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Good Evening All;
I have 1988 Camaro RS & am in the process of upgrading from RS suspension to IROC suspension. What is some of the places that I can find stock IROC sway bars? I keep coming across Detroit Speed, QA1, etc... type sway bars & I'm just trying to find regular stock IROC bars.
...or... if there's just a better way/item to get then send me those suggestions as well. I'd prefer it to be somewhat affordable but will take any an all suggestions.
BTW, I'm doing my homework... I don't come on here and ask a question unless I've first already researched... typically I research and just get my mechanically ignorant butt confused.
Thank in advance...
Last edited by Outkast Actual; Jan 22, 2021 at 10:46 PM.
Most will hit local junkyards looking for ws6 bars or for guys parting out cars. Hawks has a large selection of bars but they also sell a factory front 36mm that is powder coated and comes with new bushings and end links. The rear bar is more finicky some run a small rear bar others a large 1 but a few run without it also depends on driving style and spring rates.
The stock IROC-Z front sway bar is 35 mm and it's hollow making it fairly light for it's diameter. I looked around and I found unless you want to dig through junk yards and search online for people selling their stuff it was easier to just buy a new one. UMI has a 36 mm solid bar and holding both bars in your hands the solid bar must be darn near twice the weight. I think Helwig (sp) and a few other places sell their bars on summit. Detroit Speed seems to go out of their way not to give the diameter of their sway bars and I think it's because it's a smaller diameter (around 34 mm) than the stock IROC-Z bar but it's solid so in the end it's notably stiffer. I went with UMI because of their good tech support and they are locally in PA where I am located. My second option was Detroit speed but on just about all the parts they were around 20% more expensive. Maybe they are 20% better too, not sure, but I was replacing stock parts so it was all an improvement.
PS - Sorry to say my stock IROC-Z bar is not for sale I have a different project in mind for it.
There were acoupla different sizes used in different years.
34 solid and 36 hollow are the 2 most common I've seen or heard of. They're roughly the same "rate". (think of a sway bar as a spring that controls the extent to which the 2 sides of the suspension can deflect differently from each other, therefore it has a "rate" even though it's not generally "rated" that way) Not saying the above is wrong, just, not the most common, by far.
24 was the most common rear that I know of that went with those. For best safest most predictable & reliable handling, the front & rear sway bars, and the springs on each end, need to be in some reasonable proportion to each other; it's not one of those "more is better" or "all the fast cars have a" kind of deals. Too much rear bar or spring compared to the front in particular can make a car want to swap ends and spin out when braking and turning at the same time. Intended use, and driver ability and preference, play a major role. If you're looking at stock or close to it, stick with a total package that doesn't deviate too far from a stock one, at least at first.
Problem with "where to buy" stock ones is, they come from old cars. Nobody can go out and place an order for someone to wreck a particular year & model of car at a time that's convenient to keeping some particular desirable and sought-after used car parts on their shelf. While some people, maybe Hawks for example, keep their ear to the junkyard ground and snarf up every 3rd gen they can find just to strip down, that's still no guarantee that they, or anybody else, will have any particular part just sitting around to be sold at any particular time. I seriously doubt you can actually find new ones anymore, like at a dealer or something. You might just have to wait in line like everybody else.
That said, check all the places like that, that you can find. Start with the board sponsors since you already know they have some degree of interest in these cars. Your local junkyard probably is on the hotline that lots of them are, such that whenever somebody orders something, they get notified whenever one of the other yards gets one, so check with them and see what they say. You might have to put down a deposit which is kinda normal these days, what with all the window shoppers and tire kickers out there; and whatever shows up when a car gets wrecked, might not be what you were wishing for; but that's the way the junk parts cookie crumbles.
Or, look at the aftermarket, like UMI or the other board sponsors or whoever. DSE is pretty much the $$$$ of it all: some really fine parts but WAY overkill for many people. QA1 largely specializes toward racing but might have something.
I'm a bit stumped where this information is coming from, especially from longtime members that generally have a clue...
Back in the day, when these cars were newish (I've been messing with these cars since '91, and I test drove a new '90 and '92), the factory bushings with the factory shells actually had the bar sizes cast in the side of them (they had a little 32 or 36... cast into them). The common performance sizes for the front bars were 32mm solid (came on the early Z28's and Trans ams with WS6 package...), 34mm HOLLOW (standard bar used on the '87 TTA but that application used special bushings, also the most common on performance applications after about '85 replacing the 32mm, and the 36mm hollow which came on heavily optioned performance suspension cars (most WS6 mid 80's and later, 1LE...). I also worked at a speed shop, and back then most people that came in thinking "I have the big tubular/holow bar, I need 36mm bushings" really needed 34's if you measured them (it was surprising how common a thing this was, we kept a set of calipers at the counter for this reason). Since then it seems like all the 34's disappeared and EVERYONE has a 36. I suspect that most of the 36's out there are actually 34's. They just weren't that common.
There was also one or more base suspension bars in the 27-30mm range, but I never really kept track of them.
Because the tubular bars were hollow, they did get a little compressed in the bends and were difficult to measure (only measure straight sections and try it in different orientations on the same spot). According to the GM parts listings, there was no 35 hollow or otherwise (there are aftermarket ones, I believe they are all solid but I'm not positive, the 1.3xx" one that Hawks and other's sell are 35mm), there was no 34mm solid, just a hollow.
The back bars are not so clear, just because you had the "big" bar on the front doesn't mean that you had a matching one on the back. The most common ones are 19mm and 21mm. The "big" bar for the back is the 24mm, there is also a 25mm (some people call it an "Iroc" bar which doesn't really make sense because the Pontiacs were both more heavily optioned and more performance-oriented wheel rates so typically got stiffer rear springs and bar than the comparable Chevy). This is a bit of a mystery bar, there was a GM part number for one, but I've never seen one or found anyone that was able to confirm it. There are also a bunch of aftermarket 1" bars (25mm) that I'm wondering might be the 1" bars that people claim to have occasionally. There is also a 7/8" bar (about 22mm) that I know for sure existed but I'm wondering if it originally came from another car line, I don't know why it would be listed in 7/8's unless that was the only way to get bushings for it.
I have a small collection of bars that came off performance suspension cars hanging off my wall and I have a 36F that came with a 21R and a 36F that came with a 19R. I have a 32F that came with a 24R and a 36 that came with a 24R. My current TA project car (WS6 suspension) came with a 36/24 combination.
the 2 bars that I want that I haven't been able to get my hands on since I've tried is a 34mm and the 25mm.
Edit:
Funny, I just ran out to the garage with a set of calipers because I was curious about something and I checked a pair that I tucked under my parts car that was sold to me as 36/24, they even have some worn out 36mm bushings on them, and I haven't cleaned them up and hung them on the wall yet. Turns out that they are a 34 (again, hollow), and the rear is clearly a 25mm. Since the 25 has what looks like a factory tag on it (but it's unreadable), I'm wondering If I've found a mystery 25mm. It definitely looks like the rest of my factory-style bars and has a dull black finish, not shiny powdercoat like aftermarket bars.
There were acoupla different sizes used in different years.
34 solid and 36 hollow are the 2 most common I've seen or heard of. They're roughly the same "rate". (think of a sway bar as a spring that controls the extent to which the 2 sides of the suspension can deflect differently from each other, therefore it has a "rate" even though it's not generally "rated" that way) Not saying the above is wrong, just, not the most common, by far.
I've never seen or heard of a factory 34 solid. There used to be a number of TTA guys locally and they used to break the bushing shells on their cars, and I've modified a few sets of Iroc 34mm bushings and shells to fit on the TTA's (they had them spaced down with different mounts to clear the intercooler). 34mm hollow bars used to be everywhere before about 10-15years ago.
24 was the most common rear that I know of that went with those. For best safest most predictable & reliable handling, the front & rear sway bars, and the springs on each end, need to be in some reasonable proportion to each other; it's not one of those "more is better" or "all the fast cars have a" kind of deals. Too much rear bar or spring compared to the front in particular can make a car want to swap ends and spin out when braking and turning at the same time. Intended use, and driver ability and preference, play a major role. If you're looking at stock or close to it, stick with a total package that doesn't deviate too far from a stock one, at least at first.
Yes, but this was the reason that you often saw 36mm fronts with 21mm rear. These cars were tuned to understeer from the factory for safety.
Problem with "where to buy" stock ones is, they come from old cars. Nobody can go out and place an order for someone to wreck a particular year & model of car at a time that's convenient to keeping some particular desirable and sought-after used car parts on their shelf. While some people, maybe Hawks for example, keep their ear to the junkyard ground and snarf up every 3rd gen they can find just to strip down, that's still no guarantee that they, or anybody else, will have any particular part just sitting around to be sold at any particular time. I seriously doubt you can actually find new ones anymore, like at a dealer or something. You might just have to wait in line like everybody else.
This is exactly the thing, I don't think that anyone made "replacement" stock sway bars for these cars. There are performance ones, and as far as I know, most of them were heavy, solid bars.
Interesting... My '87 IROC-Z has the 25.4 mm (1 inch) rear and your explanation would explain why it was a PITA to get bushings this summer. I ended up getting bushings from Hawks. I'm sure I could have used a "universal" 25.4 mm bushing from Prothene or Energy Suspension but I did that on my 93 pickup with the 32 mm bushing and the bushing cross-section near the frame was so thin the bar rubbed the frame directly after a year.
Another point, if you have the factory mounting hardware for the rear sway bar to the axle, hold on to it. I haven't found anyone that makes the same half-circle with the locating notch that interfaces with the raised tab on the axle. UMI has a piece with "sawtooth" looking interface but if you have the tab welded on your axle I'm not sure how it fits. I cleaned the rust off of mine, painted and reused them.
I don't think there's any disputing that the 36mm front bar is hollow, part of the WS6 option, like on my Formula. Whereas, IROC got a 34mm bar. And somewhere here on TGO is a picture of the two bars, side-by-side, showing the hole in each one, verifying the 34mm bar is also hollow.
The rear bars are solid, of course. My Formula with WS6 has 24mm. IROC got 23mm, I think, possibly 22mm.
Leave it to Hawks to take a used OE front sway bar, powder coat it and offer it for $150. Otherwise, junkyards or other used parts places are the only answers for OE bars, possibly ads in the classifieds here on TGO.
The most common sizes available from aftermarket vendors seem to be 35mm(aka 1-3/8") front, and 25mm(aka 1") rear, depending on whether they list them in millimeters or inches.
Spohn's 1-3/8" front bar is apparently hollow: "tubular" and "10 pounds lighter" than other's. UMI states its 35mm front bar is solid.
As for any of them being "affordable," that's up to the buyer.
do you know if the 36mm hollow...is that true for both Iroc and T/A
AFAIK all of the 36s on these cars were hollow, on both trim packages.
I've seen 34 solid with my own eyes; can't promise it was an OE, but I had no reason at the time to suspect otherwise. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if there was a 34 hollow as well although I've never seen one myself.
Seems like quite a bit of this sort of thing depends on what cars people have had experience with... I've mostly dealt with Camaro, while there's others who've had exclusively Firebirds, for example. Then there's the year model range issue. Somehow I have a feeling that there are more options out there than most people might have personally come across in their careers.
83 Crossfire is right about using the smaller rear bar: less rear bar tends to make a car understeer more (or oversteer less if you want to look at it that way), which is generally considered less unsafe, since it's easier to predict where a car will go if it wants to just keep going in a straight line when its traction limits are exceeded, than if it wants to start spinning.
AFAIK all of the 36s on these cars were hollow, on both trim packages.
I've seen 34 solid with my own eyes; can't promise it was an OE, but I had no reason at the time to suspect otherwise. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if there was a 34 hollow as well although I've never seen one myself.
Somewhere, I don't know where right now (though I'm pretty sure I know what room of the house), I have a printout of all the factory springs and sway bars that a friend of mine that was a GM parts manager pulled for me. I know for sure that there was a hollow 34 but not a solid one. That does not preclude that it might not have been a rare piece and/or was missed, but I can say with about 97% certainty that it was just the hollow version.
Seems like quite a bit of this sort of thing depends on what cars people have had experience with... I've mostly dealt with Camaro, while there's others who've had exclusively Firebirds, for example. Then there's the year model range issue. Somehow I have a feeling that there are more options out there than most people might have personally come across in their careers.
I will admit that I've only owned Pontiacs, and most of my friends the same, including a few relatively rare TTA's (it seems like I've known a lot of TTA/GN owners). I've probably worked on 10 Pontiacs for every 1 chevy. OTOH, when I worked at the speed shop I'd bet that I've sold parts in the opposite ratio of Camaro to firebird and the crazy thing is that it seems like fully half of those were IROCs.
83 Crossfire is right about using the smaller rear bar: less rear bar tends to make a car understeer more (or oversteer less if you want to look at it that way), which is generally considered less unsafe, since it's easier to predict where a car will go if it wants to just keep going in a straight line when its traction limits are exceeded, than if it wants to start spinning.
it's also the reason for the crazy alignment that these cars got from the factory, camber was literally the opposite of what would result in the best handling to limit the lateral grip in the front without having to run bigger rear tires.
Crossfire is correct the Hawks powder coated bar isn’t 36mm the measurement I just took off of it was 34-35mm the powder coat tells me this is a plain 34mm GM bar same as I took off my car for the Hawks one both hollow.
DSE front sway bar is 1 3/8 hollow for anyone looking for that info which is about 35mm.
And since the subject of paint thickness has shown up in this thread, just as it has in several other threads in a similar way, I'd like to address how paint affects the total measured thickness of parts: essentially, it doesn't.
Powder coat is just paint that has been applied through an electrostatic process, to use an old school term, but it's still just paint. One dry coat is measured in mils(thousandths of an inch) and usually has an approximate dry film thickness of 2 to 3 mils, which equals .002" to .003", or .05mm to .07mm. So the paint on a part is going to have almost zero affect on that finished part's total measured thickness, let alone turn a 34mm part into a 35mm part. I don't mean to pick on anyone, really. But since such perceptions have popped up many times in the past, now seemed like a good time to address it. So there it is, for reference in future searches, because, you know, people often search for such information lol.
So there it is, for reference in future searches, because, you know, people often search for such information lol.
