car has been running fine til this happened.

Ok, heres the deal I was coming back from a car show and when I entered the interstate I nailed the gas in 3rd of course to mess with the other cars around. I stayed in it and all of a sudden the car started back firing bad and sputtering and the car just cut off. luckly I was going about 100 so coasted to the next off ramp and had to park. THe car will not fire back up, I checked everything....fuel pump, ignition box, fuel pressure...dont know what else to check.

When i try to start it the car will just turn over and over and over like its not getting gas but will never actually try to fire. Now sometimes I will try sto start it and maybe once it will attempt to start but then back to just over and over and over...


what is it!...what the hell can I check? someone told me that it jumped timing.

 

Has fuel pressure?
Holding a spark plug against the block, crank it over, you see spark?
Hold your finger over that plug hole, feel air moving?
Then yea, sounds like it broke the timing chain. Pull a valve cover and crank it over. If no valves move at all, there you go.

 

what about the relays on the firewall drivers side? would any of them going bad cause the car not to fire?

 

One is the fuel pump relay, the other is for the fan.

 

well I can hear the fuel pump come on in the tank so Im pretty sure its not that but usually I can hear those relays click on/off after I turn the key on/off but I cant remember if that happens after the car has been running or not.anyways I dont hear them clicking.


so if I pull the valve covers off and the valves are moving then its not the timing chain?

what about jumping timing? what the hell is that and why would that happen? I still dont think thats what it is cause ive run the car hard before with no problems

 

I think jumping timing is an old myth.

Is it getting fuel? Is it getting spark? Is it getting fuel at the same time it's getting spark?

 

I don't know diddly about FI cars, so I try to keep it simple. If you don't have fuel pressure, then you can go about finding why. If you don't have spark, then you can go about finding why. If you have both (air is almost NEVER a problem) then it's typically spark or valve timing. FI car, spark timing is again, almost never a problem.

If the valves don't move at all, then the timing chain snapped and is in pieces. I'd guess that's rare, but that would explain it.
The timing chain can "jump" a tooth on one of the gears. I'd think it'd be pretty rare. You'd see the valves moving, but they would be out of time. If the valves are moving, your next check is to see if it has jumped a tooth:
You can put your finger in the number one plug hole, and rotate the engine over by hand, coming up towards the 0 mark on your balancer, you should feel the puff of air trying to push your finger out. If you don't, then you can be sure a valve is still open (ie, timing is off enough that there is no pressure built up).

I'd pull both valve covers off and crank it over and see if anything is "funny".

 

ok I pulled both valve covers and all the rockers are moving like that should be. I put the balancer on TDC #1 and looked at the rocker locations and they are right on where then should be when adjusting valves. So that should mean that I havent jumped timing?
I replaced all 3 relays on the drivers firewall with some spares that I had.
Nothing, still wont fire.

I bypassed the MSD ignition box and just went straight to the coil and nothing.

I pulled a plug wire spark plug and cranked the motor over and could see the spark on the tip of the plug so its getting spark.

fuel? the pump comes on and the fuel pressure gauge show just under 40psi


what else do I check?

 

Good on ya!
Ok, so it's getting a good nice white/blue spark? Try a few other plugs at random just to be sure. The distributor hasn't moved hey? Wiggle it, it isn't loose is it?
Ok, good fuel pressure.

So what happens now? You crank it, and it'll just crank and crank and crank? Does it try to start? Sputter and die? Or just cranks with no indication that it wants to fire up?

Wow, if you didn't have bad luck you'd have no luck at all. I bet if you went out and bought a lottery ticket your house would be surrounded by the IRS and you'd get audited you have such bad luck.


I don't even want to go down the next road.... But I suppose I should... Get a compression tester. Hook up your car to your battery charger so it's got lots of energy for the whole test, disconnect power to the distributor. Hook up the compression tester in place of a spark plug and crank it over. Do this for each cylinder. This will check if the valves are timed right (ie if it has jumped a tooth), and.... the even worse case

 

yeah I know..bad luck follows me. THe IRS will be at my house sometime this fall....LOL thats a different story.

But yeah, just cranks and cranks and cranks.

what would cause the major back firing that it did before it shut down

 

Really I think the root cause is electronic. Timing and computer control. But I deathly fear computers, so I tend to blame them for car problems.

That's hard to diagnose though, and above my head. I like to see things in black and white. You have spark, you have fuel, so you just need compression. That's what the compression test will check for you. If that checks out ok, then you can be sure it's computer/spark

 

im thinking the same thing. SO if it was computer or spark where would I start the process of elimination?

Dizzy is tight no play whatsoever..

I mean I dont see what would happen just from nailin it from about 50 or so, Ive done 10 roll nails and spun the tires for about 100 feet with no problems at all.

 

If it is computer, that's where I humbly bow out. Someone must know a good way to troubleshoot it.
Maybe pull all the plugs and see if anything looks amiss?

 

Have you checked injector pulse with a noid light? Are the plugs getting wet with fuel after you have been cranking the motor over? You may have fuel pressure but if the injectors arn't firing you wont have any fuel getting to the combustion chamber.

 

how do I check that? what would cause that?

 

You should be able to pick up a noid light at your local autoparts store. You plug the noid light in the connector for the injector you want to check. Crank the motor over and see if the light blinks, if the light blinks you have injector pulse. If not it could be a problem with the pcm.

 

what would cause there not to be any compression in the motor?

 

Uhhh... I don't have the heart to tell you....
It may have to do with driving it hard, over-revving it, and something going boom though...
Lets hope it's not that.

You want to test your noids-thingy, or check the compression? Your call.

 

should the noid light go dim or literally blink on/off? Cause when I check it, I gound one end to the body and have somebody in the car cranking it over and and I touch the light to the injector and it just goes dim doesnt blink. I also checked the spark and with the plugs out and connected to the wire and they dont spark. I looked at 2 of the plugs and they seem to have gas on them and the smell of gas

Maybe it was because the battery was going dead.

How would I check the ECM?

I am able to data log and hooked up my laptop and was able see most all of the data that is on until the car cranks.

so does that mean the cm is ok? when I unplug the chip the fan comes on.

I even tried a spare chip that I had.

 

Whoa whoa whoa, I thought you checked this before and verified spark? Put your battery charger on the car to maintain charge. But no, either way, if there's enough energy to spin the motor over, making spark is EASY. You didn't disconnect the distributor power while you were doing the noid test or something right? I mean, if you just walked up to the car, pulled a plug, reconnected it to the plug wire, then held the ground strap of the plug against the engine (some bare metal) and got a buddy to crank it over, you should see spark. A good nice spark.
If you don't, then you've just found your problem - spark.

 

I have heard of people having MSD ignition coils fail quickly or be no good out of the box.

 

when I do the noid test on the injector plugs is it suppose to BLINK on/off or just go dim?

 

no spark!!!..I grounded the plug to the block, the car and no spark. It made one spark when I first cranked and thats it then it just cranked and cranked.


no spark? whats my next move?

 

Ok, no spark.
You have distributor, MSD box (do you? can you bypass it?), ECM and... I think that's it.
Bypass the MSD box if you have one. Try again.

Pop the cap off the dist and see if anything is wonky. Worn/broken rotor, etc. I'm not entirely sure how the ECM controls spark and timing on this setup, so I can't give you any troubleshooting advice on it. But just work methodically. Electricity is coming from the battery, then eventually to the spark plug. Somewhere along the way it's been stopped. Check each part.
Good luck.

 

ok, no spark at the plugs. I tried the same thing with removing the coil wire from the dizzy and hooked up a spark plug on it. I have spark from the coil.

so its once it gets to the dizzy that it looses spark.

COuld it be the module in the dizzy? the dizzy itself? or does the ESC module control spark also?

I really dont have the money to be replacing parts like that cause once I buy them I cant return them.

is there is way to test the each module?

 

To check the module in the "dizzy" Remove distribout cap and rotor.
Turn the ignition key ON and use your DMM (Digital Multi-Meter) to measure supply voltage. First check voltage at the POSITIVE side of the coil by connecting the black lead of your meter to a good ground (engine block) and the red cable to the coil. The meter should read close to battery voltage. Now check voltage at the NEGATIVE side of the coil by moving the red lead from your meter to the negative side of the coil. Your meter should also read close to battery voltage. If everything is good here, continue. If you do not get "close" to battery voltage you need to make sure there is not a power supply problem. Take a jumper wire from the positive post on your battery to the positive side of the coil. If you still do not have a reading close to battery voltage at both sides of the coil the module is energizing the coil when it is not supposed to be doing so, replace the module.
With the DMM still connected to the negative side of the coil you are going to watch the meter while blocking the optics on the module with your credit card. Placing the credit card or other device between the towers on the module blocks the optics. When the optics are blocked the readings on your meter MUST drop below 2-volts. It may be just for an instant, or it may hold below two volts until you unblock the module. Either is OK. But if the voltage does not drop below 2-volts the module has been damaged and must be replaced.
Unblocking the module after step #4 and the voltage reading on your meter MUST return to battery voltage. If the voltage does not instantly jump back up, the module must be replaced.
The cost for a replacement module should run around 70.00

 

well I found out what it was.....after running some more tests..I was checking to see if i get spark from the coil and I had the cap and off...well I noticed the rotor wasnt spinning and I was like oh ****!...I pulled the dizzy out and there was 4 teeth broke off the dizzy gear.


thats just great!...

 

Rock on! Well, kinda, at least you know what it was.
Flush the oil out and try to find those pieces. I imagine they're big enough to get stopped before going into the oil pump anyway, but i'd sleep better at night after fishing 4 chunks out of my oil drain pan.

What cam material are you using, and what dist gear material are you using? Also, what type of oil pump, ie. high volume by chance?

 

yahn i know what you mean.....cam gear I have no idea but I remember telling him what dizzy I had...and he told me that I would be fine...the dizzy gear is an 8531 MSD that goes with the MSD dizzy that I have.

Im thinking and hoping that it didnt chew up the cam gears which I dont think it did after lookin down in there while having someone roll the motor over by hand, Im hoping the weakest gear was the one to break..i just cant see both breaking.

ill go ahead and draint he oil after changin the dizzy gear and seeing if it cranks

 

What cam and cam material?
Remember how that stuff works. If the oil pump creates a schwack of drag it'll put massive strain on that gear and can munch it.
Or if the gear is out of alignment (requires shimming) it could have worn it funny. Check the dist very carefully, did it break due to poor material, or incorrect alignment?

Cam material and dist gear material are most important.