged when the clutch pedal is pressed in.
My guess is that summit is just using the terms interchangeably. The link from summits site is the one that goes into the t56 case. It is only a backup light switch.
Back up switch on the trans (t56) and the neutral safety switch...or clutch safety switch in the case of a manual trans, is located on the pedals. 87-02 use the same switch. 82-86 uses the one in the pics above. As far as I know.
Also...FirehawkSS...I gotta give you the award for the cleanest master cylinder hole. But depending on the size of it, you might need to enlarge it into an oval. Because the master cylinder goes through at an angle. Its hard to tell....you might be ok. Most of us use a hole saw at an angle to get the oval. Your way was pretty creative and looks like it made a great hole though!! And you may have already mounted your master cylinder...so if you did just ignore my oval advice
Also...FirehawkSS...I gotta give you the award for the cleanest master cylinder hole. But depending on the size of it, you might need to enlarge it into an oval. Because the master cylinder goes through at an angle. Its hard to tell....you might be ok. Most of us use a hole saw at an angle to get the oval. Your way was pretty creative and looks like it made a great hole though!! And you may have already mounted your master cylinder...so if you did just ignore my oval advice
J.
Yea i got creative out of necessity. I needed a 1.75" hole to fit the master cylinder but I only had a 1.5" hole saw. I didn't see the need to buy a hole saw that I would only use one time. So i figured i would try it. The socket I pulled through was a 1.75" o.d. socket so it worked out perfect. Plus it will give the surrounding area a little extra strength.
I only posted it because I thought someone might be able to use this concept somewhere else on their car. Glad you could tell what I was doing!
Handy little set. I didn't use it for the master cylinder (didn't have it yet), used a die grinder with carbide bit to elongate the existing hole. But, did use it to route the clutch hydraulic line through the passenger compartment (to keep it away from the exhaust), and will be using it to mount the PCM in the passenger compartment (largest punch is just large enough for the PCM connectors).
But, did use it to route the clutch hydraulic line through the passenger compartment (to keep it away from the exhaust)...
Glad to hear some other guys doing this I know I dont regret it!! Adds alittle more to the install, but my line stays cool and comfy.
firehawk...def understand not wanting to buy one of those stupid hole saws. Im not a fan of those things. I ended up using the same hole saw to make the opening for my PCM wiring though...so I guess it worked out.
Ive used that two socket method for punching before. But your's came out really nice.
Man there is SO MUCH good info on this board!!!! Put all of our ideas and set ups into a big thick book and it'd sell right up there with the other great LS swap books...easily.
Man there is SO MUCH good info on this board!!!! Put all of our ideas and set ups into a big thick book and it'd sell right up there with the other great LS swap books...easily.
To which you have contributed, I might add.
V8Rumble put me on to that punch kit. Since Harbor Freight is 2 blocks away from the house. . .
Took all the padding out and test fit the 4th gen pedals again. I'm not having any problems with the 4th gen set. They actually fit completely flush with the firewall. The gas pedal is still about an 1/8" from the firewall without bending or tightening the nut down. I'm not sure what the difference is between cars or years but the 4th gen fit great on my 87 for some odd reason. The black marks behind the bracket are marked from where the holes in the padding were located. They are actually very close.
Strange, When I went to mount the 4th gen pedals in my 83 Camaro, Going from an auto to a T56 I thought for sure I was going to have to drill the hole. There was a gob of seam sealer from the factory, picked it off and there was a metal plug installed in the master hole, popped it out and its the perfect size and in the perfect position for the master.... strange because my car is a factory auto. I wonder why the 83 would have the hole pre drilled and the 87 would not?
I'm not sure how the facroty manual clutch linkage works on earlier 3rd gens since mine was an auto, but does it seem strange the hole for the manual linkage would be the same shape and size as the hole for hydraulic linkage of later years? if my 83 was a factory manual it would have used the manual "z bar" linkage right? I wish I would have taken a pic of the plug before I removed it, but I was too excited when I saw it lol. I just thought it was way to damn cool that I didnt have to drill that hole.
Havent updated in awhile now. I decided to go with the 4th gen pedals. Everything fit well so I took the plunge. I welded and redrilled the bracket that attaches the pedals to the top of the firewall. You can see where I had to redrill the hole to line up with the 3rd gen firewall. I also cut off the side of the bracket, bent it, flipped it and rewelded it back together. This gave me enough clearance for the bolt.
I ground off the original 3rd gen pedal studs that were on the firewall. I rewelded some studs that matched the layout of the 4th gen pedals. Once i torqued everything down the gas pedal fit snugly with no spaces behind the bracket. Nothing was bent or tweaked on the main pedal bracket assembly. The gm design engineers must have transferred some dimensions from the 3rd gen firewall to the 4th gens. Everything fit too smoothly. I seem to be the exception to the rule however because others have had a difficult time. Below is the final installation of the 4th gen pedals.
Hmm....I see one of the thirdgen pedal support brackets. Good idea there. That will help a LOT with firewall flexing.
If I had to do it over again with 4th gen pedals, I would have made them fit more like you did. I probably still would have ditched the gas pedal, but yours seems to fit way better than mine did. I def would have modified the upper bracket like you did. That bolt gave me fits.
Looking forward to seeing how things fit when you drill the mount holes for the master and get everything buttoned up.
Strange, When I went to mount the 4th gen pedals in my 83 Camaro, Going from an auto to a T56 I thought for sure I was going to have to drill the hole. There was a gob of seam sealer from the factory, picked it off and there was a metal plug installed in the master hole, popped it out and its the perfect size and in the perfect position for the master.... strange because my car is a factory auto. I wonder why the 83 would have the hole pre drilled and the 87 would not?
I'm not sure how the facroty manual clutch linkage works on earlier 3rd gens since mine was an auto, but does it seem strange the hole for the manual linkage would be the same shape and size as the hole for hydraulic linkage of later years? if my 83 was a factory manual it would have used the manual "z bar" linkage right? I wish I would have taken a pic of the plug before I removed it, but I was too excited when I saw it lol. I just thought it was way to damn cool that I didnt have to drill that hole.
I just mounted the 4th gen pedals today. Only issue is w/ the holes just like in the picture in post #28. So, I now have to either make the holes on the bracket larger or open up the holes on the firewall.
Here are the final pics with the master cylinder installed. I went with a mcleod adjustable master cylinder. Of course I bought this before the tick master was out so I'm stuck with it for awhile. If any one else has a mcleod master cylinder then stop what you are doing right now and read this thread.
Im happy with the alignment and the travel seems good. I haven't measured the piston travel to the clutch pedal stop yet. I will eventually measure and then post the results. Everything else looks awesome.
Hmm....I see one of the thirdgen pedal support brackets. Good idea there. That will help a LOT with firewall flexing.
J.
Nice catch on the third gen bracket! I could only use one side of course because the 4th gen bracket on the left was in the way. It feels firm and sturdy.
Good posts. Im about to put a T56 in my vert. I didnt get pedals with my swap parts.
So looking for some now.
I can get a 4thGen set for $45 (the gas pedal is cut off the bracket but included)
I could either reweld it. Or use the 4thGen brake and clutch pedal and keep my 3rdGen gas pedal stock.
I see some like the 3rdGen pedals better. I see some like the 4thGen pedals better. MMm what to do...
I love the idea of using the third gen bracket as extra support and i did that this evening on my car.
I have everything mocked up on my car and have yet to tighten down any bolts and the master cylinder reservoir is sitting too high aka its gonna interfere with the hood. I am using 4th gen everything in my third gen, the Booster, Master cylinder, pedals and all. I am thinking that I can fix this issue by simply using some large washers on the top two studs to angle it down more.
If at all possible I would avoid the washers, you don't want any possible issues with brakes. I would use the 3rd gen booster and the 4th gen master if it wil bolt up or use all 3rd gen booster and master. Just my 2 cents.
I might have missed this, but are all 4th gen pedal assemblies the same between the V6 and LS cars or does anyone know if there is a difference? I've seen some 4th V6 cars in the wrecking yard but wasn't ever sure if all of the pedal assemblies are the same or not. Thanks.
Hey Very cool build. I have just decided to take the plunge myself and do the a T56 swap. Thanks for doing all the mock up and work with the pedals and sharing with everyone.
How do the holes line up with the 4th gen set? Actually they line up very well. I have heard of people bending the pedal set to get it to fit. My set lined up almost perfectly. The 4th gen set uses the same four bolts in the rear of the bracket and one thru the top of the bracket. Two of the holes on the top of the bracket must be opened up a small amount. The hole on the left has been reworked while the one on the right is untouched in the below pic. And only on the top two holes must they be opened up.
The thru bolt on the top of the bracket however does not line up on the 4th gen set.
The clutch master holes actually line up perfectly with the stock locations. This is taking into consideration the padding in between the pedal bracket and the firewall. The distance of the padding is 3/8". You can actually see the holes in the padding where the clutch master will go. This is the stock padding and has not been cut yet.
The gas pedal bracket lines up well too but only uses one of the stock studs. It should still be very sturdy when bolted to one stud because the bracket is one piece unlike the 3rd gen set. The distance between the gas pedal bracket and the firewall is 5/8" without the padding. With the padding there is an additional 1/4" of space. Total distance is 5/8".
At this time I have not bent the brackets to fit flush against the firewall. No bending is necessary if using the padding. Im sure the gas pedal portion would become flush to the firewall if it was torqued down. I was just doing a dry run and test fit no bending or mods yet. The four bolts connecting the brake booster are flush with the firewall. The top thru bolt is also flush with the top of the firewall but does not line up with the stock threaded location.
I’ve got a 87 Camaro that I bought a complete 5 speed swap out of an 88 iroc got everything put together and started doing my pedals was having a hard time cause there fourth gen pedals ended up having to cut the gas pedal off and using my old one anyway I bought a new slave cylinder for a third gen and I’m also using the third gen master with fourth gen pedals I can’t get the clutch bleed have had two different people mess with it other than myself and can’t figure it out it seems like the clutch pedal doesn’t have enough travel but everything seems to be together right idk if anyone has any advice it’s be much appreciated
04-08-2009, 10:09 PM
- is there any way you could post pics of the electrical switches (& maybe even part numbers)?? 
