Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Hey guys,

I picked up a set of the hotchkiss lowering springs for my car which dropped the car, I'd say 1.5-2" all around. I LOVE how the car now sits but as I've read more, I feel like I also need to get a new adjustable panhard bar, lower control arm relocation brackets, an adjustable torque arm and new rear lower control arms.

My question is, in order of precedence, which should I get first and why? For a street car, is it really necessary and what, if any damage will I cause long term by not getting them? Any advice is appreciated!

Guest

Idk about "necessary", but the precedent to my understanding goes like this
:Lower control arms and relocation brackets
Wonder bar if not already had
Shocks then struts
Panhard bar
Poly end links to your sway bars is a good idea as well

paul_huryk

Struts, shocks, and an alignment (if you haven't done all that already).

Poly sway bar bushings and end links - unless you already did them.

Weld in subframe connectors.

Panhard rod, rear control arms, TQ arm, CA brackets.

Strut tower brace.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I guess I should have mentioned other mods. These mods have already been done...

Hotchkiss front and rear sway bar
Wonder bar
Hotchkiss lowering springs (already mentioned)
poly bushings all around
Spohn Subframe conectors

I'm currently running a set of Monro Sensa-trac struts/shocks, but I've been looking at Koni's. However, I don't know if I should get the adjustable ones or not. Is there a need/requirement for adjustable? the front left strut has begun leaking, so I'll be replacing them, but...probably going to have to limp it to tax return season. I have had the alignment done already and the springs are in the car already also as well as the items mentioned earlier.

This car is carbed, so I don't know which strut brace to get, none that I've seen would seem to fit it.

BMR Tech

Lowering your car that much means that a panhard bar is necessary as well as shocks. You can get by without them, but your rearend alignment will be off, and your shocks will probably wear out at an accelerated rate. Because of that, I consider the them a requirement.

Lower control arms and relocation brackets are not required. If you end up having traction or wheel hop problems as a result of lowering, then you'll need LCAs w/Relocation Brackets.

Anything else is just an optional performance benefit.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Should I look into a solid or adjustable panhard bar?

How about a torque arm?

makingPAIN

I lowered my third gen firebird that much and i picked up a umi off car adjustable pan hard and i have my rear end within a 1/16 of an inch. u need one just like he said the rest is just optional good luck man

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Thanks man, I appreciate it. 17 years has gone by really fast!

Are adjusting the pan hard bar's easy? How do I know when it'll be centered/correct?

makingPAIN

yeah they are not bad i centered my wheels with my fender wells. and did a line from my tranny back just to make sure . the off car ones are a little more tough but worth the less money

LivinLarge

With your upgrades get the Koni's then get an adjustable panhard bar

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Adjustable or standard replacement syle Koni's? Also, on if I get the adjustable, how do I know where to set them? Is there a guide or recommended setting?

LivinLarge

With the adjustables, you can set the stiffness you want to ride. Either way will make a huge difference.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Soit's not adjusting the ride height as much as it's adjusing the ride firmness?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Just my experience with lowering:

I don't know about adjustable shocks, or if you really need them. I didn't, but I'd guess the adjustability is neat.

Just put a decent quality shock (Like Koni's, Bilsteins or the like) - on the car, and get rid of those sensi-tracs!!

I already had a non-adjustable UMI TQ arm, Spohn LCARBS (which I also didn't absolutley need) - and I still have my stock panhard rod. I plan to get an aftermarket panhard rod soon though....but the rear didn't go out of alignment when I lowered my car - but I've heard others that said thiers did. I just want an aftermarket panhard because the stock POS is flimsy, so I could use something stronger with this 9" Moser rear since it's heavier.

If you get some of the good aftermarket CC plates (JM, UMI etc), they sit about 1" higher than stock, so your strut travel is barely affected any when you use those w/lowering springs.

As mentioned, you'll need a realignment...BTW, the aftermarket CC plates wil also give you more adjustability for that too...so those are a "win - win" IMO..

My car came right into alignment with no change in pinion angle or rear alignment.....maybe I got lucky.

With reduced ground clearance, you'll want the ride stiffer anyway so you won't bottom out...that's why decent struts and shocks are important when lowering IMO...

EDIT: There's pics of all the crap I have on the car in the link below, and I have a thread out there when I lowered my car out there somewhere...

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

For our cars, we have a few different choices for Koni.

1) Red
2) Yellow (higher performance)....Get the yellow. End of story. Just get the yellow.

1) Single Adjustable (SA).....Get the single adjustable.
2) Dual Adjustable (DA)

For the front struts, this is easy. You get the yellows, which comes with a variable adjustment **** that you can turn to increase or decrease the amount of "rebound" on the car. Start with it in the fully soft position for a few weeks and then try turning it up a bit. Set it where you like it. For me, this is about 1/2 turn from full soft. Sometimes if I want to go have fun with the car, I'll turn it up to 1 full turn. Sometimes I'll set it on full soft. Just depends on mood.


For the rear shocks, you have two choices.
1) 3rd gen shocks. (1982-92) These have 4 different settings (0, 1, 2, 3 clicks).
2) 4th gen shocks. (1993-02) These have a variable **** like the front of the car.

The 4th gen shocks are about a $100 more expensive. But I wound up going with the 3rd gen shocks instead. The rear of the car doesn't seem to need the fine tuning that the front does. I set my (3rd gen) rear shocks in the full soft (0 click) setting and have had it there for almost 2 years now.

If you're wondering why I don't recommend DA struts/shocks, it's because they offer both compression and rebound adjustment instead of rebound only adjustment like the SA do.......Compression adjustment is more for people who have added/subtracted a lot of weight to the car. It's also harder to mess up the settings when you only have the single adjustment.

In terms of click adjustment. The 3rd gen rears are as such:
0 clicks = full soft (what I use)
1 clicks = 20% increase in rebound
2 clicks = 50% increase
3 clicks = 100% increase

pasuperdave

My opinion, and speaking from a bad experience.
Get yourself an adjustable torque arm first. Your pinion bearing and u-joints will thank you.
Second would be the adjustable panhard bar. If you look at the back of the car, you will see that the rear has shifted.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

After reading your first post...you lowered it already, and now you're asking if you need an adjustable panhard bar and TQ arm? Get a magnetic angle finder and see if you need the TQ arm. Also take side-to-side measurements on the rear end to see if you need the panhard.

-In any case, I'd get decent shocks.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I lowered the car years ago before I knew anything about pinion angles or adjustable pan hard bars. Now I'm just wondering if I need all these fancy upgrades or if my stock set up will still suffice. I'd rather spend money on a new paint job and some interior work but, if I need to upgrade because I missed something when I originally lowered the car, then I'll do it.

Podium

iTrader: (2)

You will need to get an adjustable to center the rear after lowering it.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

You'll only "need" the adjustable torque arm if your pinion angle is way off. You'll only "need" the adjustable panhard bar if the rear isn't centered.
Niether one of those things are fancy if they are both off....you'll need the adjustability they provide.

Are you having issues with the car not tracking correctly down the road? Tires wearing out prematurely? -I'll assume you got the front end aligned since it's been lowered for a while. Are you wearing out U-joints or weird vibration?

I guess I'm just wondering why you would ask this question if the car was lowered years ago, unless you're having issues since then - or never drive the car.

Pinion angle and side-to-side alignment of the rear can be checked easiliy enough. If they both check out OK, and you don't show any of the above symptoms, then you're most likely just fine with the setup you have.

built91Z28

The panhard bar is required to center the axle. If you lower the car, the rear axle is not centered. Every car, every time. The factory bar is a certain length to make the axle centered at a certain ride height. If you change this ride height, the axle is no longer centered. It wont be off by several inches or anything, but it will be off by some.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

"Off by some" being the main statement to take out of what built91Z28 is saying. It's simple geometry by the design of the rear pan hard, that it will change "some".

The bar indeed does center the car at a certain ride height...assuming the car stays at that exact ride height, it will stay perfectly centered. It's also designed so that the rear does not go too far from centered when the suspension is loaded, like when you go over dips in the road, bumps and the like. There's these two other things that's considered too. Most of our cars have a back seat and a trunk.

When people sit in the back seat, the ride height can lower 1" or more...or when some install that big sub box and amp in the trunk, etc...

I've yet to see any Camaro or Firebird track sideways down the road because there's people in the back seat, or they have tools in the trunk. That also leads me to believe that any shift to either side is very minimal when the suspension is loaded, and how much it shifts - no matter how drastically little - is highly dependent on how much lowered it is from the original ride height.

I'm no suspension expert by any means...if I'm setting a car up for road racing or any type of driving that deviates from normal, having the rear perfectly centered at all times might be much more critical and a adjustable bar might be required for better handling....and honestly the stock rear F body suspension wouldn't be my first choice for that type of driving anyway...I'd go with IRS for that. So you can either buy the bar, then measure...or vise versa. I know which is cheaper to do.

I'm not saying built91Z28 is wrong at all...you might need one. I didn't when I used Eibach Sportlines on mine....but the drop was only 1.0" in the rear. That MIGHT have shifted the rear 1/16th of an inch if even that much. If you're slamming it more than that, the change might be a bit more and you'll need to adjust.

pasuperdave

I was speaking by the experience I had in my earlier post. I'm far from being an expert either. When changing your ride height, you change more than just the height. The angle of the pinion changes, thus changing the angles your ujoints must operate. The change in mine was significant enough to tear up my pinion bearing and seal. I researched and found I indeed needed a adjustable torque arm to bring the spec back in to tolerance. The adjustable panhard bar is also a must. Besides just the appearance of having the rear not centered, you would think there was more to it. If the rear is not centered, how does that affect the spring mountings? How about the lower control arms and bushings that are now trying to operate at a different angle? What about the new angle the shocks operate at? The rear is centered because of more than just appearance. In my case the rear was shifted a little more than 1/2". If I had it to do all over again, I would have researched this site and others as a tool to know what I found out the hard way.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I'll stick to what I've been saying all along. The OP's car is already lowered guys.

To the OP: Take the pinion angle reading, and check you rear end side-to-side alignment and base your decisions on what your results are. It's as simple as that.

There's also a helpful post on "lowering 101" at the top of the suspension board here.

pasuperdave

I agree that was easy....lol