Jason M 91Z

Anybody have experience with these guys or this alternator? Its the "Iceberg" style made by nat. quick start. $200 for a 170A alternator sounds too good to be true. Heres the site:

http://www.alternatorparts.com/cs130_&_cs130d_alt.htm

Look about half way down for the 3 wire CS130's.

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Stuart Moss

Jason,

Interesting site.

Note that in the upper left corner of the site you'll see "Quick Start". "Iceburg" is also used for the alternators, so I would guess that they are one and the same. I thought they only made the rebuilding kits.

I noticed that when I went to the CS-130 page to view them, it doesn't have the rear housing with the finned (heatsink) area as my Iceburg modification does. It also states in the text that the rear housing has a finned or heatsinked area, but nothing in the images they had. Also, the bottom most image in the "view" page had what looked like a chromed (polished???) rear housing (and still no finned area). What's up with that?

What I'd really be interested in is the CS-130D that they have - especially considering the improvements that would sure seem to solve the overheating problems of its predecessor, the CS-130. The improvements claimed were:

1. More open design for better air flow
2. Larger bearings
3. Dual Internal Fans to increase air volume
4. Regulator and Rectifier located on the outside, away from stator and rotor heat.

Also note that the last of the three CS-130D alternators (for $200) does not have an output rating. I'd guess the rating would be the same as the CS-130 (170 amperes).

I wonder if it could be adapted to fit in place of the CS-130. I would definately be interested if so.

I would also be curious to know if those output ratings are under continuous and hot conditions. If an alternator is not rated under those two conditions, then the ratings are not very meaningful (at least to me).

Jason M 91Z

Stuart,

On my browser, the last CS130D has a rating of 170A, but the alt. pic is covering up some of the remaining text. Maybe your browser is covering the "170A" ?

I'm assuming that 170 A is under ideal conditions, and is more a peak current than RMS. I'm also assuming those pics are of a Delco rear housing to show the comparison, because in the product description it says:

The "Iceberg" CS-130 improvements include:
· Improved Rectifier for the higher amps
· The Patented "Iceberg" Finned rear housing
to better remove heat from the rectifier and
rear bearing area

Interesting that you'd mention the CS130D conversion. I'm also trying to find info about the swap. The case dimensions look the same, and so does the pulley distance off the mounting point. If I find out they're swappable, I'll let you know. Can anyone confirm?

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Jason M 91Z

Found out some new info on the CS130D:

One of the new features on the CS130D is the alternator's internal temperature sensor. The regulator will sense the alternator's internal temperature and SHUT THE CHARGING SYSTEM DOWN if the unit reaches 280 deg. F.

hmmm...

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Stuart Moss

Yea, I knew something was wrong when I saw some images covering some text - I'm using IE5.5.

Yes, I agree, it looks like it has the same or at least similar dimensions as the older CS-130.

I have zero information on the CS130D alternators. Please make a post if/when you find something.

Thanks //Stuart

Stuart Moss

We overlapped posts -

Good find!

I remember reading some specification sheets from Motorola about some of their automotive alternator voltage regulators (MCCF33095 and MC33095D, discontinued several years ago) that had the thermal protection function, but this feature was not accessable from the chip. I knew it wouldn't be long until they would get this needed protection circuitry into the alternator.

Think there'd be any chance of me picking one up at a junk yard for $20-30 to experiment on?

Jason M 91Z

Yeah I remember something about Bosch or Nippondenso doing some kind of thermally cutout rectifier like that?

Only bad part I see is that it cuts out at 280*! Sometimes underhood temps are right up about 260, so if your idling for a while w/ your AC on, I bet the rect. would kick out.

I'm thinking of picking one up at the boneyard too. My moms BF's 2K1 Silverado has the 130D IIRC. Maybe he won't know that its missing... HAHA! Keep me posted bro.



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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

JPrevost

I talked to powermaster a while ago and the service guy said that the D will bolt right in BUT it won't use one of the stock mounting bolts. I don't know what but if somebody could get pictures that would be much appreciated.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

Jason M 91Z

Well, just got a reply from Terry @ Reliabilt.

He said:

"YOU CAN INTERCHANGE THE 130D FOR THE CS130 ALT. THE PLUGS, HOWEVER ARE A DIFFERENT SHAPE. YOU WILL NEED TO REPLACE THE PLUG CONNECTOR TO THE CS130D TYPE CONNECTOR. THERE REALLY IS NO ADVANTAGE TO CHANGE. THE AMPERAGE IS THE SAME FOR BOTH ALTS."

He did type in all caps too. =) While amperage wouldn't be an advantage, I'm sure the inherent cool down problems in the 130 may be past history after installing a 130D. I might be the guinnea pig and buy a 130D (170A) and try to convert. HTH.



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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Stuart Moss

Thanks!

All caps? Maybe he was really excited?!

"...There is no advantage between the 130 and 130D because the amperage is the same...". So the better cooling and safetly feature (excessive temperature cut off) do not count for anything!? That to me would be reason enough to make the switch.

Changing the plug would be child's play.

Please let me know how it works out and performs if you do get it.

Thanks

//Stuart

Jason M 91Z

Will do bro! Keep in mind this swap may not take place until winter. I'm saving for an ATI P600B system right now, and putting in a ZZ4 shortblocked, hopefully AFR headed motor in then. If my rebuilt 130 cant take this summer's AC and stereo usage, the swap might take place a little sooner! See you around man.

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Jason M 91Z

Stuart, new news.

That www.alternatorparts.com site has NEW Delco CS144 alternators (140A) for $199!

Here are the details, check it out!
http://www.alternatorparts.com/CS-144_Special_offer.htm

I think this is the standard alternator offered on 91-92 B4C optioned Camaros.

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Jason M 91Z

Well, I did it! I just bought the CS144 140A alt. It only has 12 O'Clock mounting though, so I'm going to have to figure out some type of bracket, or rape a C4 vette or 96 LT1 F-body of the bracket. I'll let you know how it goes!

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Jason M 91Z

I found the GM bracket PN from an old post on the Electronics board. Its # 10118722. Cost: $40.25 from GMPartsdirect.com. I'll let everyone know how it works out in a couple weeks!

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Stuart Moss

Jason,

Thanks for the info.

While they didn't give any specific details like they did for the CS-130D, that model (144) seems to be the answer. I'm surprised that the case is not as opened as the 130D. It seems to be the answer - latest technology in a large case.

My thinking before had always swayed toward the large-cased alternators like the police Camaro alternator, a 140 ampere (10463338 for $235) that used a special alternator bracket (10118722 for $50) that a post described here NOV 00. It's easier/better to use a large case for more output. I think the small case styles (CS130) are just too small for demanding continuous and hot high output. That's why you'll only see the "big boys" using large cases for their alternators, such as Leese-Nievel (sp?), etc. that are on large trucks.

But your find of the 144 seems to be the answer. I don't know what you mean about it only having a 12 o'clock mounting position. Looking at the link you posted, the mounting looks identical to what we have, but this is a large case, so I don't know what they meant by saying "This model is also a directly replace for the 100 & 105 Amp CS-130". Bad grammer aside, maybe they meant that it was "electrically" a direct replacement. If it doesn't physically fit, maybe the large case alternator adapter (see above) would make the modification a simple bolt-in operation. Don't forget that changing the location may also require a new belt size.

Before you had posted this thread, I was looking at www.premierpowerwelder.com/specs/ppwspecs.html for a beefier alternator. $500 for a 170 ampere (70 at idle) to replace the small case in '89 and newer and ~$700 for a 210 ampere (100 at idle) for Hummer, GM and Dodge.

Even the aftermarket alternators that still use the small case are often asking for >$350 for one in the 140-190 ampere range. Since this one is <$200, if it's all it's claimed to be, I'd definately be interested. I'll be anxious to hear you results.

Regards,

//Stuart

german-motorsport

perfect work from both of you!!
after stuart wrote a reply to my post today i kind of sucked in the info ...!
so is the bracket working?
the police bc4 did use the140 amp stuart you where right about that....is the police version using the 130 or 144 housing ?
belt lengh shouldn ´t be a problem to get in any size!
i still wonder that you both choose the 140amp 144 case when there is the 130D with 170 amp for sale for the same price?
cooling on the "open " 130D case should be the same compared to the big "closed" 144 case?!

Stuart Moss

Mario,

Well, since the 144 is supposed to be the upgrade/improvement/replacement for the older CS-130D, I figured that it would be better, having eliminated any problems (whatever they might be) from the CS-130D. After all, newer is better, isn't it??????

I would think an open style case like the 130D would be better, but since it's a large case, like you questioned, maybe the engineers determined that it was not needed.

I'm waiting for Jason (or you!) to let me know how if you have any problems with the installation, especially since it's a large case alternator, before doing it myself. I'm hoping that the alternator bracket will make it a simple bolt in installation - but you never know...

EDIT:
Police version = large case = higher output capacity (144)

130 is small case

[This message has been edited by Stuart Moss (edited June 21, 2001).]

german-motorsport

hi stuart!
thanks for replying on my post to answer some Q´s of "73"....lol!........A 120 amps is not enough. Good GAWD, I have a 100-amp service for my house, and that is enough.
What is drawing over 100 amps?

IP: Logged

german-motorsport
Member
Posts: 23
From: germany
Registered: May 2001
posted June 21, 2001 02:36 PM
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plssssssssss read my post first ...before you....!!
i did asked to reply all post to stuart and jason´s link!
100amp in a lg4 fine ...no power nothing no efi little carb and from time to time a brake lite sucking power...oh there is a coil too called hei !
if live has more to offer u get a gta fully loaded with efi 3 fans to finally cool the engine down ...pumpin stereo and alarm ...so on!
at idle ...see the jason side ( check alt-perm.com) the altenator has less output...not only that was my concern but also the weak stock bearing on the 130 case....and also the heat build up in the stock case!! from the factory i have a 105 amp alt with a tiny battery location ! driving at nite with lites and stereo on they get useless!
i hope this helps "73" what we were talkin about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IP: Logged

Stuart Moss
Member
Posts: 295
From: Warrenton, VA U.S.A.
Registered: Jul 2000
posted June 21, 2001 02:45 PM
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One cannot equally compare a 100 ampere "home service" to a 100 ampere automotive system just by the amperage because one is 120 or 220 volts (the home) and the other is 12 volts (automobile).
A 120 volt 100 ampere service would be 12,000VA (volt/ampere) but only one tenth (0.1) that at 12 volts. Since most homes bring in 220/240 volts (splitting that to get 120VAC), then the difference would be even greater if those figures are used. The point I'm attempting to make is that it isn't a fair comparison because of the voltage difference.

Some guys, especially those running a high end sound system, can easily require over 200 amperes.

The fans (~30 amperes for both operating together), ignition, lights, fuel pump, fan, wipers, defroster, windows as well as charging the battery after every start, are just some of the the things that demand a good amount of current. And that is just stock. Add a high end sound system and you may not even be able to find one to supply all the current needed (at least continuously).

Good (standard?) engineering practice is to use an alternator that is rated well above the actual current needs. So right there you can figure you'll need around 30% or so additional amperes from the alternator just for the safety margin (future needs, etc.)

Years ago (early 1960's ?) a 37 ampere alternator was the norm, then it went up to about 55/65 amperes, and now to about 100. We've got so many electrical needs now that that figure will soon be too little - or is too little already... There has been some talk of using a higher voltage (i.e. 48 volts) to replace the 12 volt system for the automobile. Anyone remember the 6 volt system (old VW for example)???

Anyway Mario, please let us (me) know how it works out. I too would like to get the 144 alternator (140 amperes) and would be curious to know your results.

FYI, I've have the "Iceburg" kit ($50) on my CS-130 for 30K miles and so far I'm happy with it. The larger rear bearing and added aluminum on the rear half for better cooling sure make a lot of sense. If nothing else, it seems to be at least a good interim solution.

[This message has been edited by Stuart Moss (edited June 21, 2001).]


ok ..you might be right with the big case ( doesn´t need to be open)..mhmm!
i checked the part number both of you posted for the bracket!what kind of engines do you have?????
mine is race set up ! i took all stuff out i dont need! i am swappin to EFI this summer after my tunnelram love affair was ended by new coverment laws!even our racing league changed stuff so much!
the cb4 was a tpi set up i checked the partnummer and its different!the one i found for tpi is 10105212!
the next thing i will check is: a Bosch catalog to see if there are any 140amp and up partnumbers in there! i will have to build a bracket any way for my sec car cause it will have no power strg. but lots of aftermarket syst. up front! but for our members and my daily i would love to see a straight forward gm solution!

Jason M 91Z

Well, my CS144 arrived today, and I must say it is a nice piece of equipment...

2 problems however: my bracket wont be here til monday, and lets just hope it can do some kind of miracle, cuz this alt. is really big. The other problem is that I have to clock the alternator 90* counterclockwise. Right now the + stud on the back hits my valve cover. I took out my 130 to try the 144, and its not even close to fitting, so I hope this bracket is what we need.

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Stuart Moss

Wow, you sure didn't waste any time! That was fast.

I guess if you've never seen a large case alternator that it'd look a lot larger compared to a small case (130). I too hope that the dimensions of the 144 is the same as a standard large case so the special bracket will fit.

Regarding the output stud - you know that always kind'a bothered me on my CS130 - there's less than 0.1" clearance between the valve cover and the plastic cover to insulate the output stud, or <0.2" between the stud and the cover. I've thought about using a little "persuasion" from a ball peen hammer to increase the clearance or better yet, a little creative welding to make a small "pocket" with an acetlyene torch.

Let us know how it works.

Dan91Z28

Hey All,

I have a 91z28 w/the 350 and I had a problem w/the rear alternator bearing overheating. So i ordered the iceberg kit # nqs-d1-7130 and got ready to install it and noticed that the bearing supplied was the same exact brand/size as what was already in the alternator! Its a ntn 62000LNA! So i'm curious if any of you got the same kit as me and what bearing came in it? Its the CS130 alternator. Does anybody know of a good brand name bearing i can replace the NTN with? I don't want to put it together w/the same 3mile island meltdown bearing lol!

Dan.

Stuart Moss

Dan,

I don't have the numbers of the "Iceburg" kit I got (the standard $50 kit). Normally I keep "insignificant" information like that for some reason...

Anyway, my rear bearing was definately larger (that's one of the selling points for this kit) than the original bearing. That's one of the reasons why they include a new rear case half (the other is to add some additional aluminum finned area to aid cooling).

My questions to you would be:

1. Did you get a new rear aluminum case half?

2. If so, is the hole for the rear bearing the same size as the original case half (as measured on the I.D. of the plastic insert)?

Jason M 91Z

Well, the bracket came monday, and it reqired a bit of grinding to get it to fit around the CS144 case from NQS. I got the bracket for $30.30 from GMPartsDirect.com. Here are the details of the swap as we speak:

1.) The rear alternator housing has to be clocked 90* counterclockwise so the output stud clears the valve cover.

2.) There is a bracket that goes from the rear housing to the exhaust manifold (in my case header) stud. This bracket was missing from my car when the previous owner had an alternator replaced with one that wasn't clocked for a thirdgen. It looks as if the stock bracket would not work anyway, so I'm going to have to find the PN.

Other than that everything works great. You can get GM part number 10463338 which is a rebuilt CS144 from GMPartsDirect.com for like $135 IIRC, and it may fit with no modifications. However, it is a rebuilt unit. The real **** of it is that I have to pull the pulley and fan to clock this alt. It has a sealed rear bearing and I don't want to pry up on the housing without knowing exactly how it goes together. I'll keep everyone posted as the swap continues...

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Stuart Moss

In the true spirit of tinkerers and expermienters, upon receipt of any new or unknown mechanical/electronic device, the first thing that must be done is to disassemble it and see what's inside and how it is constructed. Of course this is done before reading the instructions or plugging it in. The objective is to see what can be done to modify or adapt it.

An by the way, seals and potentially voided warrenties (much less security fastners) mean absolutely nothing in the hands of an expermienter.

DO IT!

Jason M 91Z

Thanks Stuart! But this pulley nut is on like a bitch and I don't know how I'm gonna hold the armature from spinning while I loosen the nut! I wish I had an impact gun! Any tips?

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Stuart Moss

Glad you asked....

After telling the friendly guys at NAPA that I wanted a 15/16" offset box-end wrench to hold the nut on a CS130 alternator (I couldn't find one anywhere!), they told me to just bring it in and they'd pop it off with their impact wrench.

Since I have only one car, I wound up just getting a 3/4" drive 15/16" socket and a 5/16" (I think) allen wrench (on a 3/8" drive).

I held the 15/16" socket on the alternator nut with a vice grips while rotating the rotor clockwise with the allen wrench driver inserted in the large 3/4" hold of the socket to remove the nut. No problem.

If I needed more grip on the socket, I could have easily grounded flats on the side to hold it better.

I used blue loctite upon reassembly. If I really wanted to hold it on, there's always the red.

Jason M 91Z

Stuart,

Thats what I've been trying to do, but the vice grips just pop off the 15/16" socket. You're right, it is 5/16" hex, and I tried it on a 1/2 drive ratchet and still couldn't budge that nut. Might be a little tighter on this 144, but its the same size... Ah well, back to the drawing board, or to borrow my bosses impact gun. Thanks Stuart.

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28

Stuart Moss

Jason,

You could just file/grind some flats on the smooth/round socket for a better grip.

Remember if you're holding the nut stationary, then you'll have to rotate the rotor (via the allen wrench) CLOCKWISE (as viewed from the pulley side). This will seem like tightning it. Sorry if this is obvious, sometimes I make dumb (simple) mistakes.